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The title says it all. I'm ordering a 3k/8k hone from China and I'm seeing a lot of variation in price for what looks the same product. When a brand is visible, its either Taidea or Eleed (or something similar).
Are there real difference between them?
I have questions.
Your join date was a month ago.
How long have you been using a straight razor?
Have you mastered making lather?
Have you mastered stropping?
Have you mastered using a straight to shave with?
If you haven't mastered these Vital Tasks/Why are you ordering this unknown hone OR any other hone?
I'm just wondering :shrug:
No difference really. They're all cheap Chinese Junk. Might be good enough to get some sort of edge on the razor, but I haven't seen anyone buy them and use them for any length of time without biting the bullet and upgrading to one of the big four (Norton, Naniwa, Shapton, or King). And once they do, they never look back. My suggestion - skip throwing away $ on hones that will end up on a shelf collecting dust and save for a quality hone.
If you want something cheap to get you through, look into Barber hones and/or the King 1/6.
Obviously no. Nobody can master all that in a month.Quote:
Originally Posted by cudarunner
The long story short is that somebody I know is coming from China and I can ask him to make his luggage a bit heavier for me. Plus use that on my knives.
I don't like the oversimplification that all Chinese manufacturing sucks. It is an helpful rule of thumb, perhaps, but too coarse for my liking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
This pattern you describe, you have seen that consistently? Across brands?
Also, are you telling me that a King 6k will give me a better edge than any Chinese 8k??? Because that'd be very good news for me!
King and the other well-known Japanese brands are companies with reputations. When they say their product has a particular grit rating they mean it and they can quote chapter and verse on the applicable national standards and quality control systems they follow to achieve compliance with them. When the Chinese manufacturers start doing that they will be worth considering. It is probably only a matter of time before this happens; their manufacturing industry is vast and export focused so I'm sure there will eventually be very good hones coming from China.
The real answer is that no one knows the answer here as no one has that hone. It might be OK. It might not be. :)
I don't much care for that rule of thumb either, and I love a cheap hone that's also good. Unfortunately, when it comes to synthetics the cheap ones are often not good. I can vouch for Shapton Kuromakus as being good and not too spendy. Same can be said for King hones, though the 8K is a bit spendy and their 10k is hard to find.Quote:
Originally Posted by malaverdiere
China is a big place, and there may be some hone out there that is actually good. However, taidea/weiwei hones specifically have been noted as softer than hones from the big 4, and often perform like a hone 1 to 2K lower than what it's rated.
So in the case of those hones, yes the weiwei 8k is about the same as a King 6K. I have a Chinese natural that is one of my favorite hones, but I can't recommend those as they are hit or miss and you may have to purchase a few to find a good one. By the time you've filed through 3 or 4 Cnats you'd have been money ahead to purchase a Naniwa 12K.
They are inexpensive knife, tool hones. All hones that we use are designed for knives and tools, razor honing is a very small part of the market and we use those that have proven to work well for razors.
There are other factors, than grit size that make a hone suitable for razor honing, one is the binder. This is where inexpensive stone makers skimp.
Those stones have been tried by other on this and other forums for razors without good results. As I recall the stones are very soft and aggressive. Read the reviews on Amazon as well. There are many threads on those stones, as new honers are attracted to them because of price.
Those stones are designed for the throw away knife market. Someone that will sharpen a knife once a year, and anything is an improvement.
For an inexpensive starter set a King, 1k and a 4/8 Norton or 3/8 Naniwa is hard to beat, right around $100.
And No, you will still need at least an 8k, a razor edge does not get really straight until an 8K edge. The straighter the edge the smoother the shave.
The Japanese Industrial Standard for abrasives specifies not only the average size of particles for a specific grit rating, but also the allowable distribution of particle sizes. That is the advantage of the Japanese synthetics.
A Chinese company might make a hone with the same average particle size as a Japanese hone, yet if the distribution of particle sizes is greater than allowed for a Japanese hone, the response of a razor edge to that hone will be different. For a knife edge or woodworking tool edge, the difference might not be significant. With a razor edge, you might notice the difference or you might not, depending on your razor, your honing techniques, and your face.
Few SRP users have significant experience with the inexpensive Chinese synthetics. So many of the comments you get about them will be anecdotal. For those of us who hone our own razors, 3K and 8K synthetics usually are considered to be mid-range hones. There are some people who shave off an 8K hone, but most people want to finish on a finer grit hone, either synthetic or natural. If you get a suitable finishing stone, the type of hone you use for the mid-range grits will be of lesser importance.
