has anyone ever used DRAGONS TONGUE(8-10K) and PURPLE LLYN MELYNLLYN(12k)
if so are they any use there a welsh slate as far as I know
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has anyone ever used DRAGONS TONGUE(8-10K) and PURPLE LLYN MELYNLLYN(12k)
if so are they any use there a welsh slate as far as I know
Yes we did a test with them. It should be in advanced honing. They are very nice stones
There are plenty of threads about them. Usually, they are not finisher grade.Quote:
Originally Posted by madpaddy
There is nothing wrong with them as finishers. When we tested them we shaved off of every stone
Are you still using it? New hone enthusiasm is a bad thing that happens to all of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknbleeding
Some of the old yellow lake stones came close to being finishers. The newer ones usually aren't. Both the dragon's tongue and purple yellow lake are in their majority very close to Belgian blue stones in all aspects of honing. And I haven't tried many "15k" belgian blue stones.
On the other hand, it's personal preference what is and isn't a finisher.
Been a while but I also have a Few too many hones. The dragons tongue create an extremely sharp edge is few strokes. Everyone has their preferred way. If I'm in a hurry and don't have time to play I stick with nanawa. But the Welsh slate can be a fine combo and finisher. linen and leather or crox also
I must admit that I tend to agree with Vasilis.
I used to sell these hones - a lot of them, too as I had an agreement with the Inigo Jones company. I tested every one I sold. My estimate of a grit rating on the best ones was around 9k, but a lot of others fell in around the 6k to 8k mark. Whatever, I considered them as not quite a finishing hone, unless you used something like chrome oxide after honing.
The main thing was that the surface on them from the quarry, although flat, was milled a bit coarsely, so this had to be lapped off with a 325 grit diamond hone which improved the stone enormously, and a 600 grit plate made it really quite fine. The ones I used were lapped with different grits on each side. Also, you need to be somewhat adept at honing, or the edge is not what you think it would be.
As for the purple slates, I have tried a lot of old vintage ones in boxes and set in paddles, all the Salmen types (except the dark grey which is a different stone entirely and a finisher for certain) multiple times and a lot of the freshly quarried ones. I can honestly say that not one of them came anywhere near 15k. Maybe 10 0r 11k, but that is pushing it, and some of course come in below this.
In fact the person who sold them on Ebay usd to ask my advice, but then he came up with these nonsensical grit ratings. I know that some people jave used them and think that they are the bees knees, never failing to sing their praises whenever the opportunity arises. Me? - I also take the opportunity whenever I can to try and put the matter in perspective with regards to my own numerous experiences of these hones.
In the end its just a lot of peoples personal experiences combined with how they prepared the various stones, the changeable nature of natural stones, how coarse their beards are and how adept at honing they are. Too many variables to take any ones word, including mine.
Regards,
Neil
I never accepted the grit rating either. I just experimented with then hones. I think for the cost they are wotrth the money. Holy grail? Never but a reasonable set of hones
Assigning an approximate grit rated to most, if not all natural stones is an exercise in futility and these are no different. I tested several of both and in most cases the results were almost interchangeable, the purple cut less efficiently and the DT. I like and agree the BBW comparison.
I have a friend that uses the purple as part of his routine. He gets very nice edges, however he is not sharpening with it so much as he is finishing with it, as he goes to 13K on a synthetic for sharpness and then used the purple hone to get smoothness in the shave. I have used his purple hone, and after an 8K edge and it was very nice and shave-able, however mine is very very slow in going from an 8K to finish, showing of course that naturals are very individual.
I have those stones and really like them. I will generally use them instead of a Coticule, depending on the metal the blade is made from; some like the Coticule better and some like the Welsh stones better.......
Yes, of course it is, I think that most of us know that, and have known it for a very long time. I used to preface all 'grit assignment ratings' with a disclaimer like that (still do in my shop sales) but have found it tiresome to type out for every single post I make here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayamontate
Primarily it is a kind of shorthand - we need a way to compare apples with oranges in this case, and this is a loose way of doing that. It gives you a ball-park kind of guess as to how the hone compares with others.
What else are you going to say to someone hoping to add a natural into a honing sequence - 'uh...don't know where it fits' - that is kind of useless isn't it?! Much better to say that it probably will fit in at so-and-so level, but is a bit slow or a bit fast - that makes for a bit of helpful (but still a little vague) advice.
As far as I am concerned, each natural within a class of hones (eg purple slates) is different or has the capability to be different to another example of the same family of hone stones, and only trying one out for yourself will tell you what its performance is like. But if you are looking for a finisher that has an equivalent performance to a hone of known grit, eg high, it is better to start with a natural that folks have used and assigned a high grit equivalence to rather than another hone that is rated to be a near equivalent to a grit rating in the 5k - 6k mark.
