Jnats, Fake Stamps and Soft Stones

I have been out of buying stones for a while, but in the last couple of days, I've bought about 15 from japan. I see on the yahoo auction site over there, it's pretty common to have poorly applied stamps and call a stone a maruka. They don't sell for that much. I knew from previous experience that the use of the stamps had loosened even among reputable dealers.

It has gotten to the point now, when I look around, that people are not just claiming stones to be Maruka stamped, but to be Hatanaka stones, too, which is a new level.

I figured I'd get a bunch of stones from japan and distribute them at cost, whatever they turn out to be, and maybe keep one or two (i have a soft spot for suita that are fast cutting - they're sort of the washita of the east, which I know won't excite shavers).

When I went back out to ebay, I am surprised at the brashness of the stamp use. Really overt, and often with stones that I'm sure would never have gotten a maruka stamp due to lack of uniformity, common stone aspects (you know what i'm talking about if you've been buying a while - you can spot a stone that may have the characteristics to have been stamped in the old days - they are a cut above and uncommon).

It just sort of makes you look at the listings and say "wow, things have gone this far down. That's a shame".

On the bright side, before I went over there (to the japanese site) and bought a bunch of stuff, I remember in the past people talked about relatively small maruka marked stones that had a cosmetic flaw or three being a $3500 stone. I don't think anyone touting that ever paid a fifth of that for their stones. At least the dilution of the stamping will maybe knock some of that off, as in this community (of shavers), if someone talks long enough about a stone being $3500, a beginner with some money will eventually get taken. I don't care for that kind of thing. It isn't in keeping with sharing knowledge and being a community.

Years ago when I started woodworking, there was some truth (this is before Jnats became so popular with beginner knife enthusiasts, etc) in stones being sold. Strong stones with good action and reasonable hardness brought money. Soft sloppy stones didn't. They're junk. These days, I see a lot of those junk stones being sold for premium prices and I guess you could call that market making, but I call it suckering. You can buy a soft two pound stone on japan yahoo with no mine mark for $60. When I see things like very soft hiderayama stones (hiderayama having been lowly regarded before due to the low cutting power of the stones, and the boring common colors) being gussied up with cashew lacquer and stamps and sold for many hundreds of dollars, it makes me a little queasy.

Thats why id only buy from a reputable dealer, Id rather spend a few more sovereigns and not buy a paper weight.

Well, there's two parts to that:
1) if someone sells you a good stone with a maruka stamp on it for $200, you can't really complain too much (as long as they're not trying to claim obviously fake stamps are vintage stamps). Assume the stamp is fake, anyway. It is some of the reputable dealers stamping the stones, too.
2) the dealers are the ones who have created the idea that common soft stones are somehow valuable due to the softness (and the ease that they make a kasumi finish). That's a shame, but I'm not a buyer of those types of stones, anyway.

i once bought a hideriyama tomae stone from a guy who lied to me. I was a beginner. It was 8x3 inches and about 1 1/2 thick. At the time, those stones had almost no value. He told me it was a hard stone and fine, and if I recall he said something stupid like "it's a strong cutter that will help you put food on the table for your family". When I got it, it was soft and not that fine. So soft you couldn't see iron filings in the swarf even if sharpening something that was mostly wrought iron jigane. Weak cutter, too (as hideriyama is noted for). I ate it and set it aside after a month, but I was unhappy that he charged me $165 for it. These days, that's a bargain. I see stones of that type selling all over the place for double that. I still think it was underhanded for the guy to lie. I sold it on ebay as a prefinisher only suitable for knives and took some loss. Oh well.

The other issue on the dealer side of things is that generally, you're stuck with a stone that cost about twice what it would be on the open market in japan (which often means you'll take a great loss if you re-sell later - I've been down that road), sometimes more. I see a grayish hatanaka stone (stamped, but used and with the original box) on yahoo japan for $550. It's about type 30 size or a little smaller - surprisingly strange shape for hatanaka, but perhaps because it's more modern. I'd hate to see what a dealer would ask for it, but wouldn't be surprised no matter what it was. I am tempted to buy it, but if it ends up being not that great of a stone (looks like a modern offering), I'd be under water on it.

