Yet another please identify my hone-thread

A friend gave me a razor hone some time ago (black stone, second from the bottom), and I'd like to know what kind of stone it is. I added a number of other fairly well known stones for colour reference, and I did weigh and measure all the loose stones to calculate their density.

From top to bottom:

Washita, density ~2,00 (fairly large margin for error, too small to get the accurate weight)
Smiths Soft Arkansas
Norton Hard Arkansas (Translucent, I'd say), density 2,65
Mystery hone, density 2,80
Escher, thurungian if I'm not mistaken.

The mystery hone is dark grey or black, a bit heavier than the translucent arkansas as the density shows, it used to have remains of a label with the word "razor" or something like that but it was removed by the previous owner. Water does not "wet it", it mostly just gets pushed off the stone by the razor when you draw it across. Worked well with oil (WD40).

I am not skilled at sharpening razors (yet), nor do I have a descent strop or stropping compound. (I'm getting there, sooner or later.) I did however make an attempt to hone a few old razors on the hard arkansas, the escher and the mystery hone, the arkansas and escher did make the razors sharp enough for cutting arm hair, the mystery hone gave a clearly better result - not nearly good enough to shave with it, but I'm guessing that's where a strop would make a big diffrence.

Anyone have an idea what kind of hone it might be?

Attachment 250657

Attachment 250658

Attachment 250659

Thats a mighty high density there. By looks, I would say a surgical black Ark, but I have never encountered one of that density.

Perhaps it was one of those "For Good Razors" hones? Anybody ever do a density check on theirs?

From the description and looks I would think it is highly possible that it is in fact a Black Arkansas.
Density Standards
Soft Arkansas**** **********2.20-2.30*** Specific Gravity
Hard Arkansas*********** * 2.30-2.45****Specific Gravity
True Hard Arkansas***** *2.50 +** * ****Specific Gravity
Colored Translucent**** * 2.50 +**** ****Specific Gravity
Black Arkansas************ 2.50 +**** *** Specific Gravity

How does density get calculaed

Density is mass/volume. Specific gravity is density of the item under test/density of water. Density of water is near enough 1g/cm³ so for our purposes density and specific gravity are near enough to be called the same.

The highest density possible for an Ark is something like 2.65 or thereabouts - this is the density of pure void-free quartz/SiO2 - what Arks are made of almost 100%. I would like to hear what method was used to arrive at the figures given for the OP's stones. Measuring with a ruler and cheap postal scale will not give accurate numbers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eKretz

Density is mass/volume. Specific gravity is density of the item under test/density of water. Density of water is near enough 1g/cm³ so for our purposes density and specific gravity are near enough to be called the same.

The highest density possible for an Ark is something like 2.65 or thereabouts - this is the density of pure void-free quartz/SiO2 - what Arks are made of almost 100%. I would like to hear what method was used to arrive at the figures given for the OP's stones. Measuring with a ruler and cheap postal scale will not give accurate numbers.

---

Just calculated yesterday, my Trans Ark was around 2.80 so are you sure Eric? Iam sure i calculated correct....

I also dont think you need a hypercalculated ruler, if youre correct on mm that should do it.

I would vote for surgical Black Ark, not too many other possibilities around...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magpie

Perhaps it was one of those "For Good Razors" hones? Anybody ever do a density check on theirs?

---

Can do that later if wished, but its a dense slate, iam quite sure its below....

Yes I'm sure. The only way it could possibly be higher would be if you had a stone with impurities - which is very rare for an Ark. They are usually on the order of 99.5% pure silica. To properly measure density, volume and weight should be measured very closely - digital calipers do nicely - but you need to measure in four places for each dimension and average if the sides aren't parallel. Don't forget that any error in measuring is cubed! This still won't give an accurate measure of volume if the stone is chamfered or if it's porous enough to absorb water. The best way to accurately measure the volume is with a liquid - i.e. water and a burette, but not many have this equipment. Weight to the gram is probably close enough.

