Question About Being "Done" on an Arkie

Okay, so I started on the Surgical Black mentioned in my other thread with two I had in my stable that were at least nominally shave-ready, but both full-hollows that can be kind of "scrapy" on my face. One is a Torrey, and the other is a George Butler "Shakespeare" razor.

I don't really count strokes any more, especially on naturals, but spent about 15 minutes on each razor on the prepped SB on water with a drop of dish soap, using a combination of back and forths, circles and x-strokes with moderate torque on the edge. Pretty quickly I started getting that "sticky" feeling with some squeak and a feeling that the blade wanted to dig in, almost exactly like the final strokes on a hard JNAT. I then lightened up and continued, refreshing the water and soap as needed to keep things gliding along, and it kept coming back on both blades, so I figured I'd finish with some ultra-light passes and quit while I was ahead (operating under the assumption that any real digging in of a blade into an ultra-hard ark surface would be disastrous!). I sealed the deal with 40 linen and 60 leather stropping strokes, and both passed the HHT all along a near-mirror bevel.

Do you Arkie experts get that stickiness, and is it a reliable measure of being done as on some other naturals? I don't recall getting this much on my 4x2 translucent (maybe because less of the blade is in contact with the hone at any given time?).

Another thing: although conventional wisdom from my extensive reading holds that arkies need hundreds of strokes and a lot of time to work their magic, I have read some others say that because of the unique nature of the stone, more pressure can be used than on, say, a Coti or other finishers, thus speeding things up considerably. This is what I was trying to achieve, and both edges "seem" to confirm that it worked. I'm also considering switching to oil in the theory that the extra cushion might allow for a hair more pressure, as I've seen on a couple of arkie honing videos.

For now, these are all just theories. I'd love some input into them from you experienced users re technique and being "done."

As I shaved this morning, I'll need to sprout some hair again before doing the real test.

Thanks in advance-Aaron

I prefer Smith's honing solution on my Black and Trans Arkies. You will sense how much torque/pressure is needed.

Norton's on the coarser Arkies.

I rely on what I see under the loupe. To me the sound is just metal vibrating across a poorly lubricated surface. Even with soap in the mix water's not a great lubricant. I dislike sticking and usually try to stop before it occurs. If it does, I know I should move on to the next phase or call it done if I'm on the last step.

How many strokes it takes is relative. Coming to a translucent stone from a Hard Arkie or an 8K I normally do about 200 strokes, half on water the other half on wet shave lather. I could probably get away with 50 to 75 strokes on each, but it's therapeutic so I don't mind the extra time spent. And it isn't much, maybe 5 to 6 minutes if I'm poking around. Or I could take it to the 12K stone, then do 25 to 30 on wet lather and be happy with the result.

With regard to pressure I treat them like any other finishing stone. Less is more. If I did my job on the previous stone polish should be fairly high, scratches minimal, and blade very close to ready. It might take a few more strokes than if I mixed pressure in, but I can live with that.

Yes, switch to mineral oil (baby oil). The stickiness probably coming from the soap starting to dry out. I agree with Marshall, 200 minimum strokes. For me it's a comfort thing. Hone in left hand, razor in right, settled in front to of TV, put on a favorite hour show, commence stroking, at end of show you're likely done.

Once you get some experience on your Black try going dry and wash stone after honing session. The lubricant is mainly to keep the swarf afloat and not embed into the stone. If you wash afterwards with Dawn, the swarf will all wash away.

So I tested those 2 hollow-grinds this evening, with mixed results (which you can take with a grain of salt as I'm a relatively inexperienced Arkie user working on a stone I'm still breaking in).

The George Butler "Shakespeare" razor that I worked on yesterday on water and dish soap was "okay" from all angles, though still a tiny bit scrapy. It had passed the HHT and was tree-topping leg hair all along the edge after honing and stropping last night, which just goes to show you. Will work on it some more.