Common sense, really.
Regards,
Neil
I have had these hones for a while now - maybe a couple of years. I initially got them. and tried them out and found them to be 'meh!', so they sat in a drawer for a long time.
I recently decided to give them another tryout and took several razors off a DMT 8K and honed them up. The Welsh slates did a great job polishing the edges. The purple one was better, and produced an edge that shaved close and comfortably.
I'm just an amateur honer, but I don't bother about 'grit ratings' for my finishers. If I get an edge that is shave-sharp and provides a close, comfortable shave, that's all I care about.
I can't make any claims about the general usability of the Welsh slates, but the ones I received are certainly good enough to use as finishers on razors.
That is a sound approach, one that fits in with the '...try it yourself...' ethic I mentioned above. Some people are on a very restricted budget though, and cannot afford to buy a number of hones 'on spec' in an attempt to find a finisher, so a little guidance, no matter how vague or ill-defined, from a reliable person often helps.
Regards,
Neil
Also not too experienced. Only have two coticules to compare to. Find the purple one rather good. Sharper and not quite as smooth as the better coticule. Certainly a nice shave from it and leaves almost mirror finish under 60× magnification.
Yep, that's good advice! Luckily, these hones are available for a reasonable price. As you point out, it's not possible to try everything out, as the costs rise quickly. Some hones are just too 'premium' for me. I always find it nice that you can get a lovely shaving edge without shelling out a huge sum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
Thanks Neil for pointing that out that way....would be great if this statement would be a common understanding!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
For natural stones I personally could care less if they are x,000 grit or xx,000 grit. All I need to know is whether it's a bevel setter, a mid level stone (good kitchen knife edges) or a finishing stone (gives a close and comfortable shave).
Neil I have a question in regard to lapping these hones. After lapping on 325 DMT would it be beneficial for the performance of these hones to lap further on 600 grit and 1000 grit wet /dry paper. I dont have a 600 DMT but do have the wet/dry paper mentioned aboveQuote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
Thanks for your time.
____________________________________________Quote:
Originally Posted by madpaddy
I bought a Dragon's Tongue from Neil Miller several years ago. He estimated the grit rating at around 9k and I agree with that estimate. I also bought a PURPLE LLYN MELYNLLYN from him some time later and it finishes quite nicely with a gradually diluted slurry to plain water. A fair estimate on that stone would be 10k to 12k. Both stones yield a smooth shave with minimum fuss.
Hello to All,
I bought the 3-Stone 'AJ' set.
The Purple LM is the hardest of my three stones, and is the best performer (for me). When I use it, I start on light slurry, and finish on very, very wispy slurry, ending with some spine leading strokes.
The finish and shave off the Purple LM is not bad at all, though I still prefer the edge from my Naniwa 12k SS.
Have fun :)
Best regards
Russ
Interestingly, the unidentified slate that he sent me is a very nice hone. It actually puts a keener edge on a razor than the LM does, but I find the edge to be sightly unrefined and it doesn't match my shaving preferences. So what I do is a progression from the DT -> LM -> Unidentified slate and then go back to the LM for a few strokes on a very light slurry to tone down the edge a bit. This has resulted in edges that really are excellent to shave off.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhatMan
Neil, I have to thank you, you are one of the most influential people in my hone searching with your notes and help answering my questions. And whenever I have to give an approximate grit rating on a natural, I always try to use your guidelines for determining that abstract concept of estimated grit on naturals. Truly, I'm glad you are around.
Now, about the dark grey salmen type of stone that is a finisher, do you have the time to help us with identifying that type of stone? Do you happen to have a photo or description about it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
thanks for all the replys when I stared the thread I didn't think it would take off as quick ;)
these are the hones I was looking at 200mm X 76mm Welsh SET OF 2 Sharpening Stones Knife Blade Chisel Plane | eBay
as what I read in part of the thread that not everyone has a big budget id be one of those people...
im just looking for a stone that will leave my razor good and sharp for a good shave
regards aran
I have the 3 hone set with a rubbing stone for each hone and I really like them. the stone described as 15K is gives me edges similar to my Y/G Escher. YMMV
from what I read they seem to be worth the money think ill give them a try its all in the learning
I would suggest you to get a Chinese finishing stone. Cheap and the chances to get a finisher are much much higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by madpaddy
I have the 3 stone set, and I like to use them every once in a while with my british razors, just for fun. I don't like them on harder steel razors, but they work fine on most softer. Incidentially, the Llyn Mellynlyn is also known as Yellow Lake Oilstone, andis generally assessed to be around the 4k mark. I use it before the dragon's tongue. Ymmv :)
I don't have one myself but IIRC there have been numerous posts about this hone, also called PHIG, Chinese 12K, and the gist of it is that their estimated grit sizes quite variable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasilis
Indeed, this is the one. I have used plenty of them over the years, and strangely, all of them were excellent finishers. It might be luck, still, they are good stones, cheap, and worst case scenario it will be like a very good slate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
I had the 2 stone set, when i got some razors honed i sent them to the person who used to hone my razors and his assessment was that the grit ratings were higher than his results would suggest.