I have measured probably 30 hard Arks and never found one over 2.65 S.G.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doorsch

Can do that later if wished, but its a dense slate, iam quite sure its below....

---

Did calculate a Purple La Lune, to prove what unaccury does i took the Values and changed them with reducing around 2mm on one side measurement.....

Normal Calculation
10.1 x 5.1 x 2.1 / 311 gramm = 2.87gr/cm2

Changing values
10.1 x 5.1 x 1.9 / 311 gramm = 3.17 gr/cm2
10.1 x 5.1 x 1.7 / 311 gramm = 3.55 gr/cm2

So the purple Lune fex shows a very high density. Somebody can make a counter measurement on a purple lune?

One post in. Welcome to SRP. Please introduce yourself further. Density is not the same thing as specific gravity, no? In any case, I'll take the hard Arkansas stone as shown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

One post in. Welcome to SRP. Please introduce yourself further. Density is not the same thing as specific gravity, no? In any case, I'll take the hard Arkansas stone as shown.

---

Reread post #5, sentences 2 & 3.

Thanks for all the replies, guys!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

One post in. Welcome to SRP. Please introduce yourself further.

---

Is there a specific place to do that? I've got a little problem using the forum, i keep getting "Bad Request Your browser sent a request that this server could not understand."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eKretz

I would like to hear what method was used to arrive at the figures given for the OP's stones. Measuring with a ruler and cheap postal scale will not give accurate numbers.

---

Measured using a digital caliper, nine measurments taken on the large flat sides, six along the edges and two over the ends. Measurments averaged out to a tenth of a millimeter.
Used a relatively cheap digital scale. It has always been within 1% of the scale in my local post office, those have to be calibrated regularly so it should be pretty accurate.
2,80 can absolutely be a little off, there's always SOME error when measuring, but it should be quite close to accurate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doorsch

Did calculate a Purple La Lune, to prove what unaccury does i took the Values and changed them with reducing around 2mm on one side measurement.....

Normal Calculation
10.1 x 5.1 x 2.1 / 311 gramm = 2.87gr/cm2

Changing values
10.1 x 5.1 x 1.9 / 311 gramm = 3.17 gr/cm2
10.1 x 5.1 x 1.7 / 311 gramm = 3.55 gr/cm2

So the purple Lune fex shows a very high density. Somebody can make a counter measurement on a purple lune?

---

So, if the numbers ARE accurate, the stone in question could very well be of the Special Stone variety. I have never had an Ark stone above 2.67

Test post ,,,,,,, per member request.

The density of slate is between 2.5 to 3.3+, so, is the stone hard like a translucent Arkansas or the purpose of the thread is to compare densities?

The stone is hard, can't say if it's exactly like the translucent arkansas but much more like that than the escher for example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gsssson

The stone is hard, can't say if it's exactly like the translucent arkansas but much more like that than the escher for example.

---

Escher/Thuringian stones have a wide range of hardness with really soft ones as well as hard stones. Translucent Arkansas is on a different level of hardness. Being in Europe, I would not bet that this stone is an Arkansas, we have so many types of stones here. And the famous ones are a fraction of what is around. It could very well be some slate from UK, then again, that's not a bad thing, plenty of them were high quality razor stones.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gsssson

The stone is hard, can't say if it's exactly like the translucent arkansas but much more like that than the escher for example.

---

Please add some daylight shots, some slurry shots and try to add a torch on the sides of the stone and check if any light shines thru....


This should be an easier way to get any process on IDing this one

How would I go about making a slurry on it? It behaves like the translucent, the oil gets some black swarf as you hone, obviously not visible on the black stone so it just shows up on the white paper towel when I wipe it off.
I'll try to do the rest tomorrow!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gsssson

How would I go about making a slurry on it? It behaves like the translucent, the oil gets some black swarf as you hone, obviously not visible on the black stone so it just shows up on the white paper towel when I wipe it off.
I'll try to do the rest tomorrow!

---

Do you own a Diamond Plate ? That would be th easiest way...