For the Torrey, I did a little extra. After reading LHT's advice re mineral oil and watching some videos, I put 6 drops of lavender baby oil (hey-it's what I had, shut up!) on the surface and just started honing away. Again, I didn't count laps, but just kept going (I'm guessing for a few hundred laps) because it was so much smoother and more enjoyable letting the blade glide over the thin film of oil-it really just gave silky, almost greased bowling ball feedback. I Stropped again afterward (my usual 40/60 or so), and this one was noticeably smoother than the other.

I think I'm going to stick with baby oil for now and see how I do as the hone gets slicker and my technique improves. Thanks for the tips and encouragement! Aaron

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

So I tested those 2 hollow-grinds this evening, with mixed results
.....
I think I'm going to stick with baby oil for now and see how I do as the hone gets slicker and my technique improves. Thanks for the tips and encouragement! Aaron

---

I do not count myself an Arkie expert but based on the ones I have less is more.
Once you had an edge be gentle to recover it.

Any light oil can work from mineral oil to WD40.

I do not think of any Arkie as an abrasive for steel I think of it as a sheep's foot compactor that will both reshape and
even harden steel.

I thought I wrecked my Black after lapping it with a coarse DMT. It took a lot of
burnishing to calm the surface down, it remembered the coarse DMT and reminded
me over and over. I resorted to slurry from my Naniwas to speed up the burnishing
and finished with a spray of 0.25micron CBN.

I get nicer results with less effort from modern hones. Your rocks might be better than mine
so do not be discouraged.

The nice thing about a less is more approach is if it needs more you can give it more.
If you worried it too much you cannot undo the last 150 laps..

Try honing with the same gentle touch you shave with.

You will have to learn, your stone to get your best results, remember steel and grinds differ.

I too like Smith’s or Ballistol on a wet stone. I do go to an Ark, after an 8K Snow White or 12k Super Stone, with a very shallow stria bevel and super straight edge. Add oil or water a drop at a time as needed, you don’t need much.

Do X laps until you feel the edge is done. Strop the razor on linen and leather, 6-10 laps each and do 10-20 edge trailing strokes back on the stone with light pressure.

Yes, with Arks I use a bit more pressure initially, lighten your pressure for your finish laps.

Keep testing as you are doing and you will fine tune, your system for your stone for the results you are looking for.

And then there is, The Micro bevel… and the Nano bevel…. Really the same thing, just a matter of degree. Works great with Arks.

Thanks for all the feedback-Really, I just enjoy learning and figuring out new challenges, so figuring this stone out intrigues me more than anything. Much simpler than the JNAT nagura progression I was playing with earlier this year. I may come back to that later.

edit: I just did about 20 minutes with that George Butler riding smooth on 5-6 drops of oil, followed by stropping. More results to report when I grow some whiskers again, but I'm pretty sure that my stroke is getting faster and more fluid already just from the repetition. It's been worth it already for that step-up in a key muscle memory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

I'm pretty sure that my stroke is getting faster and more fluid already just from the repetition.

---

Careful with the speed. An Arkie can do a lot of damage to an edge if you break your concentration.

My favorite Ark lubes are mineral oil for Washita and soft, WD40 for hards, blacks, and trans. I've been using Arkies for various tasks for 40yrs but never reached my full potential using them until I started following forums like this. I've come farther as a honer in the last 3 years as I did in the last 35 years by studying here and on the web. I learned that wonderful things happen when dead flat and highly polished. I learned about lapping one side to a lower grit to refine an edge. Wish I would have learned these thing a long time ago. As I write this I'm working over a Norton HB6 colored trans with a Norton HB3 black with a dab of .5 micron diamond compound. Astonishing results. Arkies are a labor of love. Learn them well and you will be rewarded.

Yup, a shot of Nano Grit Diamond or CBN on a hard Ark or Jnat will produce some interesting edges.

Well, I just test-shaved both of the aforementioned razors after a couple of sessions on baby oil. While both were noticeably smoother, the Torrey still seems a little scrapy, but then again I'm not sure my face likes true "full" hollow razors. This one is almost a singing blade, and those sometimes give me trouble.

I'll keep working on them in any event, and try them on some heavier grinds with my own similar lower-grit honing regimen soon to compare.