As far as the things that are useful and relatively uncommon, shiro suita with black renge or large suita with tons of red renge and proof in pictures of strong cutting power still brings well in japan. But half of what it's sold for here. Common stones like large atagoyama (really really large) are $250 there, and so are the 30 type tomae that are sold here with an imanishi label for $400-$500.

I suppose I don't really have that firm of thoughts about what someone should do, dealers can certainly provide value other ways (if you ask a dealer to go through their stones and find one that is on the side of performance but with cosmetic flaws, you can still get a lot of use value for your money, and at the same time, they can unload a stone that would maybe be hard to unload).

Thats the difference between dealer and reputable dealer.
A dealer is there just to make money and will do anything to make a buck. Fake stamps and soft stones are all good if they can off load them. A reputable dealer is someone like alex from thejapanstone, they have a passion for tennen toshi and can guide someone like myself who dosent have the knowledge to buy a hone that can put a great edge to a razor. Essentially you are paying a premium for their expertise.

I agree. Alex is generally premium price, but the stuff that's super premium is relatively uncommon and you can make requests. Most of the moderately priced stuff is happily unstamped (I see that as a good thing).

Both times I chose to go for unmarked stuff from Alex and asked for performance per dollar over all else, and I got that.

Alex brings his own stuff in. The situations that seem to be worst for the buyer are where there is a distributor in japan and then there is a second distributor who buys the stones. There's two mark-ups, and you get things like ohira 30 type tomae stones for $400-$500 (there are two unsold on the japanese auction site for about 1/3rd of that). They got me early on with those, and I see some unscrupulous sellers on japan still trying to list 30-type stones from that for $500.

I shouldn't say it's just two level distributors, there was also an individual who targeted the tool community and then sold off her stock to a japanese tool dealer who proceeded to sell it off at the same price.

It may be crabby friday for me!! I think I'm going to go buy one of the 30 type tomae stone for $150 and treat this like a stock situation. If I bought a share of stock for $400 and the price level dropped to $150, I'd be looking to buy more shares at $150 to make myself feel better about it!

Unfortunately theres the problem, you spend $150 on a tomae 30 hone and you take a chance or spend $82 on a nani 12k and get a known fine finisher! ;)

I don't know squat about Japanese Stones but what I do know is all the best ones were mined long ago and the supply of freshly mined quality stones has dwindled.

The folks there know Westerners are chomping at the bit to buy these stones so stretching the truth to varying degrees has been the rule for years there.

The bottom line is if you don't want to be taken for a ride in a rickshaw you have two choices, either learn about these stones which is a large undertaking or buy from a dealer with a rock (no pun) solid reputation.

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Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

Thats the difference between dealer and reputable dealer.
A dealer is there just to make money and will do anything to make a buck. Fake stamps and soft stones are all good if they can off load them. A reputable dealer is someone like alex from thejapanstone, they have a passion for tennen toshi and can guide someone like myself who dosent have the knowledge to buy a hone that can put a great edge to a razor. Essentially you are paying a premium for their expertise.

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We have no way of knowing if what we consider reputable dealers get vintage and authentic stones either.
I see a lot of freshly stamped stones being sold all over the place. The reason I say that is because certain stamps sell the stones for a lot of money.
Getting a quality stone does not have to cost an arm and a leg, even if it is a Nakayama.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

The other issue on the dealer side of things is that generally, you're stuck with a stone that cost about twice what it would be on the open market in japan (which often means you'll take a great loss if you re-sell later - I've been down that road), sometimes more. I see a grayish hatanaka stone (stamped, but used and with the original box) on yahoo japan for $550. It's about type 30 size or a little smaller - surprisingly strange shape for hatanaka, but perhaps because it's more modern. I'd hate to see what a dealer would ask for it, but wouldn't be surprised no matter what it was. I am tempted to buy it, but if it ends up being not that great of a stone (looks like a modern offering), I'd be under water on it.

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Hatanaka, usually are perfect rectangular shaped stones, I suspect that sometimes imperfect stones did make the cut based on performance.
Here are my two which I am certain are authentic, the asagi is perfect with not a single line or chip on it.

