General information about Atago natural Japanese hones

Hello Gentlemen,

I would like to know what there is to know about the Atago (Atagoyama?) Jnats.
As far as I know, they are in the center of the Kyoto mines, not a western or eastern mine, and because of the type of layers, the stones are usually quite thick.
I haven't seen any classification on layers, but this could be because they are somewhat rarer than the rest of the mines.
Aside from the above, are they generally stones that can be used for razor finishing or they are not really suitable for this purpose? (YMMV, I know) Do they have the usual characteristics of Japanese Kyoto stones, like being fast and offering a friendly edge whether it's a finisher or prefinisher? Do they have more similarities with western mine stones (Nakayama, Ozuku, Shobu) or eastern mines (Ohira, Naturaki)?
Like the other types of stones, if available, do we prefer the yellower stones instead of the bland grey or dark ones?
I would appreciate it if anyone has experience with this type of stone and is willing to share his knowledge.
Thank you for your time,

Vasilis

They vary in softness just like any other Jnat.
I have one that is very hard but have not played with it in a very long time.
I'll give it a go and report back in a few days.

Never had one, but I've seen a lot of tomae-ish looking green stones that are really large and that don't cost that much.

I think I saw one last year that was about $500 for a 4kg stone. Try finding a decent stone of that size in okudo suita.

I've tried pretty much all of the big and inexpensive stones (relatively - if $400 for a large stone is inexpensive) and I haven't really loved anything that wasn't mined and sold as a razor stone.

Take a look at this one...http://www.thebestthings.com/newtool...ne_atago_1.jpg

(not affiliated with dealer, just a little stunned at the size of the stone - $295 for a stone that's 220 x 78 x 66. It must weigh 3 kgs, and it's $295. It could be a decent stone, but if it's available for that price with a sticker from the miner, I'd proceed with caution - if there was something really good about it at that size, the miner and exporter would both ask a lot more).

It costs half as much, roughly, as an ohira tomae stone, and I've never been really wowed by anything that looks similar from ohira or shoubudani. The Ohira Tomae of that type are sold by some woodworking retailers, and for about $400 for a #30 size stone. They are not fast cutting, and not really that fine, and not hard enough to hold their particles in place with tools, so I'm not sure what their virtue is.

(I have had good results with the very hard grey shoubu stones that have been retailed recently, though - just not the stones that are green and a little softer).

Every mine that makes really dense poreless stones will come up with something that can be used for razors, even if it's almost non cutting and is more of a nagura plate, but the stones that are highly regarded are the real treats (the better stones that were sold as razor stones and that can cut well but still very finely, and for tools, stones like shinden and okudo suita, that have strong cutting power but leave a very fine edge for the cutting power they have).

Maybe I shouldn't be such a party pooper, maybe there are good of each type, but I am a weary (and now wary) buyer because of buying a lot of mediocre large stones that probably would be appreciated by someone who is looking for kasumi finish on a knife, but that aren't very good for tools or razors.

In my experience, it is easy to get a lot of so-so stones and make them work, but the really nice stones that have superb action, good cutting power and great unformity (without being tiny koppa) can be fairly hard to come by.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

Maybe I shouldn't be such a party pooper, maybe there are good of each type, but I am a weary (and now wary) buyer because of buying a lot of mediocre large stones that probably would be appreciated by someone who is looking for kasumi finish on a knife, but that aren't very good for tools or razors.

In my experience, it is easy to get a lot of so-so stones and make them work, but the really nice stones that have superb action, good cutting power and great unformity (without being tiny koppa) can be fairly hard to come by.

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I second that, and not only on Jnats. On every natural stone available. All we have to do is hope. Or pray. Or both. And of course, pay!

I have a large "red aoto" which is according to the seller, an extra coarse Atagoyama akepin. It's pretty typical of coarser JNats, not that fast compared to a synthetic, probably in the 1-2k range compared to a synthetic. I got it for knives and possibly low range work on razors, and while it does work for razors, it's just slow compared to any quality synthetic.

If you're looking for a 24 size stone that's a top notch razor finisher, then yes, you're talking money unless maybe it's a hard gray stone.