Some have commented on the Taidea hone being softer than Japanese hones. While the longevity of a hone is important to those who hone razors every day, for those of us who only hone the razors we use ourselves, nearly any hone will last a lifetime.
If you do decide to pick up the Chinese mid-range hone, I would also suggest getting a Chinese Guangxi 12K natural hone to accompany it. While the C12K is far from the best finishing hone available, it would be an improvement on the 8K synthetic. The C12K is heavy, however, so bringing it back in luggage might be an issue.
You know, now that I think about it a bit more buying a Guangxi hone (C12K/Cnat) might not be a bad idea. Since your friend is actually in-country, he may be able to talk to the dealer and have them select a good rock for finishing a razor. They may know how to differentiate between a fine polishing Guangxi and a mid-grade stone that's better suited to tools and knives.
That depends, where you buy. If it's a simple reseller, they won't be able to help you. Or worse: they will tell anything to sell something. If you buy from a specialised shop for woodworking, they might know. On the other hand, asking the locals in china involves a certain language barrier, english will not help you much outside of the airport. :hmmm:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gcbryan
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayClem
You know guys at the top of this page, to the right is a search box
If you type in the single word "Taidea" you get over 4 pages of threads with 100's of responses about these hones over the years
If you expand that search to include other names you will find even more info..
To say that SRP users haven't tried these hones is simply not accurate..
To the OP you might open the Advanced Search Box and really have some fun :)
Taking in consideration all you guys mentioned, I discussed with my friend and told him that I needed a better quality brand than WeiWei and Taidea. He will resort to everybody's favorite plan B: "asking around" for the best brand/product/seller. Good thing that HE speaks Chinese.
And it is a good thing that he's got a little time before flying!
As for the C12K,(I haven't mentioned it yet. I wonder if it has a name that locals would know - because I don't have a good feeling with "that stone from Guangxi province". I have tried to look it up on TaoBao, and I only got Japanese synthetics at that grit level. There were some natural stones advertised in the 8-10K range, but they don't look like any PHIG picture I saw so far.
That sounds like a sensible thing to do! Getting started now. I wonder how much 'fun' I'll have. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I did a search for Taidea. There are only three threads with Taidea in the title of the post in the entire forum. In the past twelve months, there have been only nine threads that reference Taidea; most of those threads only mention Taidea incidentally. Thus, in comparison to Naniwa, Norton, King and Shapton hones that are well documented, the Taidea stones have limited interest among SRP members. In a thread from 2015, JimmyHAD, who is one of the honing subforum moderators, stated that he had never heard of Taidea hones prior to that thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayClem
Oddly I found over 4 pages of them, sounds like you simply don't want to look... The Title may or may not have the info, that is why you search the word
This is a very common question and pretty much always gets the same answer
I bought a set of all grids between 1K and 10K last year. Some resellers here in germany tried to conquer the german Ebay market and started a price war. I got each stone for 4 €, the combination stones for 6 € and even a TAIDEA diamond plate 320/600 for 4 €. At that price it's a good deal. You can saw it into smaller naguras or use it as a beater for other knifes. I used them to smooth a C12K, at least that worked to some degree. Slates will benefit from a somewhat classified nagura.
I tried the set with two razors: a ZY and an antique german. 1K and 3K: both microchips, definitely no razor stones. 5K: aggressive and 4K at best. But you can work out the mircochips if you have the patience. 8K: 6K to 7K at best and still very aggressive. 10K: there you have your 8K, aggressive and fast. The edge of the 10K is "shave-ready". If you live on a remote island and never heard of japanese waterstones, then it will provide you with a shaveable edge for your daily needs. Caleb Mccullough mentioned in one of his SOTD videos on YouTube, that he contacted TAIDEA and asked, how they are supposed to be used for razors. And anecdotely, the representative (or someone who spoke enough english to answer) said, they use them with oil. And yes: the 10K edge improves with oil, but you better live on a remote island to like the edge... :shrug:
I am proficient at the use of the Advanced Search feature.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
When I searched for the word "Taidea" in the entire text, I got the same pages you noted. Thus, I did not feel it was necessary to repeat what you had already noted. I was not going to read all of the threads, so I thought I would narrow the search.