These stones do have a healthy folowing (or at least used to).
Dear Vasilis,Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasilis
Thanks for the kind words!
I have had about three of them (dark grey type sold under the 'yello lake' brand), all sold now though. They have no especial features other than a faint swirl or banding, so faint that it only comes to light when the stone is wet and the surace has been very finely lapped (60 grit at least) - even then, you wonder whether you are really seeing it.
They really reminded me of the Cambrock Silkstone, and were about the same in terms of being a fine finishing hone.
When I was researching Albert Berl Salmen I came across a listing of all the mines in Wales which had something to do with or which were owned outright by his company. The following is a list of mines with which the A B Salmen firm or the Executors of A B Salmen had something to do with at one time or another:
Moel Siabod
Melynllyn
Idwal
Nantgwynant
Dolwyddelen
Cwmyffynan
There is a list of what type of rock the quarries were producing in the 1800s, which I copied and which I cannot find at the present, but in the notes from one quarry it says that siliceous slate and calcareous siltstone were mined for making hone stones, and that the slate was purple and the calcareous siltstone was a very dark grey.
We must be conscious of the fact that the classification of rock type comes from the 1800s and if it is the word of the mine owner and not a geologist it may well be wrong, as this type of siltstone can have some large inclusions in it. A large amount of it - if not all - comes from the ancient Cambrian layers in Wales, which brings to mind the Cambrock ("CAMB-rian ROCK) silkstone, and the possibility that they are one and the same thing.
Regards,
Neil
Ricky,
The sandpaper - providing it is wet and dry and not the capenter's type of sandpaper which releases a lot of grit - will be fine.
I am a bit obsessive about it, and hated the idea that even a few loose grains would get embedded in the hone, so I used the sandpaper on a few other jobs first to wear the surface a bit and get rid of any loosely adhering grit, but I suppose you can get away without that step. Frequently flush the sadpaper.
I also used to use different lapidary grits on a stout sheet of glass (120, 220, 320, 400, 600) but you will find that this inevitably leaves a slight rounding of the hone, especially at the edges, so once I had used 320 grit I switched to a 400 and then 600 grit diamond hone, but these of course a way more expensive than wet'n'dry sandpaper or grits.
Regards,
Neil
Neil,
Thank you for your input and knowledge on this matter. The wet and dry sand paper I use is the proper wet and dry sand paper (Norton). I will certainly try the 600 grit 800 grit 1000 grit progression after the 325 DMT, and see what results I can get with the DT and Melynlynn hones. At best I will get an improved edge on my razors, and worst case nothing much will change.
I will also take your other tip regarding some light work with the various grades of wet and dry to minimise any loose grit particles embedding themselves into the hone.
Hope to be reporting back soon on this trial.
I have a very hard and fine black bulgarian slate and it works on a slurry 6 - 7 K levell . Finishing on plain water give a 8 - 10 k level edge . Here is the trick i learn from practice - when i use a hard slate for finishing i lapped , and polish the one side to maximum .
When you working on dilueting slurry , when you go to the plain water , stop and reverse the hone on the polished side . the finnish of the hone is important in the final step of finishing . Ading Lather or liquid soap , is important for the final the finish .
Or you can put a smal pinch of Crox or jewelers rouge on the stone and finish like this . It gives a kick on the edge , ha ha ha .
I have try it, with crox only , i still canot get my hands on the red thing .
I had both the "15k" black stone, and the purple slate that AJ sells. I thought they were fine for the money, but like everyone else here, not as fine as touted. The killer in the states is the shipping cost.
I sold the black one (in my case, it wasn't any finer than the purple), oiled the purple one and used it on tools for a while and then eventually sold it.
It would be ideal if they were available for $45 or so for a big one over here, but $35 kills it and when you decide you want to dump your stone, people think of it as a $45 stone and you lose money. That sucks.
They were both capable of finishing a razor, but I'd describe them as fairly coarse on slurry and slow without it. Decent for the price.
You could ask for not signed royal mail. The seller is friendly, I don't think he will reject it. It's cheaper.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Those chiping cost are unhumain and kill everything good in the straight razor suplies shoping :cry::banghead:
I can almost afford ,many things , but when i see the chiping i turn back .
Have these stones. Like the purple and the finer one. When I received them, the grit ratings written on them were 8000 dragons tongue, 10000 lm and 12000 welshingian (don't bite me, you know which I mean). Seller is helpful good stones IMO but even he isn't consistent with his ratings.