Oh, and I was checking out the diamond grit last night on other sites. When you said .05, did you mean .50, because that is what I kept finding? I've never used diamond pastes or sprays before (DMT's and Smith's knife hones don't count)-another rabbit hole.:beer2:

Don’t know who you are asking, Nifty was talking about .25um quarter micron, CBN, about 60k grit.

Ken Schwartz does or did make a .050um Polycrystalline Diamond spray, 320,000 grit and I thought, Jende was carrying it, but I cannot find it on their site. They only carry down to .10um (160k grit) now.

Here is a link for it, they claim to have it in stock.

.050um Poly Diamond 320,000 grit, I have never dealt with them.

Ken was also making a .025 um, 640,000 grit and a .015um, 1,200,000 grit Poly Diamond spray. The .015um was selling for $350 for 2 ounces a few years (3-4) ago.

I have only used .50um and .25um Diamond, but prefer CBN for razors, I have CBN, in .50um, .25um .125um and .10um.

On stones, I use .50um (30k) and .25um, (60k), Diamond, for a nice finish, you don’t need much and are just finishing on diamond or CBN slurry.

.125um CBN (160,000) is ok, not all steels can handle it, but usually.50um (30K) or .25um CBN, (60k) is comfortable for me for stropping.

I use diamond sprays on knife edges occasionally, not on razors. A lot depends on your razor steel/grind and your skin and beard.

For me, I have calibrated an Arm-Hair test and HHT to know when I am done on my finisher. Not just pass-fail but how effortless vs how "grabby" for a lack of a better term. Then I shave test it. An Arkansas can really be taken to incredible heights in regards to the resulting edge. It is really hard to overdo it. I spend most of my time on the final finish which doesn't take long with a combination of "back n forth" strokes followed by X strokes. As for the feel on the stone, I haven't been able to use that reliably but as Marty said you really have to learn your own way and what works on your stone.

As for pressure, I use it as some use a slurry. Gradually reducing every set of strokes until I am down to weight of the blade X strokes.

You may want to cross check your stones capabilities against your translucent.

Thanks for the tips, Steel-I think LHT may have something with the idea of sitting down for an hour-long tv show and being "done" at the end of the show. That scrapy full-hollow Torrey finally smoothed out after about 4 15-ish minute sessions on oil over a period of a few days, followed by my usual stropping regimen and test-shave each time. And I'm definitely getting a gradual feel for the developing AHT and HHT's and how they relate too as the edge refines. So Arkies are definitely not for people who don't really enjoy honing, but then again I am slowly developing a sort of one-handed "windshield wiper" stroke on oil that is very repeatable, quite fast (but in a controlled way!), and enjoyable to do. But that stroke is completely unlike how I have ever honed before on any kind of stone.

You guys are all exactly right in that you have to learn what works for YOU on YOUR stone-very intimidating for guys who are new to naturals and come from a background of what I call "formula honing" (think Lynn's Pyramid many of us learned on). But that's exactly it-Keith on TomoNagura says that about his JNATs all the time-so true!

I am also slowly playing with the theory that an edge that is pretty much "there" off of synthetics might go a tad quicker on a couple hundred laps on water and dish soap (or runny lather). Maybe this is a little faster? Quick wash and dry, and really smooth it out on oil (which I am really enjoying honing on-strangely never really did it before much).

edit: I also was wondering just now (as I was knocking out another session on oil) is if I could really speed things up by starting on the flip side/rough side that I only finish-lapped to DMT 325?

And yes, I definitely plan to go back to the Trans (or Tranny in Kelbro speak:D) to see how they relate, if one can or should follow the other, etc. Very interesting journey so far! Aaron

That is a viable option to keep one side "prepped" or rough and use the finished side afterwards. An Arkansas that has been prepped with a DMT is surprisingly fast but lacks the ability, in my experience, to give a great finish so going from one side to the other is an option that works to both strengths.

I think, like with anything, as you gain experience with your stones it all becomes much easier and quicker. Thanks for your input and sharing your experience.

On stones, I use .50um (30k) and .25um, (60k), Diamond, for a nice finish, you don’t need much and are just finishing on diamond or CBN slurry.

