Confused on differences between Pre-finisher vs finisher vs polisher

Can someone please elaborate, or point me in the direction of an already established thread about the differences between a pre-finisher, finisher, and polishing hone? Why the need to polish - is there a notable difference in the edge performance, or is it just for aesthetics? Is a pre-finisher different than a higher grit bevel setter? I know grit ranges are hard to say, but is there a grit range difference between these. Also, bonus points for an example of a hone or two for each type.

Thanks!

the straighter and smoother the edge is the smoother the shave. low grit hones cut deeper scratches in the edge where as higher grit don't, leaving a straighter smoother edge. as we get higher in the grit rating(or even not so high,as in the case with some of the hard thuris and Arks)they don't cut deep scratches. in this regards it would be called polishing the edge to relieve the deep Stria.I myself wouldnt consider a bevel setter a pre polisher, that would fall more into the area of midrange hones, or in most instances where you can shave comfortable if you have the skills as in a good 8 k Naniwa. then if your looking for more the on to the really nice polishing hones

even simpler explaination, the difference between pre polisher and polisher is about $200.00 Tc

Grit ranges are not hard to say when using synthetic hones, they are what they say they are. Using natural hones is an entirely different story. I use synthetic homes, Naniwas, for that reason as it makes life easier for me.

For me a razor with chips and/or rust on the edge/bevel has the bevel set on a 1K Naniwa. If it is in good condition, no chips/rust, and needs a bevel reset a 3K Naniwa is what I will use.

After those I will refine the bevel/edge on an 8K then 12K Naniwa. The 12K being my finishing hone.

The need to polish the bevel is to eliminate the striations/scratch marks from the previous lower grit hone. These deep scratch marks extending to the very edge leave the edge toothy. By eliminating them you get to a much smoother edge and a comfortable shave.

Bob

It is entirely up to you. The pre-finisher is the hone you use before your final finishing hone. How about stating the obvious?
If you finish on a coticule you call the coticule the finisher. If you take the razor from the coticule to an Escher to finish on, your coticule becomes the pre-finisher and the Escher the finisher and so on.

Depends on the system. I'd say the prefinisher is going to be at least 1 step finer than your 1K bevel setter. Finisher is something you can shave off of, and polisher would be a cut above that. Norton 4/8 - 4k = pre finisher, 8k = finisher. CrOx would be the polisher, if you're using it.

Naniwa you could say that 3 or 5k = prefinisher, 8k finisher, 12/paste = polisher.

And then there are other outliers...I can use my Chinese 12K, Translucent Arkansas, or even a barber hone for everything from bevel set on up to final polish/finish. Clear as mud? I feel the same way.

Varies by the system and tools you choose to employ. Whether or not you'll feel the difference between the edge left by the finisher and polisher depends on your experience with honing, shaving, how stubborn your facial hair is, and how sensitive your face is.

The stages of SR honing:

They do not change only the tools that you use to accomplish them change

Bevel setting - Establishes the base surfaces and insures that the two faces of the bevel meet in a sharp even edge

Sharpening - Further refinement of the bevel and brings the two faces to a more even stage in which they meet at an even thinner plane

Polishing - Polishes the faces of the bevels lessens the depth of the stria creating a smooth even surface for the finisher

Finisher - This can be a Hone or a Paste to impart a more comfortable aspect to the final edge

Honing 101, easy peasy explanation, now if you want to get highly technical we can discuss the multitude of ways to accomplish all four of those stages but to hone a SR to a close comfortable shaving edge you are going to have to climb those steps up the ladder :) You can can call them different things and you can add steps subtract steps or combine steps but you are going to have to climb them

Glen, I like your explanation of Sharpening. I never considered that I was not just removing scratches from the previous stone, but also was creating a thinner plane. I may spend a little more time at that stage the next time I butcher, I mean hone a razor.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

The stages of SR honing:

They do not change only the tools that you use to accomplish them change

Bevel setting - Establishes the base surfaces and insures that the two faces of the bevel meet in a sharp even edge

Sharpening - Further refinement of the bevel and brings the two faces to a more even stage in which they meet at an even thinner plane

Polishing - Polishes the faces of the bevels lessens the depth of the stria creating a smooth even surface for the finisher

Finisher - This can be a Hone or a Paste to impart a more comfortable aspect to the final edge

Honing 101, easy peasy explanation, now if you want to get highly technical we can discuss the multitude of ways to accomplish all four of those stages but to hone a SR to a close comfortable shaving edge you are going to have to climb those steps up the ladder :) You can can call them different things and you can add steps subtract steps or combine steps but you are going to have to climb them

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Excellent explanation however the differentiation of stages is purely artificial to aid understanding of the process. The stages blend into one another while you go.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

Depends on the system. I'd say the prefinisher is going to be at least 1 step finer than your 1K bevel setter. Finisher is something you can shave off of, and polisher would be a cut above that. Norton 4/8 - 4k = pre finisher, 8k = finisher. CrOx would be the polisher, if you're using it.

