Thread: Escher or Coticule differences

I have just started experimenting with natural stones and have been getting some nice results from a BBW/ Coticule natural I was lucky enough to come across along with a blue Escher. Anybody want to weigh in on the differences in the yellow coticule and the Escher. I have been using the BBW similar to the way I used a 4/8 Norton and am really impressed with the results. I may never use a synthetic again to sharpen it has amazed me Now I am trying to understand the Coti and the Escher as far as using them together or are they essentially the same? I assume they are both finishers in one regard but how are they different.

Originally Posted by Highwayman

I assume they are both finishers in one regard but how are they different.

About $500.00 worth ...........

Kidding aside, the Thuringan/Escher abrasive consists of quartz embedded in chalk, while the coticule's abrasive is garnet. So different abrasives have different cutting characteristics. I think the Escher is solely a finisher, while the coticule can be a sharpener/finisher, and according to some, a bevel setter as well.

Some say that there is no use going to an Escher after a coticule but I have many times in the past and it seemed to me to offer an improvement on the edge. YMMV.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

About $500.00 worth ...........

That got a belly laugh....thanks for the smile!

The Escher is just a superior finisher to the coticule. Of course that assumes a good one and the proper type.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The Escher is just a superior finisher to the coticule. Of course that assumes a good one and the proper type.

It also assumes comparison to an inferior, poor word ... a less than superior coticule.

I've tried a lot of coticules, but I've got two that an Escher/ Thuringian cannot better.

I'm sorry ... Make that three. I've also got a Salm that is easily the equal of any Escher in my collection .. or that I have tried.

Originally Posted by Highwayman

... I have been using the BBW similar to the way I used a 4/8 Norton and am really impressed with the results. I may never use a synthetic again to sharpen it has amazed ...

That’s exactly what it is!

A coticule is surely the most universal hone you can get for honing a straight – and on the other side I think the most underrated and misunderstood hone. Even if there is a lot of information on coticules – here at the forum as well as on the old coticule.be site which is still available – a lot of people who have coticules don’t really know how to use them. A lot people think of a finisher and use the coticules only with water at the end of the progression. Than they are sometimes astonished that the cotis don’t give the fine or sharp edge they expect to get and lay the coticule aside.
If you once really understand how the unicot or better the dilucot method works and can use it for your straight with a good coticule – you can really forget all synthetic hones in the 1 to 8k range.
Of course there are differences in the quality of coticules.
The differences concern mainly two qualities: The speed of honing and the end fineness. There are coticules that work much faster than others. And there are coticules that are finer and give a more sharp or more smooth edge than others. But the whole progression in between bevel setting and maybe a stage equivalent to a 8 K synthetic can basically be done with nearly all coticules. You may want to have a 1K synth for bevel setting, just to have a defined starting point for your progression. But also this is not really needed, also a bevel can be set with a coti. It is all a matter of time and patience.

A thuringian hone is an endfinisher. It can also be used with thick and light slurry at the end of the normal progression, but not in that range, that a coti does (also this is possible, again a question of time and patience, but why do more work than necessary).
Since about 1 year I really did the step to sell all synthetic hones higher than the 1 K and only work with coticules (or special bavarian-frankonian hones – which work the same way than cotis). But I really love the smoothness of a yellow-green thuringian on my straights. Also some coticules don’t give me the maximum sharpness that I like. That’s why most of the time I follow the good work the coticule did with a good thuringian.

The way I read your post you already have a Blue Escher

Go forth and hone form your own opinion

My only suggestion is make sure you try a few different grinds and steels before you even try and and make a determination

Honestly when I get a new stone or hone in it takes me about 100 different razors on it to even think I know what I am doing then I tweak from there...


IMHO -

They are not the same

The idea that you cannot 1 stone hone on a Escher is ludicrous the issue is it COSTS too much to waste the Escher for that when a Synthetic does is so much better, same with Coticules.. Yes I said better, the edge under magnification after a Chosera 1k is awesome to look at, and not bad to shave off either..

As stated above the binder and cutting agents are different between the two so they will react differently to various steels, you might find yourself like me gravitating toward honing certain steels with one and other steels with the other to get the best possible edge.

The feel while honing is also a bit different I find the feel of an Escher to me more "Silky" while honing, while the Coticule I feel gives me more control, might be different for you.


Simple fact: "The more you hone, the more your skills are honed, and the hone magically becomes better"

I was really more impressed with the BBW side of the combo. I honed two razors that had already had bevels set on a Norton 1k. One was a Josesph Rodgers (sheffield) the other a Boker (solingen) both extra hollow ground. Using only water the BBW sharpened them so well I would not have hesitated to strop and shave with either of them. The Coti was icing on the cake. What really impressed me was how fast the BBW was with only water. I was under the impression it was a slow cutter. At any rate I appreciate all the feedback from so many experienced honers. What a siite. Where else can you get an education these days for free.

Originally Posted by Highwayman

The Coti was icing on the cake. What really impressed me was how fast the BBW was with only water.

Where Glen mentioned having to hone 100 razors to get to know the stone, most of us won't have that opportunity, not being in the professional honing/restoration business, we just won't encounter that many razors. That is why I always tell guys to ease up on buying bunches of hones. Your description of your particular coticule/BBW is unique IME. Not that I haven't had some that were 'fast', speaking of the yellow side, but I've never had much luck with the BBW side, or maybe I didn't work with it enough.

I bought a La Veinette 'Kosher' coticule from Ardennes for a hunk of $ when they first began selling on the internet. Got the hone, an 8x2 slate back piece, and I wasn't impressed with it. Messed with it some, but I had so many that I didn't mess with it a lot. Couple years later I did something like 260 round trips, water only, testing every 30 round trips, and got a TI Super Gnome as sharp as I've gotten any razor, on any hone.

Say all that to say, just like Glen says, about finding if a particular razor is 'happier' on a particular hone, working with the hone you have to 'figure it out' is a good idea, rather than having a drawer full of them and buying one after another, never working with any of them enough to really get to know them. IMHO.

To be perfectly honest, I've never used the BBW side much on any of them. I just can't see the point when the yellow side is available, having higher garnet content at a finer size.

And, I made the same mistake as Jimmy when I got my first La Veinnette. I just did not put enough laps into the finishing process. My best LVs are frighteningly fast on slurry, and painfully slow on water alone. Very hard, and quite difficult to raise slurry on .. especially if using a matching LV slurry stone. That stone sat and sat while I experimented with other veins, and other stones from other parts of the world. One day I revisited that stone, determined to learn it, and now that LV, and it's brother can hold their own with any natural stone that I've tried. So, there is definitely something to say for sticking with a stone until it's secrets are unlocked!