Cheers, Steve

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

Hello Gentlemen,

I would like to know what there is to know about the Atago (Atagoyama?) Jnats.
As far as I know, they are in the center of the Kyoto mines, not a western or eastern mine, and because of the type of layers, the stones are usually quite thick.
I haven't seen any classification on layers, but this could be because they are somewhat rarer than the rest of the mines.
Aside from the above, are they generally stones that can be used for razor finishing or they are not really suitable for this purpose? (YMMV, I know) Do they have the usual characteristics of Japanese Kyoto stones, like being fast and offering a friendly edge whether it's a finisher or prefinisher? Do they have more similarities with western mine stones (Nakayama, Ozuku, Shobu) or eastern mines (Ohira, Naturaki)?
Like the other types of stones, if available, do we prefer the yellower stones instead of the bland grey or dark ones?
I would appreciate it if anyone has experience with this type of stone and is willing to share his knowledge.
Thank you for your time,

Vasilis

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Wouldn't say layers- it's chu-ishi Naori so medium particle size, and not gousa (layered stone) they are potato stones meaning they are good at being consistent. Large homogeneous blocks (it's easy to be consistent if you don't dare perfection) - but chu-ishi naori a razor hone? not on my watch. :jedi:

In all seriousness- it is possible. I know- I have chu-ishi Naori stones that are fine for razors (namely yellow ones ;) )- but I would not grab them for razors with my choices. they are (nishi-mono - western mine(s)) by ohira western side of kyoto/ Mt Atago, not as good though in my opinion (for razors). Ohira has phenomenal range in stone.
Closed in '82 I believe. Beautiful place to visit, big stones can be had for cheap that are consistent-

Something else I would like to ask, and I think it is somehow important, if the Imanishi labels have a meaning.
On their stamp about the stone's grade, like the link from Dave http://www.thebestthings.com/newtool...ne_atago_1.jpg (thanks Dave, I discovered it with your help) I have seen two stamps; the 一本線 and the XXX品 (I can't read these handwritten like "fluid" kanji, not even find them by radicals).
The stones with the 一本線 grade label are from 20% to higher than 50% more expensive than the stones with the XXX品 stamp (the link above has it).
So, is there a difference between them? They appear to be taking it seriously.

Also, Ohira is a western mine stone? I thought it was an eastern mine stone. Anyway, I don't think the classification is that important.
So Jnat-san, you think that the stones advertised as Atago, aside from finishing qualities, are not fast enough generally?

My comments were in no way about Imanishi-San, he is a very honorable and nice man. I never was referring to him, or his labels. He handles stone from many mines btw, like most. I don't read much into stamps- just like you should not read too much into others opinions of mines, there are generalizations and subjective experiences with one stone to the next- my focus is mostly on acquiring Lv 4 and 4+ stones with 5+ fines, and Iromono and Kiita- these are most of my favorite stones. Just like we (hopefully) aren't all collecting the same favorite razor - a lot of people like really hard 5+ 5++stones- they're good and I have many, but hard stones don't get me nearly as excited. (except when they are fast) Ohira is western.

-Every stone must be tested and honed on by the customer- In Japan that's easy, outside-- only ever buy from sellers who advertise returns/exchanges for any reason (even if the stone is fine-just not for you) in a YMMV area like honing with something very very variable: nature. Marketing and stereotypes serve a function but do not determine the nature, they are at best rough averages. Do you know how much more the best in 100
'best' quality cutting kiita of the same color, saturation and mine cost? Maybe up 20% more without stamps- usually no more, but the best kiita can perform more than twice as well as the average. How do you find it? you hone- you look at the togidoro (slurry with iron filings) The yellow color alone drives prices through the roof, like stamps can do here. Every vendor has stamps, any street dealer can make them and procure them... our photocopy machines are designed in a partnership with the Federal Reserve and Xerox to leave micro 'thumbprints' (unique serial number specific ID's) to trace forgeries to explicit machine. Time spent learning a stamp will not help you to get a better stone I'm afraid.

