Hi guys,
A shop close to me is selling a Naniwa 10000 Specialty Stone and I thought it might make a good beginners first honing stone. Just something to use when stropping isn't enough. Good idea or bad?
Thanks guys
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Hi guys,
A shop close to me is selling a Naniwa 10000 Specialty Stone and I thought it might make a good beginners first honing stone. Just something to use when stropping isn't enough. Good idea or bad?
Thanks guys
A 10000 will do well as a touch up stone in my opinion. Just a few passes over it should refresh the edge quite nicely.
But be sure to use tape IF your razor was honed with it or you'll damage your edge
Provided the price is right. <£65
The 10K speciality stone gets good reviews. The difference between the 10K and the 12K is going to be very little.
https://uk.knivesandtools.com/en/pt/...one-sp-490.htm
Why do you say that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieseld
Wouldn't keeping the same same angle be proper honing?
It is a good stone to have as a refresher but the edge has to be shave ready. It is a finishing stone.
I always recommend the norton 4000/8000 as the first hone as it can do more. 9 times outta 10 you'll wanna do more with honing soon anyway. That stone can set bevel and refine to shave ready .
Yes, but not keeping the same angle will not "damage your edge."Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieseld
If you hone with tape when the previous honer did not, a microbevel initially will be formed and with time and more subsequent honing that microbevel will extend farther from the edge until it fully replaces the old bevel angle.
If you hone without tape when the previous honer did use tape, a bevel will form at the shoulder of the bevel--opposite from the edge. Initially the edge will not make contact with the hone at all. With more honing the new bevel will widen until it reaches all the way to the edge.
In either case, it does not take very much honing to transition from one angle to the other. In my opinion neither will harm the edge. Worst case scenario, as in the second example above, it will not affect the edge.
Being very new to honing i do agree with Utopian. Just think about it. The angle and the thickness of the metal. 10k would be a nice stone for refinishing. But what do i know.
Thanks for the reply and explanation. It is much appreciated
I have used the Naniwa Super Stone 10K (which is basicly the same as Specialty Stone, or am I wrong) for a few years. It is a good stone, and you can use it as a finnisher/touch up stone. I do sometimes use another stone after the 10k, but it is not necessary.
I lerned to hone on my Naniwa SS stones too, and they where good learning stones In my opinion.
So my answer would be that it is a good idea!
If the price isnt too high, but we are not really allowed to discuss that here.
If you eventually want to learn to hone, I would recomend bying a combo stone, with 10K on one side. That will reduce the total cost of your hone set, because you will need at least 3+ different grit sizes...
Good luck!
Jacke
The only Naniwa combinations I'm familiar with are the 3/8 specialty stone, and the low grit ceramic ones that we really don't see used often as razor stones. Not that there isn't one, but with all the looking at Naniwas, those are the only ones I've laid eyes on. With a 10K I'd say the 3/8 is kinda redundant as you wouldn't necessarily need the 8K. I'd go 1/2/5/10 personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackeHj
But agreed, the 10K is a good place to start. And you can pick up lower grit stones on an as-needed basis.
Price is relative. I'd be willing to pay a few dollars extra if I could walk into a store to get it without having to sit back a week and wait for shipping. But that's just me, YMMV.
I have a 220/1000 combo and a 3000/10000 combo in the Super Stone series... (the 220 grit isnt really usefull for razors at all, exept maby for breadknifing) they do exist. But I dont know how it is now with the specialty stones...
I agree, I prefer bying from stores in person.
Must be something they don't have available in the US markets. Just did a quick search and only saw the standard 3/8 option.
Might be...
This is a store I found on a quick search, from Germany.
http://https://www.fine-tools.com/naniwa-stones.html
They have a 800/5000 combo too, a stone on my list...
I've seen the 800/5K stone too. Shame that's not a 1k/5k. Then with 2 stones you could have the 1/3/5/8 progression people seem so fond of. I guess in theory the 800 works too, and probably for a wider range of cutlery.
I agree! But still, with 2 combo stones you can get 800/3k/5k/8k or 10k. And that quite alright, I dont know about setting a bevel on the 800 though, it might not be optimal for razors at all...