Attachment 267282Attachment 267277Attachment 267278Attachment 267279Attachment 267280Attachment 267281

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As far as the things that are useful and relatively uncommon, shiro suita with black renge or large suita with tons of red renge and proof in pictures of strong cutting power still brings well in japan. But half of what it's sold for here. Common stones like large atagoyama (really really large) are $250 there, and so are the 30 type tomae that are sold here with an imanishi label for $400-$500.

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The issue with Suita stones in Japan now is that they are pretty hard. That makes the prices lower than what they would be if the stones were softer. That is good for us if we buy direct, vendors still tend to up the price too much IMO.

I think a safe bet is to shop estate sale of barber equipment, I got a flawless Maruka (in the pics only the contours of the stamp were barely showing so i took the gamble) and got a high end stone for under $100 bucks.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

We have no way of knowing if what we consider reputable dealers get vintage and authentic stones either.
I see a lot of freshly stamped stones being sold all over the place. The reason I say that is because certain stamps sell the stones for a lot of money.
Getting a quality stone does not have to cost an arm and a leg, even if it is a Nakayama.

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I completely agree, and have experienced this. Be careful whom you trust when money is involved.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

Hatanaka, usually are perfect rectangular shaped stones, I suspect that sometimes imperfect stones did make the cut based on performance.
Here are my two which I am certain are authentic, the asagi is perfect with not a single line or chip on it.

Attachment 267282Attachment 267277Attachment 267278Attachment 267279Attachment 267280Attachment 267281


The issue with Suita stones in Japan now is that they are pretty hard. That makes the prices lower than what they would be if the stones were softer. That is good for us if we buy direct, vendors still tend to up the price too much IMO.

I think a safe bet is to shop estate sale of barber equipment, I got a flawless Maruka (in the pics only the contours of the stamp were barely showing so i took the gamble) and got a high end stone for under $100 bucks.

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Those are beautiful stones. the top one may be irregular, but it's clear to someone who has seen a moderate number of stones that it's not a common stone. The one that I saw was a little more misshapen than that, but I could guess by looking at it that it may be genuine hatanaka (it has the box, but you never know what someone can do to end up with a box containing a stone that's not hatanaka).

I 100% agree that there is no need to spend a lot of money for a good performer. I like kiita stones, but someone on a budget should look elsewhere as few of them are really excellent despite many being pretty.

I agree on the stamps, too, but that's why I said above if they dilute the market enough, we'll end up looking closely at the stone instead of just trusting the stamp. I think I wouldn't mind so much if someone sold me a 30 size stone for $250 with a fake stamp if it was a great stone. Same if it was $125 and 800 grams or so and flat and good proportioned.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

I 100% agree that there is no need to spend a lot of money for a good performer. I like kiita stones, but someone on a budget should look elsewhere as few of them are really excellent despite many being pretty.

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IMHO the best bang for the buck are Wakasa stones. They are not expensive and very consistent as finishers for razors. To me the feel on a Wakasa is as close to a Nakayama feel as it gets.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I completely agree, and have experienced this. Be careful whom you trust when money is involved.

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Ditto that. Even trusted dealers can sell stuff that's not that great. The wholesalers pushing some of these things along may be fairly respected, too. But they are in business.

That's why I've got a preference of getting an ugly stone out of a dealer if one wants to. There won't be an argument about a stamp being real or not real, it won't be there, but the stone will be more reasonably priced and if the dealer is honest, it will do wonders for a razor.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

IMHO the best bang for the buck are Wakasa stones. They are not expensive and very consistent as finishers for razors. To me the feel on a Wakasa is as close to a Nakayama feel as it gets.

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I don't have any wakasa stones, and have been using an idwall on razors lately (because I hone extremely rarely), but I agree with the sentiment. Don't care about the name, and the "it" mines that have a lot of history often command a premium when others may do the same thing. Sort of like solingen knives cost a premium over something like henckels spanish international (which they may not make any longer). The spanish made knives that I've used cost a lot less and are at least as good. Or for that matter, a tojiro DP knife from an honest dealer is the same or less and a far better knife unless someone is just adamant that they must be able to steel a knife often.

