Gents, I'm looking for a natural bevel setter but drawing a blank. Do you know if there are any consistently good natural bevel setters and where to get on from?
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Gents, I'm looking for a natural bevel setter but drawing a blank. Do you know if there are any consistently good natural bevel setters and where to get on from?
Nope .
i do not own this stone. Perhaps someone who does can chip in
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Thanks for the fast responses guys, my corticule is doing most of the grunt work at the moment but I'm just wasting good time and stone. I'd like a natural hone just to keep the theme. I did find an old thread about an Italian stone but can't find much info on it
I do have an Ikarashi. It promises a lot and fails like the rest. It probably would work for kitchen knives but it's not a viable bevel setter for razors.
Probably nothing short of 4 times as much $ as a synth bevel setter. A super fast dedicated coticule or a JNat suita will work if setting the bevel is all you need, they'll both peel the steel off your edge pretty quickly.
I've had the coticule and do have the suita(s), but my bevel setters are either a 2K or 5K Shapton Pro.
Cheers, Steve
Supposedly, the red Amakusa is around 800 grit, so it could be used to set bevels. However, from what I've read, like with most coarser naturals it works much better with knives, where pressure can be applied in a way that can't with razors. It isn't super expensive, so you could try it if you want, but there's no guarantee it'll work well.
Please realize that every opinion about natural hones is dependent on a very small sample size--the ones that we have used. It may not apply to every single rock of a particular type.
That said...
The red Amakusa will chew up your edges. It is not of use for razors because of the variability of the grit in the hone.
The white Amakusa is much less aggressive but still can damage edges while failing to form a proper bevel.
I don't know anything about them and have never tried them, but have always wonderd about LA PYRÉNÉES
? Maybe someone here can chime in on them.
It's not that natural bevel setters don't exist . It's just they are at least 2x the price & 2x as slow as a synthetic if any heavy lifting is needed.
On the plus side they don't leave deep scratches.... mostly... but being a natural it's not impossible for some random large particles to pop up & microchip your bevel.
If the bevel is in good shape even a fast Jnat finisher can do the job but something like a Tsushima is more versatile.
Magog and Hindostan come to mind, but I have no idea how fast either are as I do not have them nor have I used them but I bet you could find a ton in a search.
There are plenty of choices on natural bevel setters, but do keep in mind that nature's abrasive choice for stones is SiO2 and its family, and it's quite softer and a lot slower than the man made abrasive choices like SiC and AlOx. SiO2 minerals have limited steel cutting ability, the concentration of cutting particles might not be ideal, their size may vary etc etc.
That being said, wastilla stone, Pyrenees stone, two Spanish sandstones I know that are being sold, two Italian types of stones, a few German stones, some Japanese, some British a few stones here in Greece too... there are actually many choices, but most are not commercially available for the simple reason that they are slow, and cost more than the man made equivalent. It just isn't worth the trouble.
That pretty much sums it up. It's possible, but why bother?
Coticules and JNats can set bevels easily if no corrective honing is needed, but they are typically used with slurry to speed cutting, and speed is a desirable attribute when setting a bevel. Synthetics for the most part slurry less and some practically do not slurry at all at bevel setting grits. I believe this is a desirable attribute when setting a bevel; to get very flat bevels and a 'straight' edge, even if that edge has some burr or fin. Slurry and alternating x-strokes later on will take that fin off easily but having perfectly flat bevels IMO is a desirable starting point even if you have some fin, wire, burr, 'microchipping' (which I believe is just a partial collapse of a fin).
Cheers, Steve
Soft Arkansas stones regularly work for me. Refresh the surface with a diamond plate before use.
The knowledge here astounds me every time I ask a question. Thanks for your advice everyone
I have "had" the red and white amakusa. Great for knifes, not for razors.
Best bevel setter to date that I have found, I have had quite a few stones pass through my hands, is a chosera 1K. Yes, it's synthetic, but it works so stinking well. I use it in my synthetic progression (shapton gs 2,4,8,16,escher) as well as my natural progressions.
I have some Hindustan's and they, like most Naturals are individuals with grit approximation going from ~3k cutting action to ~8K cutting action. Better with honing oil but slow with water or oil. Other similar hones from the farm world are too uneven to trust a razor to.
YMMV
~Richard
My hindostan is about 3-4K, hardly ever use it any more. Mine has the odd larger grain here and there, so I only use it with knives.
I have been using a Washita stone exclusively now for a couple of months. I don't own a synthetic anymore. I have set bevels on eBay razors and razors I have restored without issue. Not very long at all to set a bevel. From 20-30 minutes on "dull as buter knife" eBay razors. My last one the bevel was almost there and it took about 5-10 minutes tops. I have also used a fresh soft ark with a fresh surface. A bit slower but no slower than my old 1k King. With the Washita I raise a slurry and within a few strokes it is already turning grey. I have also used a labeled lily white with success but my unlabeled Washita takes the cake. It's all I use now and don't see a need to go back to a 1k synthetic.