Marty:
Can you tell me more about what stones you would be using the above noted Diamond and is this the Poly Diamond spray from Ken? I presume you would be using these same stones for the CBN, or would that be inaccurate?
Is there a thread that you outline this process?

Thanks
Frank

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steel

That is a viable option to keep one side "prepped" or rough and use the finished side afterwards. An Arkansas that has been prepped with a DMT is surprisingly fast but lacks the ability, in my experience, to give a great finish so going from one side to the other is an option that works to both strengths.

I think, like with anything, as you gain experience with your stones it all becomes much easier and quicker. Thanks for your input and sharing your experience.

---

Agreed in full. I keep one side of all my natural stones burnished, and the other side roughed up a bit. Usually somewheres around 400 - 1K sand paper/DMT etc. I typically use the rough side to transition from the previous hone, any slurry work I may want to do with the hone, or if I want to do a quick touch up on just the Arkie I'll use the rough side before using the burnished side.

I do have Diamond sprays from Ken and other sprays and pastes from other sources that I have tried.

Mostly I use Ken’s CBN because I like the finish better over Diamond. It is not something I do every time, but if you are looking for a little extra, it can be an easy way to get there, especially with Arks that are slower to finish.

I use this technique on hard Arks, Black and Translucent, Coticules or Jnats. Finishing with a micro bevel with an additional layer of tape is another option, as is stropping on a Chrome Oxide or CBN pasted strop prior to the finishing stone, and or finishing laps, and after honing.

This has been mentioned in several threads but not one that is specific to it, that I recall.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marshal

Agreed in full. I keep one side of all my natural stones burnished, and the other side roughed up a bit. Usually somewheres around 400 - 1K sand paper/DMT etc. I typically use the rough side to transition from the previous hone, any slurry work I may want to do with the hone, or if I want to do a quick touch up on just the Arkie I'll use the rough side before using the burnished side.

---

Marshal-You were one of the enablers who got me all hyped up about burnishing my natural finishers in that thread around Christmas as I recall. I did my translucent and my PHIG-didn't hone enough then to draw any conclusions. I've got a lot more time to play around this summer-we'll see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

Marshal-You were one of the enablers who got me all hyped up about burnishing my natural finishers in that thread around Christmas as I recall. I did my translucent and my PHIG-didn't hone enough then to draw any conclusions. I've got a lot more time to play around this summer-we'll see.

---

Hehe...I'm still not %100 sure if it actually did what I wanted it to do, or if my mind is playing tricks on me to justify all the elbow grease I put into flattening, polishing, polishing some more, then finally burnishing almost every natural stone in my inventory. But to my eye, and the feel on my face, they all seem to polish just a tic better than they ever had before. Jury's still out though. They all got a layer of CrOx that I buffed into em really good, and wiped down with mineral spirits to clean off the excess. But for all I know that little extra tic of keenness/polish could just be leftover CrOx the mineral spirits couldn't break up and pull off the stone. I have doubts though, it was the cheap WoodCraft CrOx they explicitly warn us razor users not to use for our blades.

Marshal, if you feel it is better than IT IS BETTER. Subjective or not! If the placebo effect works then bring it on. That's my feeling on the matter anyway. :rofl2:

A quick update: after a few more 15 minute sessions on oil, in which I refined both the edges and my technique, both of those harsh-feeling full hollows now give a close, very smooth shave with a very light touch. Interesting edge development-they now feel very sharp, brisk, precise (searching for the right adjectives here) but also smooth. And yes, as others have reported, they don't seem to want to cut skin.

Anyway, I'm really enjoying getting to know how far I can go with this stone, and actually enjoy my now daily sessions with it, so it doesn't feel like extra work to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

Okay, so I started on the Surgical Black mentioned in my other thread with two I had in my stable that were at least nominally shave-ready, but both full-hollows that can be kind of "scrapy" on my face. One is a Torrey, and the other is a George Butler "Shakespeare" razor.