Naniwa you could say that 3 or 5k = prefinisher, 8k finisher, 12/paste = polisher.

And then there are other outliers...I can use my Chinese 12K, Translucent Arkansas, or even a barber hone for everything from bevel set on up to final polish/finish. Clear as mud? I feel the same way.

Varies by the system and tools you choose to employ. Whether or not you'll feel the difference between the edge left by the finisher and polisher depends on your experience with honing, shaving, how stubborn your facial hair is, and how sensitive your face is.

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Great input, thanks! Re: the naniwa - what type of naniwa is it? There seem to be several. Is there a particular line from Naniwa that razor users like the most?

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Originally Posted by Shokunin

Great input, thanks! Re: the naniwa - what type of naniwa is it? There seem to be several. Is there a particular line from Naniwa that razor users like the most?

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Marshal is talking generally about the naniwa hones. They come in several varieties. The popular ones are the specialty and professional lines. Generally speaking, the specialty stones are narrower and the professionals are thicker. There are differences in composition as well. The 1k professional, or green brick is very popular as a bevel setter. As is the 12k, as a finishing stone, providing an excellent edge.

Evan, the Naniwa Chosera (now called Professional) 1k is my favorite bevel setter. It is a quick cutter and doesn't dish out too much for quite a long while.

Dinnermint beat me to it, but yeah I was speaking in general terms. A lot of folks use the pro 1k as a bevel setter, it seems to be the favorite around here. The specialty stone line is also good, and Lynn from SRD speaks very highly of the traditional 1k as a bevel setter.

So basically whether you go Specialty or Professional, you would be happy with your hones. I've never seen an ill word spoken about Naniwa hones.

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Originally Posted by Kees

Excellent explanation however the differentiation of stages is purely artificial to aid understanding of the process. The stages blend into one another while you go.

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I was going to say exactly this but you perfectly beat me to it. I only am repeating this to emphasize the point that the stages can and should blend together. This is exactly the reason why ALL honing stages, whatever number of them you consider there to be, can all be accomplished on one single hone. You can bevel set with heavy pressure and then gradually transition to lighter and lighter pressure and progress from dull to shaving sharp all on a single hone.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

The stages of SR honing:

They do not change only the tools that you use to accomplish them change

Bevel setting - Establishes the base surfaces and insures that the two faces of the bevel meet in a sharp even edge

Sharpening - Further refinement of the bevel and brings the two faces to a more even stage in which they meet at an even thinner plane

Polishing - Polishes the faces of the bevels lessens the depth of the stria creating a smooth even surface for the finisher

Finisher - This can be a Hone or a Paste to impart a more comfortable aspect to the final edge

Honing 101, easy peasy explanation, now if you want to get highly technical we can discuss the multitude of ways to accomplish all four of those stages but to hone a SR to a close comfortable shaving edge you are going to have to climb those steps up the ladder :) You can can call them different things and you can add steps subtract steps or combine steps but you are going to have to climb them

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Originally Posted by Kees

Excellent explanation however the differentiation of stages is purely artificial to aid understanding of the process. The stages blend into one another while you go.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I was going to say exactly this but you perfectly beat me to it. I only am repeating this to emphasize the point that the stages can and should blend together. This is exactly the reason why ALL honing stages, whatever number of them you consider there to be, can all be accomplished on one single hone. You can bevel set with heavy pressure and then gradually transition to lighter and lighter pressure and progress from dull to shaving sharp all on a single hone.

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Yep that is exactly what I said

Would there be any benefit to using a Chinese 12k before transitioning from a Norton 8k to a naniwa 12k?

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Originally Posted by Aaron27

Would there be any benefit to using a Chinese 12k before transitioning from a Norton 8k to a naniwa 12k?

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Not really. All you'd be doing is wasting time. The Naniwa 12K is almost certainly going to be a finer finish than your Chinese 12K, because it's going to be a true 12K finish and not a number attached to a natural stone just to sell hones. You'd be lucky if your Chinese 12K is actually finer than your Norton 8K. If it isn't, you'd be taking a step back before moving forward. If it is somewhere between your 8 and your 12, then it's just going to be slow going polishing the blade up to the Chinese 12K's potential because it cuts slow. By comparison you could probably move from the Norton 8 to the naniwa 12 and have the blade finished in 10-20 strokes because it's a pretty quick cutter.

