One Stone Hone: Coticule, J-Nat, or Something Else?

I should mention that I'm leaning towards a J-Nat, especially since I travel to Japan about once a year and it will allow for my hobby to help me maintain my language abilities. I also like that the variety of nagura seems to offer a lot of versatility. Since I'm interested in making my purchase in person in Japan, I'd love to hear advice from anyone who has experience buying J-nats in Japan.

The key thing is that I only want a single stone, and preferably a stone that works well with Japanese kitchen knives, too (I have a gyuto, and I'm planning to get a kamagata usuba). I have a 1K King synthetic (which I'll probably upgrade to a Naniwa Chosera at some distant point in the future). The idea is that I'll use the 1K for bevel setting and heavy work, and the natural stone for everything else. I'm tentatively setting my budget at USD $300, but I'm open to adjust it in response to feedback. If I can get a nice system for less than $300, then even better. I'm not planning to spend a cent until 2017, so I have plenty of time to consider my options.

So, given my needs, what do you say: Coticule, J-Nat, or something else? Or, if the kind of setup I'm proposing is just entirely unrealistic, then please let me know why.

It really depends on your honing experience. I am not familiar with Jnats but I don't think they fall into a one hone stone like coticules. If you chose coticule you may have to try several stones to find one that works for you. Do you have any stones beside the 1k King. There are a lot of factors in play here so some history of your honing experience will help others guide you.

I'm not a one stone advocate so I didn't vote. If kitchen knives are in the mix I definitely wouldn't consider a coticule. If it is only razors, I would think a j-nat. Which one ? Haven't a clue. Ask Stefan, (mainaman) he knows his stuff in that department.

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Originally Posted by Hacker7

Do you have any stones beside the 1k King. There are a lot of factors in play here so some history of your honing experience will help others guide you.

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No, I've never honed a razor before, only knives. I'm aware that honing razors is very different compared to knives, but I'd really like to avoid having to "train" on a "starter kit" of 4/8K and 12k synthetics before I'll be "ready" for naturals. Japanese sushi chefs, carpenters, etc. start off with J-nats, so I don't see why, in principle, I can't follow in their footsteps. Of course, they had mentors to help them out, but I don't see why that should make me think starting out on my own would be a foolish endeavor.

The reason I want to go with the one stone hone is so that I can keep things minimal (I don't want a quarry) and achieve a balance between cost and the quality of the edge and the "honing experience". So I'd really just like to buy a basic setup and be done, maybe at most expanding my nagura progression (koma aren't cheap!).

It looks like I'm going to be spending the entire summer of 2017 in Japan, so I'm sort of hoping to get lucky like Jim Rion and find a barber who will mentor me.

Anyway, I hope the info above is helpful. Sorry if I sound a bit aggressive (it's hard to tell how you come across over text), but I just want to make my motives and needs clear.

For razors you want a very hard base stone and naguras. For knives you should get a separate medium stone, such as Hakka, Tsushima Nagura, Hideriyama. You can use the medium stone before the naguras with good success right after your 1k synthetic.

So I've found a few stones being sold online by Japanese sellers as appropriate for both knives and razors (and carpentry tools). For instance, this uchikumori renge suita that's rated at a 3.5 hardness (Google translation).

Obviously, the stone linked above is out of my budget, but I'm wondering if one can get satisfactory edges on both knives and razors from the same stone. If so, then that would be ideal for me.

Is there any reason why I couldn't just have a 3.5 or 4 hardness honzan and use coarser nagura for knives and finer nagura for razors? Let me add that I'm not worried whether this setup would be ideal, but rather whether it'd be reasonably possible, given dedication and patience, of course.

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Originally Posted by vileru

So I've found a few stones being sold online by Japanese sellers as appropriate for both knives and razors (and carpentry tools). For instance, this uchikumori renge suita that's rated at a 3.5 hardness (Google translation).

Obviously, the stone linked above is out of my budget, but I'm wondering if one can get satisfactory edges on both knives and razors from the same stone. If so, then that would be ideal for me.

Is there any reason why I couldn't just have a 3.5 or 4 hardness honzan and use coarser nagura for knives and finer nagura for razors? Let me add that I'm not worried whether this setup would be ideal, but rather whether it'd be reasonably possible, given dedication and patience, of course.

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This is a knife stone, you need a lv 5 or 5+ stone for razors. Hard stones are for razors, soft stones for knives, you will not be able to find a stone that will be suitable for both.

Thanks for the advice, Stefan. If you have the time, could you explain (or point me to a thread that explains) why a hard stone can't be used with knives or why soft stones can't be used with razors? What would happen to the edge of a knife or razor if you tried using an inappropriate stone?