I don't really count strokes any more, especially on naturals, but spent about 15 minutes on each razor on the prepped SB on water with a drop of dish soap, using a combination of back and forths, circles and x-strokes with moderate torque on the edge. Pretty quickly I started getting that "sticky" feeling with some squeak and a feeling that the blade wanted to dig in, almost exactly like the final strokes on a hard JNAT. I then lightened up and continued, refreshing the water and soap as needed to keep things gliding along, and it kept coming back on both blades, so I figured I'd finish with some ultra-light passes and quit while I was ahead (operating under the assumption that any real digging in of a blade into an ultra-hard ark surface would be disastrous!). I sealed the deal with 40 linen and 60 leather stropping strokes, and both passed the HHT all along a near-mirror bevel.

Do you Arkie experts get that stickiness, and is it a reliable measure of being done as on some other naturals? I don't recall getting this much on my 4x2 translucent (maybe because less of the blade is in contact with the hone at any given time?).

Another thing: although conventional wisdom from my extensive reading holds that arkies need hundreds of strokes and a lot of time to work their magic, I have read some others say that because of the unique nature of the stone, more pressure can be used than on, say, a Coti or other finishers, thus speeding things up considerably. This is what I was trying to achieve, and both edges "seem" to confirm that it worked. I'm also considering switching to oil in the theory that the extra cushion might allow for a hair more pressure, as I've seen on a couple of arkie honing videos.

For now, these are all just theories. I'd love some input into them from you experienced users re technique and being "done."

As I shaved this morning, I'll need to sprout some hair again before doing the real test.

Thanks in advance-Aaron

---

They will still feel slick when finishing, unless you're using a lubricant that doesn't make them so. Keep honing razors and your experience will tell you when the razor is ready. In my experience, an arkansas finisher is better used with some pressure for initial strokes, and gradually lighter pressure.

I have been using arks for a long time, before they were said to be OK on razor forums, and still find better experience with oil or a water based oil substitute than dish soap. The stones need something oil-like to float particles out.

I've also found that technique on the stones (X's, back and forth, circles, whatever you want to do) to be almost inconsequential. Just get the razor up to a polish and the stone will just about stop cutting. Ark and washita do that - they remove grooves with a little bit of speed and then nearly stop.

Last comment - arkanasas stones love stropping - I think due to shallow grooves or nearly no grooves, the foil is longer and thinner and less broken. A vintage linen and a good smooth leather will reward you with an excellent edge.

I have become a daily shaver only buying few razors and using only one or two of them. I know it's fun to hone, but I only do it about once every 200 shaves (either with an idwall or a dan's black ark - if you closed your eyes, you wouldn't be able to tell a difference in the hone or the shave if the idwall is a good one). A good linen and a smooth hard broken in leather will make it so that you have to hone very little. Eventually, you want to preserve the last tiny slice of edge that's on the razor and not hone it all the way off - if you have a good linen and leather. The edge will remain smoother and sharper - no bite - the stone keeps the geometry of the bevel in check rather than creating the edge each time.

“I have doubts though, it was the cheap WoodCraft CrOx they explicitly warn us razor users not to use for our blades.”

Well, that is what “those” compounds are designed for, polishing.

They contain abrasives, that cut and polish hard materials, but when used on a razor edge, they leave a rough/harsh edge. The grit is unknown as to what it is and the grit size.

Try some good metal polish for even a higher polish on the stone, it can be used as a “slurry” to burnish and buff on a wheel after.

I have stropped on metal polish, and it will remove all visible stria. Simply joint the edge straight, then add a layer of tape and lay on a micro bevel with a few laps.

It is also a great way to experiment, and lay a new stria pattern on a flat, meeting bevel with no stria for comparing stone finish.

Are we talking about the "microfine" honing stick? That's the one that all of the controversy has been about for ten years or so, but the biggest issue with it isn't the aluminum oxide in it, it's the fact that it's wax and there's no great reason to have heavy wax on a strop.

