I have seen that natural japanese water stones are rated with a hardness number such as Lv2, Lv3, Lv 4 and Lv5. If we could rate a Translucent or a Black Arkansas, how hard could they be rated with this same scale? Thank you.
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I have seen that natural japanese water stones are rated with a hardness number such as Lv2, Lv3, Lv 4 and Lv5. If we could rate a Translucent or a Black Arkansas, how hard could they be rated with this same scale? Thank you.
Eleven.
And yes, here it is again...
Attachment 236863
Joking aside, I do think hard Arks are harder than hard Japanese hones.
Problem with an ark is it's reliant on the burnish.
Once you start to put slurry on them you have to be careful, If you go too low the burnish will just vanish and you have to start again.
I've played with mine with slurry, and outside of the finest finishing slurries you have to pay attention. I've had some success with light coti and thuri slurries provided I build the slurry on a DTM and transfer it over. If I try to slurry on the rock my burnish generally doesn't fare so well. I once tried a 6K king slurry and the stone came off looking shot blasted.
I have a collection of stones, diamond, Japanese, Arkansas and Lapping film. I really love the lapping film for the very last finish. I prefer the Arkansas because they are less hassel than Japanese water stones. The have to soak so long. I have up to 15,000grit but the Arkansas I have soft, black and translucent. They do take a lot of work, slow and even control. I like the 3 inch because it covers most blades. Diamond I am not too fansey for as they seem to take of more than I want I have been doing this for 20 years and am still learning. Best Sharpening stores carry the lapping film. One sheet will cut three pieces and mounted on a flat, smooth surface it will service about 30 razors before having to change. if you have not tried them I would suggest that you give them a go. Be extra careful because you can cut them very easy.
LV-5+++ UP UP UP
I have some pretty hard LV-5 jnats and none of them compare to the vintage Trans and blacks I've lapped.
^ ThisQuote:
Originally Posted by Dcaddo1
LV-6
Thanks everybody. I'll try raising some slurry on a translucent, to see what I get.
Japanese natural water stones, about which the OP asked, do not need to be soaked at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceni
For the reason Iceni gave, slurrying an Arkansas stone is not a great idea. If you do decide to experiment with it, realize you may have some work ahead of you to restore the surface of the Ark.Quote:
Originally Posted by jelajemi
The translucent Arks are as hard as quartzite, means the hardness is in a region of 7 according to the Mohs scale. For comparison Carborundum has a Mohs hardness of 9, diamond 10. The scale used with Jnats is not the Mohs scale, it is just a scale from soft to hard (1-5) if I recall correct. Don't know if it is somehow based on one of the scientific scales. But I have lappped several Jnats up to a lv5 and would rate them somehow according to Mohs with the number, considering that Thuringians are around Mohs 3.
If you are trying to compare hardness, to performance between a hard Japanese natural and a hard Ark, thinking that harder is better or that it will produce a finer edge, it does not work that way.
They are two very different stones that produce very different edges, for a lot of reasons. Performance of any natural, is mostly due to the hands doing the driving and the qualities of the stone itself, which are completely random.
You can compare individual stones to each other, but hardness would only be one factor in performance, any more than you could say white cars are faster than red cars.
Arks (translucent and Black) are all pretty much the same "hardness" when speaking about the matrix of the stone and how tightly it's bound together - this is because the stones are almost pure silica, so nearly homogenous. The abrasive mix is almost identical in the high 90th percentile in every case, so the hardness of the abrasive itself is also fairly uniform and the same from stone to stone.
JNats are much more heterogenous and composed of a wider mix of particulates, as well as being more or less dense than each other. This makes for a much wider spread of hardness in terms of how tenaciously the abrasive particles are held together in the matrix of the stone as well as some variability in the cutting power of those particles.
As far as hardness (matrix-wise - the way that JNats are rated for hardness) of Arks vs. Jnats, I've only had double digits worth of JNats and the same of Arks, so can't say definitively, but the Arks are all harder than even the few JNats I've purchased as level "5+++," no question.
Okay I better don't use my Translucent to raise some slurry. Thanks for the advice. I got another which I need to Id and going to take some pictures and maybe you and some of the other members can help me.
Mine are recently bought, soft, black and translucent. the acronyms LV-5 jnats is outside my realm of cognition. If you could explain it would be helpful. I go to antique shops for my razors, found a few stones that are weird and cannot find a respectable strop--they are all crapp-- and the dealters want outrageous prices for them. I had tussels with dealers over prices on blades. I picked up three brand spanking new german blades, decorated for $20 each. lovely pieces. The have Monday thrusday and Saturday on them so the other days are missing as I assume them came from a seven blade set.
I found, for me that the Japanese stones cut the steel faster than the Arkansas. I like them but it takes so long to prep them. I have gone to the Arkansas soft, black (used to sharpen surgeon scalpels) and the translucent, harder than the black, at least that is the way mine appear. The black has a touch more roughness to it than the translucent which is smooth as glass practically. I avoid the diamond. For me they remove too much metal too fast that I have no control. Belgium stones are far out of my range to touch, but wager they may be the best of all stones.
