Thread: General information about Atago natural Japanese hones

Hello Gentlemen,

I would like to know what there is to know about the Atago (Atagoyama?) Jnats.
As far as I know, they are in the center of the Kyoto mines, not a western or eastern mine, and because of the type of layers, the stones are usually quite thick.
I haven't seen any classification on layers, but this could be because they are somewhat rarer than the rest of the mines.
Aside from the above, are they generally stones that can be used for razor finishing or they are not really suitable for this purpose? (YMMV, I know) Do they have the usual characteristics of Japanese Kyoto stones, like being fast and offering a friendly edge whether it's a finisher or prefinisher? Do they have more similarities with western mine stones (Nakayama, Ozuku, Shobu) or eastern mines (Ohira, Naturaki)?
Like the other types of stones, if available, do we prefer the yellower stones instead of the bland grey or dark ones?
I would appreciate it if anyone has experience with this type of stone and is willing to share his knowledge.
Thank you for your time,

Vasilis

They vary in softness just like any other Jnat.
I have one that is very hard but have not played with it in a very long time.
I'll give it a go and report back in a few days.

Never had one, but I've seen a lot of tomae-ish looking green stones that are really large and that don't cost that much.

I think I saw one last year that was about $500 for a 4kg stone. Try finding a decent stone of that size in okudo suita.

I've tried pretty much all of the big and inexpensive stones (relatively - if $400 for a large stone is inexpensive) and I haven't really loved anything that wasn't mined and sold as a razor stone.

Take a look at this one...http://www.thebestthings.com/newtool...ne_atago_1.jpg

(not affiliated with dealer, just a little stunned at the size of the stone - $295 for a stone that's 220 x 78 x 66. It must weigh 3 kgs, and it's $295. It could be a decent stone, but if it's available for that price with a sticker from the miner, I'd proceed with caution - if there was something really good about it at that size, the miner and exporter would both ask a lot more).

It costs half as much, roughly, as an ohira tomae stone, and I've never been really wowed by anything that looks similar from ohira or shoubudani. The Ohira Tomae of that type are sold by some woodworking retailers, and for about $400 for a #30 size stone. They are not fast cutting, and not really that fine, and not hard enough to hold their particles in place with tools, so I'm not sure what their virtue is.

(I have had good results with the very hard grey shoubu stones that have been retailed recently, though - just not the stones that are green and a little softer).

Every mine that makes really dense poreless stones will come up with something that can be used for razors, even if it's almost non cutting and is more of a nagura plate, but the stones that are highly regarded are the real treats (the better stones that were sold as razor stones and that can cut well but still very finely, and for tools, stones like shinden and okudo suita, that have strong cutting power but leave a very fine edge for the cutting power they have).

Maybe I shouldn't be such a party pooper, maybe there are good of each type, but I am a weary (and now wary) buyer because of buying a lot of mediocre large stones that probably would be appreciated by someone who is looking for kasumi finish on a knife, but that aren't very good for tools or razors.

In my experience, it is easy to get a lot of so-so stones and make them work, but the really nice stones that have superb action, good cutting power and great unformity (without being tiny koppa) can be fairly hard to come by.

Originally Posted by DaveW

Maybe I shouldn't be such a party pooper, maybe there are good of each type, but I am a weary (and now wary) buyer because of buying a lot of mediocre large stones that probably would be appreciated by someone who is looking for kasumi finish on a knife, but that aren't very good for tools or razors.

In my experience, it is easy to get a lot of so-so stones and make them work, but the really nice stones that have superb action, good cutting power and great unformity (without being tiny koppa) can be fairly hard to come by.

I second that, and not only on Jnats. On every natural stone available. All we have to do is hope. Or pray. Or both. And of course, pay!

I have a large "red aoto" which is according to the seller, an extra coarse Atagoyama akepin. It's pretty typical of coarser JNats, not that fast compared to a synthetic, probably in the 1-2k range compared to a synthetic. I got it for knives and possibly low range work on razors, and while it does work for razors, it's just slow compared to any quality synthetic.

If you're looking for a 24 size stone that's a top notch razor finisher, then yes, you're talking money unless maybe it's a hard gray stone.