In my experience- the most beautiful women don't wear makeup. Older mined stones are commonly much better than newer ones- anyone who disagrees has likely never played dodge ball, and I'd ask them "If quality is truly equal through time, and has not degraded: Then when would you say they're going to open these mines back up?"

link for printer forensic tracking dot matrix: https://www.eff.org/pages/list-print...-tracking-dots

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Originally Posted by jnats

My comments were in no way about Imanishi-San, he is a very honorable and nice man. I never was referring to him, or his labels. He handles stone from many mines btw, like most miners. I don't read much into stamps- just like you should not read too much into others opinions of mines, there are generalizations and subjective experiences with one stone to the next- my focus is mostly on acquiring Lv 4 and 4+ stones with 5+ fines, and Iromono and Kiita- these are most of my favorite stones. Just like we (hopefully) aren't all collecting the same favorite razor - a lot of people like really hard 5+ 5++stones- they're good and I have many, but hard stones don't get me nearly as excited. (except when they are fast) Ohira is western.

-Every stone must be tested and honed on by the customer- In Japan that's easy, outside-- only ever buy from sellers who advertise returns/exchanges for any reason (even if the stone is fine-just not for you) in a YMMV area like honing with something very very variable: nature. Marketing and stereotypes serve a function but do not determine the nature, they are at best rough averages. Do you know how much more the best in 100
'best' quality cutting kiita of the same color, saturation and mine cost? Maybe up 20% more without stamps- usually no more, but the best kiita can perform more than twice as well as the average. How do you find it? you hone- you look at the togidoro (slurry with iron filings) The yellow color alone drives prices through the roof, like stamps can do here. Every vendor has stamps, any street dealer can make them and procure them... our photocopy machines are designed in a partnership with the Federal Reserve and Xerox to leave micro 'thumbprints' (unique serial number specific ID's) to trace forgeries to explicit machine. Time spent learning a stamp will not help you to get a better stone I'm afraid.

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I agree with you. Stamps don't mean something to me, but the two types for classification on "grade" of a stone, Imanishi uses piqued my interest.
Unfortunately, stones mostly covered with labels lose some of them, or appear less than clear after a little use, and some sellers end up unwilling to take them back, but again, I don't care about the labels but the stones. If this grade classification has a meaning on Imanishi stones is what I want to know, and I know that he is an honorable man.

Just as a follow up to this, I see that stephan has a nice video using one to sharpen kiridashi, kogatana...whatever a japanese traditional knife is called.

Stephan, any thoughts about it compared to some of the more expensive stones like nakayama, okudo suita, etc.?

Looks like it does OK with kogatana, but I can never tell if that's the jigane when someone is sharpening something. All of my stones cut jigane fine, of course, they get separated from each other in speed when hagane is harder than 62 hardness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLuNojL6Crw

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Originally Posted by DaveW

Just as a follow up to this, I see that stephan has a nice video using one to sharpen kiridashi, kogatana...whatever a japanese traditional knife is called.

Stephan, any thoughts about it compared to some of the more expensive stones like nakayama, okudo suita, etc.?

Looks like it does OK with kogatana, but I can never tell if that's the jigane when someone is sharpening something. All of my stones cut jigane fine, of course, they get separated from each other in speed when hagane is harder than 62 hardness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLuNojL6Crw

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Dave,
the stone leaves mirror finish on a hagane, but I have not done extensive testing on razors. I did one long time ago so I can't remember what the result was.

My opinion only, of course, but every hard finisher I've had that will refuse to release particles will sharpen a razor functionally. It's the ones that are on the borderline of hardness or that will finish a razor on a little slurry that are the real treat.

I wonder how much variability there is from one atagoyama stone to another, as they are fairly uniform looking, but as I mentioned previously, I had a $400 run of the mill ohira tomae that a knife lover would love, but it wasn't much for finishing chisels and it would've been mediocre on razors.

I felt guilty about selling it and sold it to a guy for pennies.

I'd LOVE to buy one of the large atagoyama stones myself, but I know enough about how I operate to know that I'd sell it for cheap if I didn't like it - out of guilt. A horrible trait to have ...expectation of perfection and guilt in reselling if it's not there.

[QUOTE=Vasilis;1573693]Something else I would like to ask, and I think it is somehow important, if the Imanishi labels have a meaning.
On their stamp about the stone's grade, like the link from Dave http://www.thebestthings.com/newtool...ne_atago_1.jpg (thanks Dave, I discovered it with your help) I have seen two stamps; the 一本線 and the XXX品 (I can't read these handwritten like "fluid" kanji, not even find them by radicals).
The stones with the 一本線 grade label are from 20% to higher than 50% more expensive than the stones with the XXX品 stamp (the link above has it).
So, is there a difference between them? They appear to be taking it seriously.