It is true that the best stones were mined long ago. That doesn't mean that they aren't still out there, both used and 'new'. There is still a lot of stone in storage from mining operations that ceased long ago, in old dealer stock, and as used stones.

Tool and knife hones are softer and can easily be consumed by an active woodworker. But razor hones are hard, pressure is light, and razor hones mined decades ago are still around, though some are worn down quite a bit, but still have decades more left in them, especially if you only use it for final finishing.

So it is not true that all the best stones mined long ago are all gone, especially where razor hones are concerned. High grade tool hones like suita will be getting progressively more expensive, as will softer knife and small tool stones especially yellow kiita which is already high. I've watched a very nice sunashi suita priced at $4k not sell. But $2k for a fine suita is just a business expense if you are Japanese carpenter restoring temples and tea rooms.

We razors guys are lucky. A fine jnat razor hone is hard, and even if it is only 1/2" thick and you're Lynn, you're not likely to wear it out in a lifetime if you only use it with tomo to finish. If you're worried about that, buy 2. Lol.

Cheers, Steve

Gentlemen, topics like these mean nothing without pictures. Thanks Stefan, by the way...

Here's one, advertised on an auction right now as top tier whetstone. I tried to keep only the surface of the stone in the picture to avoid references to a live auction. Not giving you any keywords either. It's about 140mm in length, 500g. It is already twice as high as I would pay for it, sadly.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e2333a670a.png

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Originally Posted by Srdjan

Gentlemen, topics like these mean nothing without pictures. Thanks Stefan, by the way...

Here's one, advertised on an auction right now as top tier whetstone. I tried to keep only the surface of the stone in the picture to avoid references to a live auction. Not giving you any keywords either. It's about 140mm in length, 500g. It is already twice as high as I would pay for it, sadly.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e2333a670a.png

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It is not even a Hatanaka, the stamp is generic. Since Hatanaka San has passed there is no heir to the Hatanaka stamp, it is free for all right now and lots of stones have been stamped with fake stamps. To me a stone with so many lines is not worth the money at all.

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Originally Posted by Srdjan

Gentlemen, topics like these mean nothing without pictures. Thanks Stefan, by the way...

Here's one, advertised on an auction right now as top tier whetstone. I tried to keep only the surface of the stone in the picture to avoid references to a live auction. Not giving you any keywords either. It's about 140mm in length, 500g. It is already twice as high as I would pay for it, sadly.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e2333a670a.png

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Where would you get a stone at half that price? A tomo can cost half that. Now this stone has several issues of why I would not buy, but the stamp is more advertising and true stone quality won't be known without trial. Even at the price it is if the sharpening quality is there and this was cut to say 100g tomos at .35 a gram one could more than double their money.

I wonder if the wholesaler just has an old stock and a catalog of what is there and stamps stones based on that. Otherwise why wouldn't every stone be stamped for maximum profit.

The truth is that we are living and breathing and buying these stones which were mined towards the end of an era that began hundreds of years ago, and we here on this and other forums exist in consumer driven economy of English speaking consumers spending plentiful Dollars and Euros and have a track record of driving and encouraging export markets to suit our whims and hobbies. The economic source of these stones is in a free fall situation, was regulated on handshakes and honor and now is peopled in Japan at the retail by week-end stone sellers on Yahoo and E-bay and a handful of actual shop owners mostly in Tokyo and Kyoto. The part time internet sellers are trying their best to provide the stones we want while the old fashioned tradition family run shop owners are only holding on in some cases because the own the building they operate
from. Store owners have no joyful way to replenish their stock and the internet sellers scramble around at flea markets looking for quick turnover.

I reported about 10 years ago after I visited the storage building and workshops of the Ohira and the Hitomi stone companies that I found large amounts of raw stones on pallets in storage. We know that Ishihara-san of Ohira Mine Co. has died and that his son in law is liquidating the stone assets, Hatanaka-san has also passed and their stock was liquidated and I just visited Hitomi-san (the current president of the Kyoto Miners Association) two months ago and I found that his stone locker has, I would estimate, only about 20% is left of what I saw 10 years ago.