Btw, I only use 1/3/10. Quite a gap from 3 to 10, but if I spend some time on the 10k it is alright! I wouldn't say this is the best progression, but it works fine for me so far :)
Skipping stones is just a matter of being willing to spend extra time on the next step up. And I've seen 1 stone instructions for just about every finishing hone known to man. So a lot of these high grit hones are actually quite flexible.
I've used the 800 to set bevels. Better for chip removal, followed by a good 1k. But it can be done. You just have to spend extra time on the next stone because the 800 grit naturally leaves deeper scratches than a 1k.
Really the largest benefit to the "right" progression is expedience. Using the right hone at the right time will save you strokes, thus time, on the later phases.
If the edge was honed with tape and you do not use tape, it will not hurt the edge but neither will it improve it until as Ron says, the new bevel extends to the apex.
Sharpie the bevel, make a light pass or two across the hone and look at the bevel with magnification. You'll be able to see if it was honed with tape or not. If the Sharpie is removed to the apex you're good to go.
Cheers, Steve
If your ever planning on buying the Naniwa 12k, then I would say that the 10k would have to be a lot cheaper than the 12k to make it worth buying. JMO
I have a full set of Naniwa sharpening stones (new Superstones), every available grit. I do not need that many, but I like having them. It reduces the number of strokes I need to hone a razor.
The Naniwas are very nice stones. The Naniwa 12K can put a mirror polish on an edge, but on some types of steel you can get microchips in the edge. Also the 12K edge can be a little harsh/too keen on some razors. The Naniwa 10K does not seem to have either problem.
Although the 10K can be used as a finisher, I like the finish of a natural stone more so than the synthetics. The edge might not be quite as polished as on a Naniwa 12K, but the balance between sharp and smooth seems to be better. Thus, my current progression starts on the Naniwa 1K, takes me up through the 10K and then on to a natural stone for finishing.
Getting a Naniwa 10K is a good way to get into honing. It will be good for refreshing razors. Then if you want to go into other aspects of honing, add a Naniwa 1K and 5K. That will give you a bevel setter, a mid range and a finisher. Then, if you can afford it, add the intermediate stones.
A lot of people like the Norton stones, but realize that Norton and Naniwa rate grits on a different scale. Norton stones do not go higher than an 8K and their 8K is similar in grit to a Naniwa 5K, so it is not a true finisher, although some people shave off one. You can go from a Norton 8K to another finishing stone, but if you want a series of stones with a similar feel, Naniwas are a good choice.
Actually Norton rates their water stones on the JIS scale.
For how it actually performs, check out Grazors comment - last post in this thread:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...-5k-jis-3.html
Really the only 'problem' with Norton hones is the lack of anything beyond 8K. And that's not really a problem - but they are considering fixing it. People have finished on the Norton 8K and gotten close/clean/comfortable shaves. They've also gone from the yellow brick to the Naniwa 10K/12K, every natural finisher known to man kind, CBN, FeOx, Diamond and Chrome Ox, Shapton 12/16/30K hones, the Gok 20, and I follow up with a Kuromaku 12K when I'm in the mood to create a ridiculously sharp synthetic edge.
Comparing the Norton 1/4/8 to Naniwa 1/3/5/8, Shapton 1/2/4/8, or King 1/4-6/8 is like comparing a 30-06 to a pair of .308s. and a .303 Brit. Realistically there isn't much that one can do that the other 3 can't. Just a matter of figuring out which one of the Big 4 appeal to you and having at it. All roads lead to Rome.
Norton is an American company, but they are owned by Saint-Goban, a French company. Thus, they are more likely to use North American (ANSI/CASI) or European standards (FEPA) to rate their abrasives than they are to use the the current Japanese Industrial Standard (JIS).Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
I am basing my statement of Norton 8K being similar to a Naniwa 5K based on the following chart:
http://www.imcclains.com/productinfo...on%20Chart.pdf
I cannot verify the accuracy of the information in the file, but it looks like someone went to a lot of trouble to generate it. The chart shows a Norton 4K at 6 microns and a Norton 8K at 3 microns. The chart also shows the JIS 4K being 3 microns. The Naniwa 5K is a JIS stone so it should be less than 3 micron and thus comparable to the Norton 8K.