My opinion, but good luck getting any slurry on a translucent. That is on hell of a hard stone.
I have to take an exception to the opinion the black and translucent are all about the same. The ones I have are a world apart. The black has a slight texture to it and the translucent is slick as glass with oil.
It is my opinion until you have used them and paid close attention to the edge. The black and translucent take more work, but in the end, my opinion, they do a very fine job. I an touch the stones and feel the difference between them
All depends on where you get them from. You can find Black Arkansas stones that are hard, true hard (Same grade as Translucent), and True Black (Finest/highest grade possible). So if you got it cheap, or from a less than reputable seller, it may not be the grade it was advertised as. See here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock27
Stone Grades 101
Not arguing here. My black was $180 and the translucent was $220. Seller guaranteed quality stones. I can still feel the difference between the two stones. There are all kind of sites we just simply cannot verify. Until you take the stone to a gemologist would he be able to verify the authenticity. Might be a bad idea, but for me it would be too late.. The black was classified as the stone surgeon scalpels were sharpened on, as there are still scalpels out there that are one piece which surgeons prefer because of balance over the plastic snap in scalpels. I don't know who sharpens them though. No specific comments were made on the translucent except that it was a fininshing polish stone. the ones I have work quiet well for me and I have no argument except for the price I paid for them. Less expensive than the site you quoted. I am 71, retired special education teacher on a fixed income so paying big hundreds of dollars for stones is not for me. Any stone that puts a good edge on a blade which accomplishes a good shave is fine to use from my perspective regardless of the price paid..
My grandfather never had these stones and honed his razor on a rotating wheel with a wather drip can. He sharpened everything on them. IT seemed to work for him. I think it is more how you approach the blade movement across the blade rather than the quality of the stone. Not this is my opinion. It is not intended to be an argument or disagreement. I am merely expressing my opinion. Even a black cheap stone could put a fine edge on a blade if it is approached with knowledge and experience. Sorry if I may have offended you on this, but it is my opinion as it is other members on this sight. Again I apologize if I made an unlikely intrusion into your realm of expertise. I have been doing this for at least 20 years or more, however, I am challenged by shaving around a beard.
When I finish on my translucent I go to lapping paper, 1200, 8000. and 50,000 for my finish work then to the stroo. I use camellia oil from Japan on my blades after I shave. I have seven blades I use to take me though several weeks, maybe to shaves before I go to the strop. I powder my linine with a fine diatomaceous earth powder, food grade, then I leather it. That's me. Guess everyone has their own style of shaving. I don't believe it is that difficult of an art and I think some people try to elevate it to an are. The only art I can see is in the sharpening of the blade. Not the easiest task in the world to accomplist.
I close with my apology again. Sorry.
No need to apologize, I didn't post it to start an arguement. Mostly it was to share information. Dan's doesn't just sell them, my understanding is they also own one of the mines in which these hones are quarried from. So I would like to believe they're being forthright in their information.
As to yours in particular, if they both came from the same seller, and the translucent is good quality then I'm sure they sold you the black in good faith as well. And I don't doubt that yours behave as you say they do.
I apologize if my post came off as combative, defensive, or worse - derogatory. Such was not my intent. Mostly the post was made to point out that there are a variety of Black Arkansas stones in grades above and below Translucent stones, and that one must be careful to find a reputable dealer - as it sounds like you did.
In my own search (I'm constantly on the lookout for these) I've seen hones called 'surgical black' at hard Arkansas hone prices. These are the ones I am particularly wary and suspicious of.
I agree with you that sharpening these blades is quite a challenge. Much more so than shaving with them, learning that was the easy part.
I've got one of those stone wheels you speak of. It belonged to my grandfather, and I'm sure came from his father before him. I've never thought to use it on anything, the stone itself seems rather coarse and badly worn from misuse.
The stones need to be prepped properly. They can't be compared well if they aren't identically prepared. If they are prepared/conditioned in a way that is suitable to use for razor honing, you should not be able to feel any "gritty" feeling at all with your fingernail - it should feel like running your nail along a piece of optically clear glass.
Using the hones as received from the vendors is a waste of time in most cases if you're trying to hone a razor.
After lapping the stones flat they should be brought up to a higher polish with at least 1k+ level abrasive, then burnished for a good while with a steel chisel or wide knife blade all over the surface evenly. This takes quite some time, but when finished will provide fantastic razor edges.
ah! Jus as my grandfathers, whom he possiably got from his.I apologized because sometimes my narrative comes out a bit harsh and I need to learn to find more proper words. It's not like a conversation eye to eye were you can read the facial expression, tone of voice and body gesture, al cures to the intent of the conversation. Thank you for your kindness and patients with me.
Dan's is pretty much the only one left, They own the quarry and do the cutting, lapping, packaging. They also sell to places like Norton or such companies that re-brand them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
Dan's sells all grades of stones though, usually you can look at it and figure out which grade it is, at least I can.
I wish I could. I can tell spit soft ones pretty easily. And translucent are also obvious. I don't have enough hands on experience with hard and beyond to be confident what's what.