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Originally Posted by vileru

Thanks for the advice, Stefan. If you have the time, could you explain (or point me to a thread that explains) why a hard stone can't be used with knives or why soft stones can't be used with razors? What would happen to the edge of a knife or razor if you tried using an inappropriate stone?

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Hard stones are also very fine, which is what you need to refine the edge of a razor. Hard stone also will not release much slurry while honing and that benefits the edge formation as the slurry will be breaking down without adding many new larger particles. Softer stones will release slurry and that is needed to abrade enough steel to sharpen a knife, softer stones also will allow for even finish on the knife bevels and for easier convexing of the bevels. Softer stones will cut a lot faster compared to very hard stones.

A hard stone suitable for razor finishing may scratch the soft iron on Jp kitchen knives but skill level plays a part also.

Jnats generally should be matched to the steel but also to the user. I have some jnat pre-finishers that I can shave off but it depends on the razor. They are pretty hard stones nonetheless.

I can't comment on the Chocera as I'm only just starting to use one but I know from experience Kings & Jp knives are a perfect match. You could use a razor quality stone to put a microvel on the knives if that is your plan.

I think part of the rub (no pun) is the one stone scenario. It reminds me of the old trail bike (motorcycles) that were made for street or dirt. They might do it but they weren't ideal for either one.

I voted jnat for versatility. I think the jnat can be used for bevel set and take 'er up to a finer edge that most coticules (although not all and I love coticules as well). As far as using razor sharpening and knife sharpening - you may want to consider a king 1/6k and a jnat - two side and a total of two stones.

I think if you really take good care of your blade all you need is a finisher. If all you need is a finisher then it doesn't matter which finisher you get. I don't think it's a good idea to re-bevle every time you hone.

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Originally Posted by aaron1234

I think if you really take good care of your blade all you need is a finisher. If all you need is a finisher then it doesn't matter which finisher you get. I don't think it's a good idea to re-bevle every time you hone.

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All well and good until the day you drop your blade in the sink and need to repair the dinged edge. Can be done with a finisher I guess, but you'll be at it a while.

If you only want 1 stone to deal with I would consider finding a coticule with BBW as a backing stone. Use the BBW side for kitchen knives, and the coticule for razors. Plus you'd have the utility of using the BBW to expedite bevel setting if need be. Then you just need a rubbing stone for each side and you're set.

You could add a king 1K (or similar) and have a solid bevel setter in the mix. No need for a quarry if you're diligent and dedicated, but I'm sure you understand the reasons a beginner is advised to obtain a set of synthetics and learn on those rather than trying to naturals route.

I have to say that I just love working on coticules. Pocket knives to razors, I just love to work with one. That being said, I just finished sharpening my Shun kitchen knives on a Jnat with stellar results and I get sharper edges on my razors too. If I could only pick one or the other to do everything from kitchen knives to razors I would have to vote jnat, but I would miss my coticules dearly.

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Originally Posted by crazy4str8tsinnc

I have to say that I just love working on coticules. Pocket knives to razors, I just love to work with one. That being said, I just finished sharpening my Shun kitchen knives on a Jnat with stellar results and I get sharper edges on my razors too. If I could only pick one or the other to do everything from kitchen knives to razors I would have to vote jnat, but I would miss my coticules dearly.

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And yes, you would be there forever trying to fix a chip. A good coarse stone is definitely recommended as well.

Softer stones are better for knives because they cut faster due to the fact that they keep releasing new abrasive particles into the slurry. Heavier slurry concentration equals faster cutting speed. Knives normally need more work than razors and don't require as keen and smooth of an edge, so softer is better.

Harder stones mostly are used with slurry that is generated by the rubbing stone (nagura) and don't release much or any more during honing. This gives a much keener edge. Razor quality stones are all about the same "grit" or abrasive particle size from what I've seen, but knife quality stones can have slightly coarser/larger abrasive particle size.

As to the OP's question - both coticule and JNat work :) and I regularly use both a coticule AND a softer JNat as a "one stone hone" - admittedly after a Chosera 1.000 if a bevel set is needed. The soft JNats I use are this one http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ml#post1596757 and this one http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ml#post1221444

I use both with a "diamond nagura" (AKA worn out DMT) and they give me very sharp Japanese kitchen knives with a nice kasumi finish and comfortably shaving razors. Same with the coticule (OK, not regarding a kasumi finish ;) ).

Of course, a razor finished on an Escher or hard Oozuku is sharper, but sometimes I prefer a more forgiving edge :).

Cheers
Jörg

So has anyone come up with one stone that will do it all? From bevel to finish?

