Thread: One Stone Hone: Coticule, J-Nat, or Something Else?

I should mention that I'm leaning towards a J-Nat, especially since I travel to Japan about once a year and it will allow for my hobby to help me maintain my language abilities. I also like that the variety of nagura seems to offer a lot of versatility. Since I'm interested in making my purchase in person in Japan, I'd love to hear advice from anyone who has experience buying J-nats in Japan.

The key thing is that I only want a single stone, and preferably a stone that works well with Japanese kitchen knives, too (I have a gyuto, and I'm planning to get a kamagata usuba). I have a 1K King synthetic (which I'll probably upgrade to a Naniwa Chosera at some distant point in the future). The idea is that I'll use the 1K for bevel setting and heavy work, and the natural stone for everything else. I'm tentatively setting my budget at USD $300, but I'm open to adjust it in response to feedback. If I can get a nice system for less than $300, then even better. I'm not planning to spend a cent until 2017, so I have plenty of time to consider my options.

So, given my needs, what do you say: Coticule, J-Nat, or something else? Or, if the kind of setup I'm proposing is just entirely unrealistic, then please let me know why.

It really depends on your honing experience. I am not familiar with Jnats but I don't think they fall into a one hone stone like coticules. If you chose coticule you may have to try several stones to find one that works for you. Do you have any stones beside the 1k King. There are a lot of factors in play here so some history of your honing experience will help others guide you.

I'm not a one stone advocate so I didn't vote. If kitchen knives are in the mix I definitely wouldn't consider a coticule. If it is only razors, I would think a j-nat. Which one ? Haven't a clue. Ask Stefan, (mainaman) he knows his stuff in that department.

Originally Posted by Hacker7

Do you have any stones beside the 1k King. There are a lot of factors in play here so some history of your honing experience will help others guide you.

No, I've never honed a razor before, only knives. I'm aware that honing razors is very different compared to knives, but I'd really like to avoid having to "train" on a "starter kit" of 4/8K and 12k synthetics before I'll be "ready" for naturals. Japanese sushi chefs, carpenters, etc. start off with J-nats, so I don't see why, in principle, I can't follow in their footsteps. Of course, they had mentors to help them out, but I don't see why that should make me think starting out on my own would be a foolish endeavor.

The reason I want to go with the one stone hone is so that I can keep things minimal (I don't want a quarry) and achieve a balance between cost and the quality of the edge and the "honing experience". So I'd really just like to buy a basic setup and be done, maybe at most expanding my nagura progression (koma aren't cheap!).

It looks like I'm going to be spending the entire summer of 2017 in Japan, so I'm sort of hoping to get lucky like Jim Rion and find a barber who will mentor me.

Anyway, I hope the info above is helpful. Sorry if I sound a bit aggressive (it's hard to tell how you come across over text), but I just want to make my motives and needs clear.

For razors you want a very hard base stone and naguras. For knives you should get a separate medium stone, such as Hakka, Tsushima Nagura, Hideriyama. You can use the medium stone before the naguras with good success right after your 1k synthetic.

So I've found a few stones being sold online by Japanese sellers as appropriate for both knives and razors (and carpentry tools). For instance, this uchikumori renge suita that's rated at a 3.5 hardness (Google translation).

Obviously, the stone linked above is out of my budget, but I'm wondering if one can get satisfactory edges on both knives and razors from the same stone. If so, then that would be ideal for me.

Is there any reason why I couldn't just have a 3.5 or 4 hardness honzan and use coarser nagura for knives and finer nagura for razors? Let me add that I'm not worried whether this setup would be ideal, but rather whether it'd be reasonably possible, given dedication and patience, of course.

Originally Posted by vileru

So I've found a few stones being sold online by Japanese sellers as appropriate for both knives and razors (and carpentry tools). For instance, this uchikumori renge suita that's rated at a 3.5 hardness (Google translation).

Obviously, the stone linked above is out of my budget, but I'm wondering if one can get satisfactory edges on both knives and razors from the same stone. If so, then that would be ideal for me.

Is there any reason why I couldn't just have a 3.5 or 4 hardness honzan and use coarser nagura for knives and finer nagura for razors? Let me add that I'm not worried whether this setup would be ideal, but rather whether it'd be reasonably possible, given dedication and patience, of course.

This is a knife stone, you need a lv 5 or 5+ stone for razors. Hard stones are for razors, soft stones for knives, you will not be able to find a stone that will be suitable for both.

Thanks for the advice, Stefan. If you have the time, could you explain (or point me to a thread that explains) why a hard stone can't be used with knives or why soft stones can't be used with razors? What would happen to the edge of a knife or razor if you tried using an inappropriate stone?

Originally Posted by vileru

Thanks for the advice, Stefan. If you have the time, could you explain (or point me to a thread that explains) why a hard stone can't be used with knives or why soft stones can't be used with razors? What would happen to the edge of a knife or razor if you tried using an inappropriate stone?

Hard stones are also very fine, which is what you need to refine the edge of a razor. Hard stone also will not release much slurry while honing and that benefits the edge formation as the slurry will be breaking down without adding many new larger particles. Softer stones will release slurry and that is needed to abrade enough steel to sharpen a knife, softer stones also will allow for even finish on the knife bevels and for easier convexing of the bevels. Softer stones will cut a lot faster compared to very hard stones.

A hard stone suitable for razor finishing may scratch the soft iron on Jp kitchen knives but skill level plays a part also.

Jnats generally should be matched to the steel but also to the user. I have some jnat pre-finishers that I can shave off but it depends on the razor. They are pretty hard stones nonetheless.

I can't comment on the Chocera as I'm only just starting to use one but I know from experience Kings & Jp knives are a perfect match. You could use a razor quality stone to put a microvel on the knives if that is your plan.