No, I do not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gsssson

How would I go about making a slurry on it? It behaves like the translucent, the oil gets some black swarf as you hone, obviously not visible on the black stone so it just shows up on the white paper towel when I wipe it off.
I'll try to do the rest tomorrow!

---

Give it a nice lap with sandpaper, it might clean the stone from excess oil on it, especially if it isn't porous. Rubbing the stone with some sandpaper will show us the color of the slurry as well, preferably on the stone and, if it does, it kind of proves that it's not an Arkansas stone as that kind of stone is too hard even for sandpaper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doorsch

Did calculate a Purple La Lune, to prove what unaccury does i took the Values and changed them with reducing around 2mm on one side measurement.....

Normal Calculation
10.1 x 5.1 x 2.1 / 311 gramm = 2.87gr/cm2

Changing values
10.1 x 5.1 x 1.9 / 311 gramm = 3.17 gr/cm2
10.1 x 5.1 x 1.7 / 311 gramm = 3.55 gr/cm2

So the purple Lune fex shows a very high density. Somebody can make a counter measurement on a purple lune?

---

Sorry Sebastian, but I left my Lunes in France. What about the chamfers?

I agree that it would be good to see the stone in natural light. Also perhaps cleaned of oil, if that's what's causing the sheen. From what I can tell it could be a black hard Arkansas or maybe a Cumbrian hone. But really, it could be anything given the wide range of the lot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eKretz

Reread post #5, sentences 2 & 3.

---

Yes, I seem to have missed your comment. Thanks. So it's as simple as that? Still, I would think it best not to use the terms or respective values interchangeably.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doorsch

Please add some daylight shots, some slurry shots and try to add a torch on the sides of the stone and check if any light shines thru....

---

No sandpaper available at the moment, so slurry shots has to wait.
This is as much daylight as I've got on a cloudy day late november, the camera still used the flash when set on auto so I had to turn that off. :P There's no light at all coming through the stone (tested with much stronger lamp too, but no photo of that).

Attachment 250749

Attachment 250750

Attachment 250751

Attachment 250752

Attachment 250753

Attachment 250754

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gsssson

No sandpaper available at the moment, so slurry shots has to wait.
This is as much daylight as I've got on a cloudy day late november, the camera still used the flash when set on auto so I had to turn that off. :P There's no light at all coming through the stone (tested with much stronger lamp too, but no photo of that).

Attachment 250749

Attachment 250750

Attachment 250751

Attachment 250752

Attachment 250753

Attachment 250754

---

It's a slate probably.

Would you like to wash the stone with some soap, or leave it overnight in water with some mild soap to remove that oily appearance? Dipping it in pure diethyl ether will work even better but it's not cost effective, and I think it's a regulated "substance" there too.
As for sandpaper (wet and dry variety, blue backing, black particles), you can buy it from everywhere and it's dead cheap, get a couple of 200 grit and another couple of 1000 grit sheets, that's less than 15 kr.
Lap the stone dry, wash thoroughly, and get some photos again. If the word "razor" appears anywhere on the stone, be careful not to lap that place, or not. If it's on a label and not on the stone, lap all sides. I also don't see any cutting marks, do the sides of the stone look really smooth or it's just me?
Anyway, start by washing the stone with soap until it looks kind of dry from all that oil.

Oven cleaner, auto brake cleaner work well for cleaning oil off a stone as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vasilis

The density of slate is between 2.5 to 3.3+, so, is the stone hard like a translucent Arkansas or the purpose of the thread is to compare densities?

---

The purpose of the thread is to identify the stone and density is a tool in the box of knowledge to help with that. I had no clue slate had that density. The more I read the more I am convinced it is not an arky but one of the slates instead. And the only one I know of that had sticker labels that specified razors were thuries and Special Stones.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magpie

The purpose of the thread is to identify the stone and density is a tool in the box of knowledge to help with that. I had no clue slate had that density. The more I read the more I am convinced it is not an arky but one of the slates instead. And the only one I know of that had sticker labels that specified razors were thuries and Special Stones.