I specifically stated in my post that a lot of people like Norton stones and it is possible to shave off a Norton 8K. However, I have a tough, fast-growing beard and sensitive skin, so my standards for a shave ready edge are quite high. I do not consider either the Naniwa 5K or 8K to be suitable for producing a shave ready edge. Thus, it is unlikely I would enjoy shaving off a Norton 8K, but YMMV. Of course, those who do not have a true finishing stone can always use a variety of abrasive pastes and sprays to compensate for that omission. Hopefully, Norton will add a higher grit waterstone suitable for finishing.
The advantage of the Naniwa stones is that you get a similar feel for every stone in the series.
I have read that the Norton 4K and 8K individual stones seem to have a similar fee. However, I have also read that some people do not like the feel of the 4K side of a 4K/8K dual hone. I have not used the Norton waterstones, so I cannot comment from personal experience. I am only reporting what I have read. Again YMMV.
I find the Norton stones to be...different in the feedback category. As you say, Naniwa seems to keep a similar feel through the line up. Norton stones start off feeling quite aggressive/gritty at the 1K and get smoother as you work up the line. The 4k single grit is noticeably more gritty than the 8k, even if it doesnt have a porous manufacturing defect found in some 4k stones.I like that, but I can see where folks might prefer a similar feedback through the range like Naniwa provides.
I know they rate them by JIS, or at least they say they do. I suspect that is based on the hone's performance rather than it's cutting material particulate size. They don't auto slurry or wear as much as Naniwa stones seem to, I suspect that like a Spyderco Ceramic hone or a Swaty barber hone the harder binder in a Norton hone allows them to use coarser material for a finer polish.
On one hand, I want to get another 8K to compare to. On the other, I don't want (another) stone that's just going to sit around collecting dust. I rarely use my synthetic stones as-is. Maybe one of these days I'll spot a well worn Naniwa, King, or Shapton 8k for sale cheap that I can pick up for testing purposes.
There seems to be some confusion as to the ratings of Norton waterstones.
I found a document on the Norton web site as referenced below.
http://www.nortonabrasives.com/sites....pdf?t=2410995
It seems to indicate that the Norton waterstones are referenced according to JIS, but it also specifically indicates that the Norton 4000 stone is 6 micron and the Norton 8000 stone is 3 micron. That is exactly the information I provided in my previous posting.
There are two JIS ratings. There is an older JIS and there is a new JIS. Perhaps, Norton is going by the older JIS system.
Naniwa is now using the New JIS system for rating their stones. Thus, I still believe that a Norton 8000 (3 micron according to Nortons own information) is similar in grit to a Naniwa 5000 which by the new JIS system should be slightly less than 3 microns. When you specify grit levels there is always some confusion as to how the grit is rated. When you specify microns, there is less confusion.
Of course, the micron size of an abrasive particle does not tell the entire story. Particle shape is also important. Although the garnet crystals in a Coticule may be several microns in size, the dodecahedral (12 sided) shape of the crystal allows it to deliver a scratch pattern much finer than an octahedral (8 sided) crystal of similar size.
It's not the old JIS scale. Old JIS scale ended at 3K, 5.7 Microns. If the old one had continued to rate grit finer than 5.7 microns, 3 microns would come in around 5.5K or 6K grit.
It remains irrelevant to compare grits of different hone series. The size of the grit is not the only factor that affects scratch pattern. As long as you progress up a single series of hones you'll be fine, but if you want to compare the size of grit of a Norton hone versus a Naniwa hone, the only valid way to make that comparison is by scratch pattern.
I wonder just how many times that old Grit Comparison chart is going to cause this same old discussion :shrug:
Just about every time...:deadhorse:Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Excellent explanation.
The dead horse shall be beaten until morale improves.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Or until someone sits down with a bunch of 8K stones and a good microscope to lay the argument to rest.
Addendum: might also change when people realize they're honing with every component in the hone, not just the loose grit that's doing the cutting.
Good info clearly stated. Thank you sir...Quote:
Originally Posted by RayClem