That said, if you find you like the edges your Chinese 12K produces better than the Naniwa, you can always add that in at the tail end. It should take fewer strokes to get where you want to be coming off the Naniwa 12K than it does coming off the Norton 8K.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

Not really. All you'd be doing is wasting time. The Naniwa 12K is almost certainly going to be a finer finish than your Chinese 12K, because it's going to be a true 12K finish and not a number attached to a natural stone just to sell hones. You'd be lucky if your Chinese 12K is actually finer than your Norton 8K. If it isn't, you'd be taking a step back before moving forward. If it is somewhere between your 8 and your 12, then it's just going to be slow going polishing the blade up to the Chinese 12K's potential because it cuts slow. By comparison you could probably move from the Norton 8 to the naniwa 12 and have the blade finished in 10-20 strokes because it's a pretty quick cutter.

That said, if you find you like the edges your Chinese 12K produces better than the Naniwa, you can always add that in at the tail end. It should take fewer strokes to get where you want to be coming off the Naniwa 12K than it does coming off the Norton 8K.

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That is true, but only initially.....if compared, the 2 stones might tilt towards Naniwa, if the 2 stones are brand new,However, the characteristics of the 2 stones are greatly different. A Naniwa stone of 12000 grit will always be at that grit range....however a Chinese Natural stone can surpass it if the stone is used. Like any natural stone, the more it is used, the finer the surface crystals will be more refined, and that changes the grit quality. So....for example a natural stone might be considered a 12000 grit, but over time can produce edges in the 15000-17000 grit range. No synthetic stone can do that, for their surface crystals never change after prolonged, and light pressure use.

One of the best natural stone is the Ozuku Asagi.....but the surface molecules (crystals) can produce an edge in the 15000-25000 grit range, even if the initial grit range is around 8-10000 grit. Ozuku Asagi Japanese Natural Sharpening Stone 1664.4g (3lb. 10.8oz.)

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Originally Posted by ksst

No synthetic stone can do that, for their surface crystals never change after prolonged, and light pressure use.

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Nope. That is not correct. Some synthetics can burnish for an altered cutting effect.

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Originally Posted by ksst

One of the best natural stone is the Ozuku Asagi

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This is a false generality
Natural stones can and do vary dramatically in quality. Some Ozuku Asagi hones are of high quality, but there is no guarantee that every blue/gray rock from that mountain is a great hone.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Nope. That is not correct. Some synthetics can burnish for an altered cutting effect.

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My experience with the Naniwa, Shapton stones always produced the same type of edge....my Arky Trans produces a vastly superior edge right now, after prolonged use, compared to the time when I purchased it from Dan's whetstones. So is my Ozuku Asagi, and Okudo white suita.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

This is a false generality
Natural stones can and do vary dramatically in quality. Some Ozuku Asagi hones are of high quality, but there is no guarantee that every blue/gray rock from that mountain is a great hone.

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But they do perform the same way......to my knowledge, all of them improves the quality of the edge, compared to the time when they were new. I agree, not all of them are of a great quality, but their performance increases after prolonged use. That was my point.

There's a limit to how burnished a stone can get. I can assure you that my PHIG is at it's limit, and it caps out somewhere above 8K, but most likely not 12K. The surface was polished up to 8K and has been further burnished with carbon and tool steel blades to get it as fine as humanly possible - it's seen a few thousand strokes by this point. The only way to refine the edges the stone gives beyond this is use with oil. Which you won't see me doing because I rather like it as a base for slurry work, and the edge with water alone is more than refined enough for my purposes.

There may be a PHIG out there somewhere that burnishes better than mine, but I've yet to see anyone say that theirs matches, much less tops, a 12K with water as the honing medium. There are a few well burnished translucent/surgical black Arkies that can. I've seen claims about Jnats being able to go in excess of 12K. I've got a Welsh Slate that probably tops out above 12K, I would put it's edges right on par with my Translucent Arkies. But I've never seen that said about the Chinese 12K, and everyone seems to have 1 lying around somewhere.

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Originally Posted by ksst

My experience with the Naniwa, Shapton stones always produced the same type of edge.

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This is another case of generalities. Naniwa and Shapton do not represent all synthetic hones, but I understand your point.