Every time I've ever used that compound on tools, it has improved the edges from all of the synthetic stones I've tried (never tried the gok with tools, it's a waste of time, but I did use a shapton 15k pro and a SP 13k for a little while, and the microfine compound on MDF led to a finer edge - cleaner paring). It did lead to a little bit of spiderwebbing on the backs of tools (due to stray particles), but it would do the same thing on a razor (and did for me) - spider web the bevel a little bit, but it certainly didn't contribute to a rough edge in my experience. Clumps of it could, though.

If someone has a dull feeling edge after using the microfine sticks, or the veritas compound (as some people call it), I doubt it's usually that stick.

Yup, polishing compounds and metal polish works great on tools, and knives, especially wood working tools, where a micro serrated edge helps cutting wood fibers. I too have tried or still use most of the Micro Fine compounds on the market.

But on a razor edge, it leaves a harsh edge, especially if pressure is used with a hard substrate. I too use a MDF strop for wood working tools with polishing compounds.

A lot of the complaints a few years ago, were at the height of the Balsa wood strop craze, and with balsa, I do agree pressure and possibly inherent grit in the wood contributed to the harsh edge.

But it’s not like it will “ruin” a razor, some light finish honing can straighten a razor edge right up, easily. Try the Jantz Pink Scratchless for a keen wood working or knife edge on MDF or a cardboard strop.

Probably some combo of Ferrous Oxide and Aluminum, whatever it is, it leaves a smoking buffer finish, on a razor after Green Stainless compound. It also works very well on scales, Plastic, Celluloid, and Horn.

What I'm saying is that I've never had a problem with the microfine compound and a razor. I'm no longer a compound junkie for anything, and find autosol more appropriate for woodworking (it's quite coarse - 3 micron or so).

But I never had an issue with the razor on the microfine compound. I think this is the case of a lot of indians blaming the arrow when the arrow is probably fine.

I have some razors coming. I will make it a point to try the microfine compound again. Certainly there is the issue of the bevel angle on tools being 10 degrees different (a shapton can microfracture a razor, but won't do it to tools), but I'm curious as to whether the mf compound became an issue after someone didn't like spider webbing, or because someone didn't like the shave that it provided.

I'll take a couple of pictures of the edges, too, vs. regular chrome ox. I'm assuming that I'll find a couple of tiny chips from stray particles as well as some random scratches, but an edge overall that's at least as good as natural stones that people rave about (in terms of uniformity).

Cutting the wax with a little bit of oil has always solved my issues with any buffing sticks, except for the ones that have truly coarse abrasive in them.

I'm sure that the al-ox is in the microfine sticks because people would complain about it being too slow if it was crox only (for tools, not for razors). This is a big debate over on some woodworking forums because there is a reviewer who does a lot of reviews for Lee Valley in exchange for tools, and people are always looking to burn him because they don't like it if he finds anything positive about something he's gotten. The al-ox laden abrasives are a lot more practical for woodworking than is pure crox, but it doesn't stop haters from chasing certain people around. Even though they improve an edge that comes off of a stone (often needlessly improving an edge that will get blasted off in less than a dovetail or three passes of a plane).

I am now in a different crowd than most, rarely obtaining razors (as opposed to someone who hones for pay, or someone flipping razors), and I like to preserve the very razor edge from linen and leather and keep the bevel in check rather than honing the whole thing off and going with an abrasive to clean up the stria from the last stone. I always considered the edges from all of the powders to be a bit rough unless they were stropped - even .09 micron iron oxide leaves a brash edge. I still have a green croxed strop that has only seen graded powder, and will use it as that, clean it off and then try the stick. Since I'm not selling services or razors, I'm not afraid of the cosmetic issue (which would be an issue if I were honing a razor for someone, just as people paying for professional hand-sharpening on expensive knives expect the edges to be both serviceable and cosmetically perfect - as they should).

Well, I wasn't saying that the green wax compound degraded the edge. Far from it. It was just a harsh/biting edge that I disliked shaving with. Far sharper than the Norton 8K, but not as comfortable as the green CrOx spray that I picked up from SRD. And that's kind of immaterial because with a few shaves and passes on just linen and leather the razor came out smooth as you'd please. As you said above Dave, a bit of good stropping with linen and leather does wonders to make a comfortable edge.