These deep sources of harvested and stored stone are being depleted year by year and this will be the end of the Honyama stone from those famous mines of Naurtaki, Nakayama, Okudo, Oozuku/Ohzuku, Ozake and Shobudani. All of these mines sites were scraped clean and are unstable for any further development. The thousands of stones sold on with internet each month is biting into those old hoards like never before. We in the west crave the finest and flawless stones but obviously if the price is right will take a chance here or there.

With the passing of Hatanaka-san the traditional standards of grading stones from the top down is weakening. Here is an old link I still have that shows the top grade. At $31,000 this standard may have only been a wish for Hatanaka-san, but I suspect that he might have actually sold that stone. The Link Code looks weird but it works.

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Those types of prices, and that type of stone are a thing of the past, what we live in now is a time of transition regarding price and quality. Few fellows 20 years from now will actually have a chance to hold let alone test or try these old school top rated stones. The Maruoyama era is next, their stones look very good and the sizes are impressive with excellent conformation. A family run business they are out there at the Kezuroukai and other shows. I have used their stones but truthfully I find them in general to be slow cutting.

Fewer and fewer carpenters hand sharpen their tools with natural stones now, and in the past they were the 95% of the users of naturals in the old days. Steve mentioned that hard stones for razors are still in the market place, that maybe true and lucky for us, but the Mikawa source is about done too. With level 5+++ razor stones a tomo nagura and a diamond plate are a must. A super Nakayama level 5+++ razor hone with a Maruoyama tomo nagura is a slow cutting affair. Lots of gloom and doom from my end in these words, I still jump out of bed in the morning though and I love the stones. So please take the above as a bit of reporting.

Alex

Not much different from, Real Estate, Vintage Automobiles & Motorcycles, Denim, American Antiques and many other things, except some go back to Japan or other countries, for crazy cash.

The difference now, is the internet has exposed all markets to massive numbers of buyers. The more buyers, the higher the price, the last crazy price becomes, the new normal.

Supply and demand…

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Originally Posted by rideon66

Where would you get a stone at half that price? A tomo can cost half that. Now this stone has several issues of why I would not buy, but the stamp is more advertising and true stone quality won't be known without trial. Even at the price it is if the sharpening quality is there and this was cut to say 100g tomos at .35 a gram one could more than double their money.

I wonder if the wholesaler just has an old stock and a catalog of what is there and stamps stones based on that. Otherwise why wouldn't every stone be stamped for maximum profit.

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Let me rephrase: I bought better looking stones for half that price, which performed a task very well. Some finished a razor, some finished a knife. NB: I am one of those who will often take a chance, take the stone first and then find it purpose.. I feel this is the right point to say this. ;)

As for cutting into that stone, I would never do it - Too many lines in it and if you rubbed that on your base stone, it would scratch it very easily. To get rid of the lines in the hypothetical nagura, you would end up wasting at least half of the stone, and end up with very small nagura. Not that they wouldn't work, but they certainly wouldn't be worth a lot.

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Originally Posted by Srdjan

Let me rephrase: I bought better looking stones for half that price, which performed a task very well. Some finished a razor, some finished a knife. NB: I am one of those who will often take a chance, take the stone first and then find it purpose.. I feel this is the right point to say this. ;)

As for cutting into that stone, I would never do it - Too many lines in it and if you rubbed that on your base stone, it would scratch it very easily. To get rid of the lines in the hypothetical nagura, you would end up wasting at least half of the stone, and end up with very small nagura. Not that they wouldn't work, but they certainly wouldn't be worth a lot.

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That stone, if attempted to cut for tomonagura, will probably easily shatter along those lines and the pieces will not be nice and chunky to be comfortable to use.
If I had the option I would only go for stones with no lines at all, but they are less common. If one does not want to take chances, they should buy tested stones from a vendor. This way regardless of provenance one would get a proven performer.

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Originally Posted by rideon66

Where would you get a stone at half that price? A tomo can cost half that. Now this stone has several issues of why I would not buy, but the stamp is more advertising and true stone quality won't be known without trial. Even at the price it is if the sharpening quality is there and this was cut to say 100g tomos at .35 a gram one could more than double their money.

I wonder if the wholesaler just has an old stock and a catalog of what is there and stamps stones based on that. Otherwise why wouldn't every stone be stamped for maximum profit.