Looks like my next hone will be a Washita, been wanting to go all natural for some time now but haven't found anything natural worth setting a bevel with. I have an Arkansas White/Black or soft/hard combo that I have used with oil to sharpen knives but never tried a razor. Guess that will be my next experiment and if it works I'll get a Washita for setting bevels and have an all natural progression.
You can use a Washita with slurry but it's not the best way to use it. I've done extensive trials with both my #1 and Lily White and they will remove steel in a hurry with slurry but there's also pretty heavy apex damage that takes quite some time to get past on subsequent stones. This is viewing at high magnification, you won't see it with the naked eye or a low power loupe, but it's enough damage that it sort of convexes the edge and takes a good while to hone past on midrange stones.
A Chosera 1k is much faster and doesn't do as much damage - I prefer it by far to a Washita with slurry. Natural stones are the way to go for finishing for me, but they don't hold a candle to synthetic bevel setters.
Interesting. I have never noticed this before. I'm not saying this is false but I have a 100x scope and have never noticed any damage like this on my honing. Quite the opposite. My 1k King left deep scratches compared to my Washita which seemed to cut shallow-wide marks with no apex damage. If it takes a higher power than 100x to see, I can't imagine it being too much of a problem which is why I may not have even noticed it in actual honing. I use a Guangxi slurry for a "middle" stone and have not experienced any problems with an all natural progression. i am sure it has as much to do with HOW you raise the slurry as to how you use it. Now, I have had an all synthetic progression to a mixture of natural/synthetic to an all natural progression. For me, I can't argue with results. I see no reason for me to go BACK to a synthetic bevel setter. Which is why I sold it. YMM(and will)V
No offense but, thanks Steel :<0)
" and 30-60 minutes to set a bevel and progress through to shave ready is fine by me. YMM(and will)V "
I was beginning to think about getting something natural for bevel setting. I have a small arsenal of synthetics and they work perfect for me now.
Yes 10pups. That actually includes the WHOLE progression. I did edit it out to avoid confusion. I don't think an hour to hone a razor off eBay is very long at all. Especially when it took me that long WITH a 1k King. Maybe it's just me.
Don't get me wrong. If you like your synthetics that's fine stick with them. For me, there is not a synthetic hone in my house. Not because naturals are "better" but because I enjoy natural stones and they work as good for me. I hone 1-3 razors a day on an all natural progression. The OP asked if there is a natural bevel setter. Short answer-yes there is. :)
And you seem to have it down better than anybody else :<0)
I'm also looking for reasons NOT to buy anymore rocks.
It's all in the lighting when viewing the damage. You need to look at the right spot in the right way, or the damage can pretty much be obscured. This is so with all scope shots of razor bevels.
The damage is best viewed with the bevel flat to the scope lens and either a collimated light source bounced off the apex or a distant powerful light source (natural collimation) bounced the same way. The goal is to see only the apex lit and the rest in shadow - this will highlight any damage.
Again, not saying that the slurried Washita method won't work - just that it adds a bit of extra time and work to the process. Fit most guys looking to get through the process as quickly as possible it's counterproductive - and those guys (myself included) are better off with a synthetic stone for bevel setting.
5-6 minutes? Man that's quick. Is that for quick edge repair, or can you pull that off when the edge is completely dull? Like had to bread knife the edge to hog out a chip? If so I've got a lot to learn about bevel setting.
Very few bevel settings happen in 5 minutes.
I had to ask. Ive spent nearly 4 hours on a Wedge trying to chew past a pit at the bevel and get to good steel, and the better part of an hour trying to speed-set the bevel on a Torrey. I think* the wedge is ready to move forward to the 4k. The Torrey still needs work. And that's with careful use of the 220 to speed things up. I don't think I want to find out how long work that heavy might've taken with a natural bevel setter. But I'd still like to have one for lighter work.
I have been thinking, never tried it though: why not use a BBW with a slurry produced with another BBW.
IIRC BBW contain larger garnets but less than a coticule. Garnets are pretty hard stuff, if you use a thick slurry you can have many large garnets to do the work.
To remove steel - Norton 220
To set the bevel - Norton 1k.
Both had to be reshaped. The wedge had what I could only describe as a rolling bevel from previous owner abuse, and the spine needed adjustment. The Torrey had both a chip and a crack in the blade. When I say chip, I mean chunk missing - had to remove nearly 1/4 inch of steel from the blade. Fortunately this took care of the Crack as well. I used the 220 more than I care to admit on the wedge to get passed some deep pitting at the toe. On the Torrey I stopped once the bevel was 2/3 of the way to meeting and moved to the 1k because I saw how rough it was on the wedge. I figured that would be a safer bet.
I know Nortons aren't the fastest hones around, but I didn't think they were particularly slow either. Might be the amount of time I spent stopping and checking with the thumb pad and/or loupe to see where the edge was at.
Marsal you need to add a belt grinder to your progression if you keep buying razors like that :<0)