Cheers, Steve

Originally Posted by Vasilis

Hello Gentlemen,

I would like to know what there is to know about the Atago (Atagoyama?) Jnats.
As far as I know, they are in the center of the Kyoto mines, not a western or eastern mine, and because of the type of layers, the stones are usually quite thick.
I haven't seen any classification on layers, but this could be because they are somewhat rarer than the rest of the mines.
Aside from the above, are they generally stones that can be used for razor finishing or they are not really suitable for this purpose? (YMMV, I know) Do they have the usual characteristics of Japanese Kyoto stones, like being fast and offering a friendly edge whether it's a finisher or prefinisher? Do they have more similarities with western mine stones (Nakayama, Ozuku, Shobu) or eastern mines (Ohira, Naturaki)?
Like the other types of stones, if available, do we prefer the yellower stones instead of the bland grey or dark ones?
I would appreciate it if anyone has experience with this type of stone and is willing to share his knowledge.
Thank you for your time,

Vasilis

Wouldn't say layers- it's chu-ishi Naori so medium particle size, and not gousa (layered stone) they are potato stones meaning they are good at being consistent. Large homogeneous blocks (it's easy to be consistent if you don't dare perfection) - but chu-ishi naori a razor hone? not on my watch.

In all seriousness- it is possible. I know- I have chu-ishi Naori stones that are fine for razors (namely yellow ones )- but I would not grab them for razors with my choices. they are (nishi-mono - western mine(s)) by ohira western side of kyoto/ Mt Atago, not as good though in my opinion (for razors). Ohira has phenomenal range in stone.
Closed in '82 I believe. Beautiful place to visit, big stones can be had for cheap that are consistent-

Something else I would like to ask, and I think it is somehow important, if the Imanishi labels have a meaning.
On their stamp about the stone's grade, like the link from Dave http://www.thebestthings.com/newtool...ne_atago_1.jpg (thanks Dave, I discovered it with your help) I have seen two stamps; the 一本線 and the XXX品 (I can't read these handwritten like "fluid" kanji, not even find them by radicals).
The stones with the 一本線 grade label are from 20% to higher than 50% more expensive than the stones with the XXX品 stamp (the link above has it).
So, is there a difference between them? They appear to be taking it seriously.

Also, Ohira is a western mine stone? I thought it was an eastern mine stone. Anyway, I don't think the classification is that important.
So Jnat-san, you think that the stones advertised as Atago, aside from finishing qualities, are not fast enough generally?

My comments were in no way about Imanishi-San, he is a very honorable and nice man. I never was referring to him, or his labels. He handles stone from many mines btw, like most. I don't read much into stamps- just like you should not read too much into others opinions of mines, there are generalizations and subjective experiences with one stone to the next- my focus is mostly on acquiring Lv 4 and 4+ stones with 5+ fines, and Iromono and Kiita- these are most of my favorite stones. Just like we (hopefully) aren't all collecting the same favorite razor - a lot of people like really hard 5+ 5++stones- they're good and I have many, but hard stones don't get me nearly as excited. (except when they are fast) Ohira is western.

-Every stone must be tested and honed on by the customer- In Japan that's easy, outside-- only ever buy from sellers who advertise returns/exchanges for any reason (even if the stone is fine-just not for you) in a YMMV area like honing with something very very variable: nature. Marketing and stereotypes serve a function but do not determine the nature, they are at best rough averages. Do you know how much more the best in 100
'best' quality cutting kiita of the same color, saturation and mine cost? Maybe up 20% more without stamps- usually no more, but the best kiita can perform more than twice as well as the average. How do you find it? you hone- you look at the togidoro (slurry with iron filings) The yellow color alone drives prices through the roof, like stamps can do here. Every vendor has stamps, any street dealer can make them and procure them... our photocopy machines are designed in a partnership with the Federal Reserve and Xerox to leave micro 'thumbprints' (unique serial number specific ID's) to trace forgeries to explicit machine. Time spent learning a stamp will not help you to get a better stone I'm afraid.

In my experience- the most beautiful women don't wear makeup. Older mined stones are commonly much better than newer ones- anyone who disagrees has likely never played dodge ball, and I'd ask them "If quality is truly equal through time, and has not degraded: Then when would you say they're going to open these mines back up?"