I'd still steer people toward the SRD spray, Maggard's, or a graded paste intended for stropping razors over the Micro-Fine wax stick, but that isn't me implying that it degrades an edge. Just that other options are more comfortable out the gate without having to spend 3 to 5 shaves letting an edge 'break in' so to speak.

But, my point in the post above was that I doubt there's any residual paste left on the hone because I don't get that same harsh biting edge, even after the several hundred laps I ordinarily end up doing on those stones to finish an edge. Just feels like a well broken in Arkie.

As for my own stropping, the vast majority of it is done on linen and leather. SRD's premium fabric specifically in the case of the linen, maybe some day I'll find some vintage material to pair with the buffalo hide. I have a few strops pasted with SRD .5 CrOx, some of Ken's .25 CBN, and .1 FeOx but that's all used on one razor as kind of an experiment. By and large I'm finding myself on the same page, the edges are serviceable sure but too brash for my taste.

I'm slowly approaching that phase where the experiments are slowing down and most of my blades are in maintenance mode. Linen and leather until the stones are needed. Which I suppose is a good sign, even if it is a little boring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marshal

Well, I wasn't saying that the green wax compound degraded the edge. Far from it. It was just a harsh/biting edge that I disliked shaving with. Far sharper than the Norton 8K, but not as comfortable as the green CrOx spray that I picked up from SRD. And that's kind of immaterial because with a few shaves and passes on just linen and leather the razor came out smooth as you'd please. As you said above Dave, a bit of good stropping with linen and leather does wonders to make a comfortable edge.

I'd still steer people toward the SRD spray, Maggard's, or a graded paste intended for stropping razors over the Micro-Fine wax stick, but that isn't me implying that it degrades an edge. Just that other options are more comfortable out the gate without having to spend 3 to 5 shaves letting an edge 'break in' so to speak.

But, my point in the post above was that I doubt there's any residual paste left on the hone because I don't get that same harsh biting edge, even after the several hundred laps I ordinarily end up doing on those stones to finish an edge. Just feels like a well broken in Arkie.

As for my own stropping, the vast majority of it is done on linen and leather. SRD's premium fabric specifically in the case of the linen, maybe some day I'll find some vintage material to pair with the buffalo hide. I have a few strops pasted with SRD .5 CrOx, some of Ken's .25 CBN, and .1 FeOx but that's all used on one razor as kind of an experiment. By and large I'm finding myself on the same page, the edges are serviceable sure but too brash for my taste.

I'm slowly approaching that phase where the experiments are slowing down and most of my blades are in maintenance mode. Linen and leather until the stones are needed. Which I suppose is a good sign, even if it is a little boring.

---

Thanks for the clarification, Marshal. I wasn't singling you out, I just haven't been on here in a while. I remember the first go-around with the green stuff a long time ago when someone got the MSDS for the stuff after (can't remember the reason, maybe it was spiderwebbing?) many folks had used the sticks for a long time with good results (something that I think would still happen if it was necessary, but in the age of actual graded pigments with no wax in them, it's not -the pigments are so cheap that I've got bags that I never finished using and have divvied off bits of each bag to send to people who want to experiment with them). Almost overnight, folks who had been happy with the green stuff suddenly weren't because they read they shouldn't be. It spread to the woodworking boards, which is actually how I got introduced to SRP.

I agree about it making a brash edge, though, but brash because it's sharp, and not because it's full of damage like you'd get if you used a contaminated strop. I think they just didn't have that tight of control over the abrasive in the wax stick, and the result is a large particle here or there. There have been plenty of follow-on questions on the woodworking boards about "why don't I get a mirror polish?" when there is tiny spider webbing, and that goes down strange avenues, too, because the green microfine edge is far finer than is needed in woodworking - which itself does damage to the edges very quickly.

I find the preserved edge more regular/consistent and durable. The blinding edge that comes off of iron oxide is interesting, but very transient, and you become an addict of going back to the iron oxide, which means it needs to be kept dead clean (the strop, etc) and it starts to eat time that could be used elsewhere. And it doesn't have that ability that a linen edge has to get you as close as you want without being harsh.