I then limited my search to "Taidea" in the title only as I figured those threads would have the greatest relevance. That is when I had only three hits. I was hoping one of the threads might do a full review of the hone, but no such luck.
Then I went back and searched the entire text, but limited the search to the past twelve months. That search gave me the nine threads I noted. I looked through those posts, but found little useful information. Most only mentioned the Taidea hones in passing. I figured that if there were so few threads about the hones in the past year, they must not be very popular as razor hones among SRP members.
ExactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by RayClem
They are not popular because they have proved to be lacking for SR use
Pretty much the same thread as this over and over and over
"Are these any good for SR's,,, I found them cheap on Ebay" ???
"No"
But that isn't what you said, you implied that SRP members didn't have experience with using them so therefore we could not answer the question ..
That is simply wrong, just like I have said a few times nowQuote:
Originally Posted by RayClem
Not really sure what you are arguing about any longer, the question has been asked and answered accurately a few times now
These are simply not all that great for SR use...
Limiting your search to the past 12 months is sort of antithetical to "proficient at advanced searches. It never ceases to amaze me how many people as a question that has been answered a hundred times before, but the relevant thread isnt on the first few pages so they assume it must not exist, or is some how less relevant now.Quote:
Originally Posted by RayClem
If a newb asks about the Norton 8k, should he ignore the Infamous JaNorton thread where everybody took up the hone to see how much they could squeeze out of it? see http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...on-2012-a.html
There is often more info in a single the older thread where some of the most knowledgeable of members once posted than in an entire years worth of "new" posts.
Seek and ye shall find!
I figured your friend spoke Chinese, that's why I mentioned the hone by the province. Not that you'd really need him to ferry one over, but if her did manage to pick it up cheaper than 30 or 40 bones so much the better. At any rate, giving him the location of the quarry might help him ferret out what the Chinese call it better than referring to it as a PHIG/Cnat/C12K. Especially since they may not even bother grit rating them over there, I would think he would have better luck with "Guangxi Hone" than "Chinese 12K hone."Quote:
Originally Posted by malaverdiere
I also had pretty good luck with the ZY #3000 razor hone. Paid all of 16 bucks for it from ebay, shipping included. Only makes about an 8K edge, and the stone kind of stinks (strong earthy smell). But it shaved more comfortably than my Norton 8K. Thinner ones can be had cheaper. In fact I'd recommend a cheaper one since the thick one was just several thin slats glued together.
I managed to find an eBay listing with the picture of the hone's box in Chinese. The English side only says 'Natural polishing stone' and 'This vety fine-grit stone, was cut from the sedimentary rock in a natural quarry' (yes, it was written like that) and 'Soak in water for 30 minutes prior to use. Keep surface wet while in use. Requires periodic flattening for best results.'Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
So I asked my friend 'can you find _that_?'
I understand that I'm not supposed to link to eBay listings, so I'm just mentioning it in case somebody else stumbles in this thread in 1+ years using the advanced search feature ;)
If anybody knows how to OCR Chinese characters, I can send the link in PM and we can update the wiki entry for the PHIG.
Magpie, I totally agree with you. At the same time, this site has a wiki, and its purpose is to summarize what the community has learned. So if a newbie like me doesn't find something in the wiki, its reasonable to assume that the question is fair game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magpie
As a side-question - I may update the wiki a bit if you guys don't mind - do we need moderators give me special rights to do that?
Well I had a 3k/8k Chinese hone unbranded made of aluminum oxide it was wearing out really fast. Total of 3/16" in only four months. It has only been used about 10 times. So when I read earlier in the thread about the binders being skimped on I would have to agree. At that rate I would have saved money going with a norton like I have now. Saves money in the long run.
Advance apologies for going :OTAQuote:
Originally Posted by malaverdiere
wiki is nothing more than a "Readers Digest Condensed Version" or a "Clif Notes" version.
Its good to get a basic idea of something, it is not intended to be a know all/tell all compendium of knowledge on a particular subject. And the big problem with "wiki" style info is that it CAN be edited. And those edits may not always be more accurate/correct than what was there before, only a reflection of the editors personal opinions.
I'm not sure if THIS site needs special permissions for wiki updates. Feel free to look in the wiki for that info, instead of asking in a soon to be forgotten thread post.
This is also :OT
You can read the summaries and the links I added on the wiki:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi..._Guangxi_Hones
http://straightrazorpalace.com/srpwi...)_do_I_need%3F