QUOTE]

Japanese is beyond me, and speaking Japanese is all related the subject at hand. For instance the word with the same kanji "Hon" can mean things like a book too.

About Imanishi-san, a member of the Kyoto Toishi Miners Union. He is very respectable, and knowledgeable. The ink stamps he uses are pretty standard and within the industry the wording on the stamps is really more of a suggestion of the quality or the origin or the size. Grade 24 is a stone industry designation for a size within some parameters, but obviously the word Hon can be uses freely by any miner or wholesaler. Maroyama has it's own stamp for their active mine and is it unlikely that anyone in the business would infringe on that name, the same with Ohira. Anyone is free these days to use the name Nakayama, or Shinden or Okudo and to have stamps made up with those old names because there really isn't a Nakayama mine anymore, or an Oozuku mine. Imanishi owns Nakayama and Okudo and Oozuku stamps, I bought a stone from him that was stamped Nakayama. I think that JNS buys most of their stones from Inmanishi-san, and am guessing that he stamps up everything including the wooden boxes for JNS before they are shipped.

A couple of years ago the Kyoto Toishi Miners Union held a meeting for their last 8 remaining members and the subject came up about the underground use of ink stamps that were popping up and they decided that there was no harm and no foul in using these old names of designated closed mines, and that if improper use took place that there was not code or police to enforce the situation. So after that Hitomi-san of Kameoka and Imanishi-san of Kyoto and the Hatanaka Toishi Company and I suspect that a nephew of Kato-san are all using ink stamps beyond those of their own companies names logo. Of course Nakaoka-san aka. 330Mate does this too although he is not and will never be a member of the Union

The actual grading of stones, sorting sizes and ascribing qualities that take into account like flaws in shape and composition is first done by the miners who usually cut up and lapped the tops of the stones. This categorizes the stone so when offered to the wholesalers in Kyoto or Osaka both parties are talking about the same thing. The wholesalers then are now and were in the old days the main ink stamp guys who used ink stamps like advertising. These stamps also aided the retailers in promoting their products, and some stores even added their own stamps too. So we shouldn't look at these ink stamps on the stones as the words of the stone gods in regards to purity or cutting/abrasive qualities. They might suggest the correct size, or allude to a strata or type of stone, or maybe even to their quality like #1 or #2 quality. Lots and lots of stones are marked "suita" but hardly any stones are marked "tomae or karasu or kiita" because these are only names used by the miners or wholesalers.

In the old days there were distinct divisions between miner, wholesaler and retailer and the general user public. The miners did not sell directly to the public, nor did the wholesaler. For an orderly society each division was allowed to operate freely within and to make an honest profit. As the mines closed that division was eliminated, many of the wholesalers lost their source of supply so many of them are gone and some now operate retail stores, and the general public can buy internationally and cut out many of those divisions. The use of ink stamps has followed suit.

Regarding the Atago, Ohira and Maruoyama mines and others out near Kameoka and also a few mines to the north east of Kyoto towards Fukui and Lake Biwa. These are recent mines (1800s - 1900s) but I doubt that they were recently found. I think that Maruoyama was more recent, but those other mines closer into Mt. Atago most likely were scouted out a long, long time ago by miners looking for that next Mother Lode similar to how Nakayama turned out to be. The Kameoka is only about 12 miles from the city limits of Kyoto and I am sure that Walkers, buy who are out walking and looking for game and foraging in that area were always looking for stones which on the ridges can lay bare.

So next I ask, why now, why is it that these more recent mines that have only existed for the last one or two hundred years, and why are they still producing stones. I speculate that it has to do with the need and the quality. The famous mines are now closed, so that takes care of the need, new stones are still needed to hit the market. The quality part of this, and I don't want to be insulting, but the quality of the Kameoka mines is different than the stones from the closed up famous mines. Ohira lucked out because they have an excellent layer of uchigumori although their suita lacks the cutting power that Okudo or Narutaki or Nakayama had. Maruoyama has all of the strata but the stones that I have tried from there were slow and tended to polish more than they cut. I have only tested one Atagoyama stone.