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Any reasonable soft stone makes a decent tomonagura. Most of us expect something a little different from the tomo and the base stone. Harder for the base and softer for the tomo. I would agree with srdjan's comments. I don't mind lines on suita where they're relatively common, as long as they're not toxic (I think I would tolerate toxic lines on a 24 sized suita if the stone was a strong cutter, the particles could be dug out and someone wanted $100 for it. Those things don't usually happen, though - the sellers talk down the fact that there are toxic lines as if it's just a trivial thing and the stone should be nearly as expensive as one that's uniform.

A 500 gram stone like the one above, I'd expect to get for about $30. I'm sure some tomonagura are less than that, but I'd rather buy a stone on the soft side and just make 4 of them for 30 dollars. Tomonagura are, to me, sort of like diaper bags for a diaper genie. You can figure out a way to use the thing for a fifth or tenth of the cost if you avoid buying pre-made bags.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

That stone, if attempted to cut for tomonagura, will probably easily shatter along those lines and the pieces will not be nice and chunky to be comfortable to use.
If I had the option I would only go for stones with no lines at all, but they are less common. If one does not want to take chances, they should buy tested stones from a vendor. This way regardless of provenance one would get a proven performer.

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And if you're going to take chances, which is fine (it gives you junk stones to cut to tomonagura, etc, or put in the kitchen or give to someone else to use), you expect the chances to occur at very low price. At least, I do.

I will pay a fair amount of money for a stone that could be a tool or razor stone, but the seller isn't sure (as long as they don't look like a loafy sloppy stone that can't hold particles in place no matter what). But, I know that a decent stone can be sold to someone wanting to get a taste for tools where they expect the finisher to be fine, but not particularly fast if used in a progression.

I do little with japanese tools except for chisels (which means I'm not sharpening a giant kanna bevel just with stones and no grinder), but I do a lot with vintage carbon steel, and if you're going to use waterstones, natural is the way to go for a finisher with those tools. For beginners, maybe not, because beginners always want to put something in a guide and pull strokes, but once you have touch and ditch those guides, a synthetic is miles ahead.

(by reasonable, I mean I will spend $150 on a nice 1.25 to 1.5 kg stone that doesn't have visible flaws. Tool users usually have something to flatten stones, so if a stone comes that needs slurry to wake it up, it is easily to notify regarding that if you're selling the stone, and someone who likes to do that will show up. I like some of each. Those slow stones can finish an edge on a tool very well, even though they're miserable to use with a knife. The fast ones that cut and just barely release something are a treat, too, but sometimes half cut and half burnish is just what you want).

I know you guys are talking Jnats but I recently got screwed, for want of a better word, on a Thuringian from a reputable dealer.

Now I will be a lot more careful and not blindly trust reputable dealers.

The regulars on this forum are about the only people I would trust when it comes to buying.

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Originally Posted by Srdjan

Let me rephrase: I bought better looking stones for half that price, which performed a task very well. Some finished a razor, some finished a knife. NB: I am one of those who will often take a chance, take the stone first and then find it purpose.. I feel this is the right point to say this. ;)

As for cutting into that stone, I would never do it - Too many lines in it and if you rubbed that on your base stone, it would scratch it very easily. To get rid of the lines in the hypothetical nagura, you would end up wasting at least half of the stone, and end up with very small nagura. Not that they wouldn't work, but they certainly wouldn't be worth a lot.

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This was more pointing out that even tomo cost more than that. I see highly regarded dealers on here selling tomo with fractures for around $100 for a tomo less than 250 grams. I don't cut up stones for tomo either it was just an analogy. That stone has storage issues to that the vendor pointed out so not sure why it is at that price since it will probably jump higher at the end.

I would love to know where to get super cheap high end tomo Nagura if this is true. It is at least $35 for a tomo on almost any site.

The pain is, you have to be in this game for several years before you find out who's who. I could show you a few "reputable" sellers' recent dealings to make your stomache turn... as I'm sure any senior member here could... but we don't do it, because it's none of our business. I like to think the truth has a way of emerging on its own, while gentlemen remain gentleman. And anyway, this is a hobby for me, which I'd like to keep drama-free.