Glad to hear you're using the arks and liking them, by the way. I think it's closer to what people did 100 years ago when they were just trying to get a good shave and the only bombarding they got was advertisements from time to time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaveW

Glad to hear you're using the arks and liking them, by the way. I think it's closer to what people did 100 years ago when they were just trying to get a good shave and the only bombarding they got was advertisements from time to time.

---

Yep, funny how that works. I started learning to hone knives years ago with a set of Arkansas stones - 4" x 1.5" in Soft, Medium, and Black. When I got into straight razors someone convinced me that I had to have a synthetic set. 20 hones later I'm wondering why I didn't just buy some 8x3 Arkansas bench stones and be happy. Well, it's been an interesting little rabbit hole to go down, I've learned a lot and still have fun playing with the rock collection when time permits. Arks are still the favorite of the bunch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marshal

Yep, funny how that works. I started learning to hone knives years ago with a set of Arkansas stones - 4" x 1.5" in Soft, Medium, and Black. When I got into straight razors someone convinced me that I had to have a synthetic set. 20 hones later I'm wondering why I didn't just buy some 8x3 Arkansas bench stones and be happy. Well, it's been an interesting little rabbit hole to go down, I've learned a lot and still have fun playing with the rock collection when time permits. Arks are still the favorite of the bunch.

---

Interesting conversation about pastes vs. Arks, and the evolution on the internet forums re CrOx and the various grades. I remember a lot of threads about that, when the guy (can't remember his handle) got the MSDS or other specs.

Anyway, I am also trying to get away from pastes (only ever really used the CrOx on linen) in favor of "pure" natural edges and good stropping. I've only been at the Arkie thing hardcore for a few weeks, but I've got that Best 8X3" SB slicker than owl s*!t on a bowling ball with just a little spritz of WD-40 evenly spread before each session. Honestly, though I'm getting very sharp, smooth edges, I don't feel I'm close to maxing it out. It can only get more burnished, and I feel its capabilities probably exceed my patience and dedication to find them, but I'm enjoying trying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaveW

In my experience, an arkansas finisher is better used with some pressure for initial strokes, and gradually lighter pressure.

I have been using arks for a long time, before they were said to be OK on razor forums, and still find better experience with oil or a water based oil substitute than dish soap. The stones need something oil-like to float particles out.

I've also found that technique on the stones (X's, back and forth, circles, whatever you want to do) to be almost inconsequential. Just get the razor up to a polish and the stone will just about stop cutting. Ark and washita do that - they remove grooves with a little bit of speed and then nearly stop.

---

+1 Glad to see you back Dave!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steel

+1 Glad to see you back Dave!

---

Thanks. I had a reaction to a blood pressure medication early this year and was almost lights out. Still trying to get the lights back on completely, but getting closer.

Lost all interest in things for a while and was dangerously close to becoming one of those people who just has one or two razors and shaves with them for a couple of decades and that's it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

Interesting conversation about pastes vs. Arks, and the evolution on the internet forums re CrOx and the various grades. I remember a lot of threads about that, when the guy (can't remember his handle) got the MSDS or other specs.

Anyway, I am also trying to get away from pastes (only ever really used the CrOx on linen) in favor of "pure" natural edges and good stropping. I've only been at the Arkie thing hardcore for a few weeks, but I've got that Best 8X3" SB slicker than owl s*!t on a bowling ball with just a little spritz of WD-40 evenly spread before each session. Honestly, though I'm getting very sharp, smooth edges, I don't feel I'm close to maxing it out. It can only get more burnished, and I feel its capabilities probably exceed my patience and dedication to find them, but I'm enjoying trying.

---

Keep at it. It just sort of happens - between the razor edge acclimating to the stone, and you and the stone acclimating to each other.

If you don't have a vintage linen yet, I'd advise getting one (look for something unused on ebay that is old, clean, unused and has the words "silk finish" on it somewhere). A good linen eliminated my desire to do frequent honing. The ark is a great supplement to the linen because it doesn't blast the bevel and edge off all at once - it makes it easy to preserve what you've been working up with the line and leather.