I used to buy from Ohira, but that was when he had a deep selection and I bought some Nakayama stones from him that he got in exchange for his bulldozer work with Kato_san in the 1960s. I still have a cordial relationship with Ishihara'san. The testing of the Maruoyama or the Atagoyama did not inspire me to buy any of their stones. When the famous eastern mines closed the western mines filled a gap, but in the last half of the 20th and now in the 21st century the performance demands in Japan are lowered in the trades, and foreign buyers don't always have a chance to test stones before purchase like they do in Japan, so these western mines will still maintain some business because they are really unique in this modern world. Maruoyama are really trying hard, and they are aided by scientific testing too. I do wish them all luck.

Alex

Here is a quick explanation of the Kanji from your stone posting.
Alex

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

Here is a quick explanation of the Kanji from the stone posting.
一　　= ichi, the number one
本 = hon or pon as in counting sticks ipon, nipon, sanpon (stick #1, stick #2, stick #3)
正　= sei or sho　correct
本 =hon, origin or Hon as in Honma, the mountain of Honma is more correct in this usage
山　= yama mountain
本　= hon, correct
格　= kaku, original
品　＝ hin thing

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Another way to look at the kanji for Hon 本 is in the use for the word of Japan, it can be spelled in English Nipon or Nihon.

" Here is a quick explanation of the Kanji from the stone posting.
一　= ichi, the number one
本 = hon or pon as in counting sticks ipon, nipon, sanpon (stick #1, stick #2, stick #3)
正　= sei or sho　correct
本 =hon, origin or Hon as in Honma, the mountain of Honma is more correct in this usage
山　= yama mountain
本　= hon, correct
格　= kaku, original
品　＝ hin thing






Another way to look at the kanji for Hon 本 is in the use for the word of Japan, it can be spelled in English Nipon or Nihon. "


Thank you Alex. When seeing written on a screen, or with a pen/pencil I recognize them, but not when hand written with a brush or these stamps. I'm familiar with kanji, like a 6 or 10 year old Japanese kid :p I know 6 out of the 7 above kanji, they are some of the most used ones.

I was mainly wondering if the two different stamps Imanishi company uses about grades denote two different qualities of stones, with the one saying that this stone is a better grade than the other with the different stamp.
So, the one says "the original one" (I think) and the second says something similar I assume, (their kanji are not present above). A dead end in the stamps, but useful information about the nature and history of the stones nonetheless.
Thank you gentlemen.

I see the ink stamps more as decoration than anything. If Imanishi-san has a distinct attribution from one stone to another it is probably subtle. The price should reflect a difference in quality if you buy directly from him. You can be sure the he would not sell a $1000 stone for $400. And really pure stones he might be setting aside for a prefered customer. So if you buy directly from him you should get your value. You have to understand though that if you are talking Atagoyama or Maruoyama stones, it is my opinion that a big $700 stone is not going to blow your socks off. The VERY BEST ink stamp maybe also could be stamped with NUMBER ONE QUALITY.

In Japan you can try and test stones out, that was and still is the norm. Qualtiy and usefulness need to be judged with your own tools in hand. Steels do react differently with certain stones.

Alex

Thanks for taking the time to write all of that out, Alex.

I still thought about getting one of the big stones for their sheer size, and hoping that even if it was slow it'd be a fine cutter, but decided against it because it's still a risk.

We can get away with more these days because of all of the synthetics, which makes a slow cutting fine stone a little more OK than it would've been before.

I've been letdown, as I mentioned above, though, that even with something that's reasonably well regarded as a "decent" stone, like an ohira tomae, if you get one of those types of stones, it's probably not going to be fast. If it ends up not being fine, then you're really stuck if you don't want to use it to sharpen knives or something that don't need to have that super-fine edge.

Once you get the taste of a fast-cutting suita from one of the good mines, or a very fine stone with some cutting power...it ruins you for mediocre stones.

I think a good fine and fast kiita is the key for your problem . As you see the fine wellow slurry darkens in a seconds you will forgot the suita ha a ha ha

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Originally Posted by RusenBG

I think a good fine and fast kiita is the key for your problem . As you see the fine wellow slurry darkens in a seconds you will forgot the suita ha a ha ha

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That means you haven't tried a good okudo suita (preferably white). But I agree, kiita are good contenders for speed.

No i havent had the chance to play with a suita wet . They tell they difee a lot in a quality .Maybe one day i had the chance to try
There is only one small obsticle on my way as theprises of the good suitas go hight in the sky for now ha ha ha