Bottom line is, buy with knowledge and some kind of money-back guarantee, if you want specific stones, and be done with it. Folks like myself, who just like to mess around with rocks, need to evaluate several aspects of these blind purchases: if it's too soft, do I have some other use for it, or know others who may? Do I need 3 more tomo nagura, or do I know people who may like some? What if it's a door stop, do I have the right door to compliment it? Etc.... then put the risk into figures.

Say you gamble 4x for $200, and score once. I mean you score a rock out of this world, that has everything you need (minus the ink). Wasted $600, but if you'd gone and spent $800 on a money-back-guaranteed rock you liked from a good dealer, you're either out $800 and very happy with your new stone, or return the rock and get your cash back... just one simple case scenario. I go with option #1 and I've done well for the most part, but many folks go with option #2.

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Originally Posted by rideon66

This was more pointing out that even tomo cost more than that. I see highly regarded dealers on here selling tomo with fractures for around $100 for a tomo less than 250 grams. I don't cut up stones for tomo either it was just an analogy. That stone has storage issues to that the vendor pointed out so not sure why it is at that price since it will probably jump higher at the end.

I would love to know where to get super cheap high end tomo Nagura if this is true. It is at least $35 for a tomo on almost any site.

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This is not so easy to answer, but there are many pointers in this thread already.

If I were to cut my small Maruka stone into 4 pieces (cca 150g each), it is likely a piece would cost around $100 shipped and I would sell only 3.

If I were to cut an unstamped/gamble stone, or say I have some pieces left, from shaping a stone (which I do often), I would likely give it away free, say if a friend asked nicely.

If it's a very nice unstamped piece, I may offer it for sale, relative to the cost of the stone and its quality.... Or I may include it with a base stone, should I happen to want to sell and see a good match.

How other people form their prices is none of my business. I mean, I buy if I like it, or pass if I don't. They are simply selling to the highest bidder and market sets the price, and I'm cool with that I guess.

Agreed on the Wakasa, I recently got a very hard Wakasa, that has proven to be a nice finisher for me, you can get size and value for Wakasa, where other popularly mined stones of similar ability cost a lot more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JOB15

I know you guys are talking Jnats but I recently got screwed, for want of a better word, on a Thuringian from a reputable dealer.

Now I will be a lot more careful and not blindly trust reputable dealers.

The regulars on this forum are about the only people I would trust when it comes to buying.

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I ate a thuri, too. I think they're not worth the risk because they're not as spectacular as they are said to be. I ate mine because it was a 10x2 yellow green, when I flattened it, it had a stress crack that was stable, but it lost a lot of thickness and then I got about 1/3rd of what I paid for it. It was about as good as a middle of the road japanese stone, maybe not quite - same type of feel but without as much cutting ability. I would pay about $50 for a japanese stone that was as good as a y/g thuri, but I am willing to take a little bit of risk. You could take a dozen risks with random stones that people say they got out of a barber shop. Some percentage of them are bound to be such things.

Early on, they were about $100 (like a 5x2 with a rub stone), new or nearly new with great label. The online razor community has bumped them up, and who knows if that's temporary? If this hobby loses steam as some do (remember people collecting rare disney stuff, scrapbooking, rare baseball cards, stamps, ...?) there is nothing about thuris that makes their attributes that great. And the y/g that I had is of the finest type. The darker ones, I have no clue what people are thinking when they pay hundreds of dollars for them.

Of course, I could be wrong and they could yet reach their peak, but I doubt it's too uncommon for people to get an escher stone, hone with it and say "is that it? Did I just pay $600 for an 'oh well, ok' edge?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobski

Agreed on the Wakasa, I recently got a very hard Wakasa, that has proven to be a nice finisher for me, you can get size and value for Wakasa, where other popularly mined stones of similar ability cost a lot more.

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I sense wakasa prices will be increasing soon!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaveW

I ate a thuri, too. I think they're not worth the risk because they're not as spectacular as they are said to be. I ate mine because it was a 10x2 yellow green, when I flattened it, it had a stress crack that was stable, but it lost a lot of thickness and then I got about 1/3rd of what I paid for it. It was about as good as a middle of the road japanese stone, maybe not quite - same type of feel but without as much cutting ability. I would pay about $50 for a japanese stone that was as good as a y/g thuri, but I am willing to take a little bit of risk. You could take a dozen risks with random stones that people say they got out of a barber shop. Some percentage of them are bound to be such things.