I was reading posts but haven't seen anything specific posted yet! If so, I apologize in advance! :)

The inherent problem with 1 stone for everything is natural finishers aren't particularly great bevel setters - and heaven forbid you have to do any sort of repair on one. My research indicates the vast majority of '1 stone systems' are actually '2 stone systems.' A 1k bevel setter, and a finisher that can be slurried to remove the stria from the 1K and gradually diluted to polish the edge. 3 if you count slurry/nagura/'diamond nagura' stones.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

The inherent problem with 1 stone for everything is natural finishers aren't particularly great bevel setters - and heaven forbid you have to do any sort of repair on one. My research indicates the vast majority of '1 stone systems' are actually '2 stone systems.' A 1k bevel setter, and a finisher that can be slurried to remove the stria from the 1K and gradually diluted to polish the edge. 3 if you count slurry/nagura/'diamond nagura' stones.

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Yeah, I could see a two stone setup but I guess one would be too tough.

For diamond slurry, what grit does one suggest? I have seen where people use the DMT that have for flattening and also seen where small pocket DMT's are used in coarse and fine. Can you use extra fine to create slurry, it is like 1200 grit, I believe?

I asked because I have a DMT 2x6 in extra fine just sitting here NIP and I don't know what to do with it. I was gonna sell it and get the 325 grit one for lapping. I don't suppose you can lap with an extra fine, can ya? This is the interrupted surface one like a honeycomb face on colored block.

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Originally Posted by SirMike

So has anyone come up with one stone that will do it all? From bevel to finish?

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Yeah I got one :p

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...lynn-glen.html

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Yeah I got one :p

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...lynn-glen.html

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"This will be great for those of you that don't own a ton of razors, and that have the time to mess with the ones that need re-touching after a test shave... You really need a bevel setter, for those razors that need heavier lifting, I used a King 1k during all my testing since they are so cheap to buy, and straight forward to use..."

Couldn't help but point that out. I think maybe we should be drawing a distinction between full bevel resetting, and touch ups that require minor work that can easily be done on any slurry stone.

Keep hold od that 1200. They do have their uses. Some folks use then before a less aggressive 1K stone to expedite bevel set if they had to wear out a chip or similar issue. They can also be used to build slurry, and in plce of 1k sand paper if you're polishing a hard natural. I think some folks use them for maintenance type lapping as well, though not so much for the initial heavy lapping required on a new stone.

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Originally Posted by SirMike

So has anyone come up with one stone that will do it all? From bevel to finish?

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Keith Johnson claims to do that in this video (with a beautiful stone, too!).

From experience with a ton of J-Nats, you will not find a stone that does it all. If you want to repair edges on a J-Nat you will not have a finisher, if you want a finisher you will not be able to repair edges. Your best bet is a 1k bevel setter and a good hard finisher with Botan + Mejiro+ Tomonagura.

To sum it up you have to know what you want from your stone and buy accordingly, but there will not be one-stone-to-do-it-all out there.

I voted for the coticule for a few reasons.

1. A coticule of decent size isn't going to break the budget and most come with their own rubbing (nagura) stone.

2. There are ways to easily obtain a shaving edge from most if not all coticules.

3. Coticules are pretty straight forward when it comes to choosing one. If it's a coticule, it's a coticule and likely suitable for razors (although there are definite softness differences from coticule to coticule). Other then that the difference from stone to stone is minute. Unlike a Jnat where you've got to get one from a good source or brush up on some terms and try your luck on the bay. All natural stones are like this though. Then comes learning the stone.

4. There is only one slurry to worry about from one slurry stone. Taking a few variables out of the equation.

5. If the user wants... the slurry stone can be used to hand hone kitchen knives, I do all the heavy work on a coarse synthetic and then sharpen the knife up using the slurry stone.

I love coticules and do 90% of my honing on them, they are not easy stones to learn, the user has to be prepared for a lot of trial, error and frustration. They have to really go it alone as my coticule doesn't behave like yours... you get the picture. Many recommend beginners to start with 8x3" hone such as the Norton, naniwa, shapton etc. Learn this and then go to naturals. This is to help as the stroke of a beginner isn't perfected yet so a wider surface is ideal and also give a repeatable process to get a shaving edge. A coticule in this size costs hundreds so if a coticule is what your after make sure that you can effectively utilize a smaller surface area to its full potential. A 150x40mm being ideal for a beginner who doesn't want to break the bank.

You said you were leaning more towards j-nats but the prior writing was for anyone considering a coticule for honing and sharpening knives.

I know you'll get whatever suits your needs and that's all that matters is what works for you.

- Scott

I started with the one stone idea. It does work with a coticule only now I have many stones and kinds of stones. My best advice for coticule one stone is find a hard stone one like a la verte and get a fast slurry stone. This will allow for harder work on heavy fast slurry then once down to water give you a nice finish edge.

hatzicho uses a german quartzite from the taunus mountains, called artaunon, for bevel setting, edge refining, and finishing. it might be a good idea to get in touch with him!

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ml#post1632191

hans