---

You could classify TOS as slates as well, and many UK slates, more than five had a label about razor, let alone the "razor sharp edge". If we include that last phrase, every stone that can shave arm hair belongs to the category, and most quality stones from the whole Europe and Americas were sold by some company at some point the last 200 years, and had a label.
If it's a Thuringian, it would be a pity to see so much oil on it, but I don't think it's one. As for the lune stone, it's even less likely to be one.
In the end, the stone shaves or doesn't, that's what matters the most.

Now I'm curious about the spotting on the end and side of the stones in some of the pictures. Does it appear green or turquoise colored by chance?

The further pictures make me think it might be a vintage Yellow Lake, or maybe the Cumbrian stone I mentioned before. Welsh slates can have green-turquoise spotting like that, and Yellow Lakes can get that dark when oiled.

I'll do some cleaning and lapping when I have an opportunity, and get back to you with fresh pictures then!

Yea, clean it first. Can’t tell you how many black stones, I have bought hoping they were arks, only to find out they were something else. Fortunately for just a couple bucks.

As said start with a good hosing of oven cleaner, wait a few minutes and hose it again and scrub. Then wash in soapy water, that should at least reveal the color and any pattern.

If you want to get all the oil off it, you must soak in water and degreaser, I use Simple Green and or, Awesome from the dollar store. Some hard stones can take months to release all the oil.

I have lapped many an Arkansas with sandpaper 400/600/800/1000 grits and they have all raised a slurry so not sure how helpful that would be. Maybe the color of the slurry?

I've got a little degreaser left over from the good old days before everything went environment friendly. That stuff takes rattlecan paint off and goes thorugh the bottom of plastic soda bottles given a few weeks ( had alot more before I figured that out). To my eyes the stone looks like its showing the natural color, but if you think it's colored by oil I'll hit it with that degreaser and we'll know for sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gsssson

I've got a little degreaser left over from the good old days before everything went environment friendly. That stuff takes rattlecan paint off and goes thorugh the bottom of plastic soda bottles given a few weeks ( had alot more before I figured that out). To my eyes the stone looks like its showing the natural color, but if you think it's colored by oil I'll hit it with that degreaser and we'll know for sure.

---

You might damage the stone. SiO2 acts as an acid, and they might react. Better safe than sorry, use something milder like soap instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vasilis

You might damage the stone. SiO2 acts as an acid, and they might react. Better safe than sorry, use something milder like soap instead.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gsssson

I've got a little degreaser left over from the good old days before everything went environment friendly. That stuff takes rattlecan paint off and goes thorugh the bottom of plastic soda bottles given a few weeks ( had alot more before I figured that out). To my eyes the stone looks like its showing the natural color, but if you think it's colored by oil I'll hit it with that degreaser and we'll know for sure.

---

If I'm not mistaken, Gsssson is talking about Carbon Tetrachloride or maybe Trichlorethylene Shouldnt damage the stone at all, but will certainly damage the lungs, liver, and braincells!

Sorry Gsssson, and thanks Magpie, you're right.
When I read it, I thought it melted the metal can, thinking that it was a strong base. An organic solvent like this could work, as long as it has a relatively low boiling point; high enough to clean the stone and not evaporate before finishing it's job but not too high ending up with a stone saturated on that instead of the oil. In that case, give it a try on the stone, I can't imagine something serious going wrong for the stone. Just be careful for your own good; organohalogens/halocarbon and other organic substances have an expiration date, and sometimes the reason is a serious one; you don't want to open a bottle with the inside liquid having the smell of freshly cut grass (phosgene) or other poisons, and there is also the category of organic peroxides that kind of... explode. I exaggerate but do be careful and at least wear gloves and gas mask.

Unless that mag lite is LED and pushing some serious power it may not tell you much. I've got a translucent Arkansas, and anything less than 250 Lumens won't show at all through the stone - and that doesn't show much at all.

I'd throw my vote on it being slate, but it's hard to be certain until you've got the oil off the stone.