Early on, they were about $100 (like a 5x2 with a rub stone), new or nearly new with great label. The online razor community has bumped them up, and who knows if that's temporary? If this hobby loses steam as some do (remember people collecting rare disney stuff, scrapbooking, rare baseball cards, stamps, ...?) there is nothing about thuris that makes their attributes that great. And the y/g that I had is of the finest type. The darker ones, I have no clue what people are thinking when they pay hundreds of dollars for them.

Of course, I could be wrong and they could yet reach their peak, but I doubt it's too uncommon for people to get an escher stone, hone with it and say "is that it? Did I just pay $600 for an 'oh well, ok' edge?"

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Some Thuris can finish well, but not equally well on all steels. They were very hyped by a member here who was considered a great honer, and he basically was talking them up all the time. As a result the prices went ultra high on eBay, of course there was a business element to all of that.
I personally believe that a good Jnat is as good as it gets for a natural finisher, armed with several different tomonagura it can do almost anything. Still because of the nature of the product, it is not so easy to find the right stone and then the right tomonaguras, it takes some patience and investment.

We are currently really lucky that there is a Suehiro 20k in existance because that stone produces keen and smooth edges when used properly. It also extremely consistent stone over a wide range of steels.

There is one thing that's true. If you take something reasonably good in the land of naturals and it is consistent, it will bring more money. A good chinese stone will do what just about everything else does. A bad one will feel like honing either on a grave stone or a pile of loose fine sand. Those stones don't have to be fast, and it is hard to see the work they're doing because they're black and the slurry blends in.

The thuris (I have honed with three) seem to be consistent, though they do vary, just a fairly narrow range. If you get a bad one, you still shave. If you get a bad jnat, hopefully for cheap, it can have very undesirable characteristics, but pretty much any reasonably dense stone with particles that don't exit - and no toxic parts - you're in business and can match a thuri. Even a soft cnat makes a decent tomonagura if budget is really important. It's ugly looking, but it works.

re: the business basis of the thuris, I guess most of us have been there. When you have something that you paid a lot for, you poo poo and dump (which would be the opposite of the illegal stock strategy of pump and dump - driving the value down before you sell - I have a bad habit of expressing negative opinions even on something I'm holding) or you can be quiet and hope the market will be favorable.

Not to say that there aren't some who spend a wad on a nice y/g and just think the edge is the bees knees, and have no interest in selling it in the future. I just didn't find myself in that group - too much exposure elsewhere first.

The yellow greens honestly get hyped way too much, I would rather have a db or bg any day and be thankful for that hint of extra hardness. They're not my favorite regardless, they score high marks in every department but you can get sharper, smoother, finer elsewhere. I think what made them legendary was relative consistency, EASE OF USE, and the very balanced edge characteristics they give. I would take an old trans ark set up properly or a razor grade charnley 100/100 over a thuri.. Or the nakayama I have... Or a really glassy ultrahard coti

Never saw any color of a thuri that wouldn't put a great shaving edge on a blade. No muss, no fuss. Dream hone for newbies. My favorite YG would be one of the last that I get rid of and I bought all of mine before the prices went nuts.

I personally prefer the crisper edges that arkies provide.

The ease and consistency are the keys to their popularity I think

My vintage thuri turned out to be a low grit muller stone.
It looks really nice though :/

I have a nice B/G now and it performs really well although i'm sure my Nakayama gets the hump when I use it.

Alex is right as always, but for us razor guys, another reason we still have good razor hones around is that they aren't good for much else. They're too hard and usually too slow for knives and tools and frequently too small, and the absolute fineness isn't needed for anything else. A fine sushi knife is probably the closest, but even the best of them don't need a razor hone. As we knife folk say, 'a pot roast never complains'. I like the toothy edge from an Aizu on vegetable knives. I don't know about the precision Japanese woodworking knives, but they may also need a fine stone.

Hard stones also usually don't finish metal well so knife/sword polishers don't want them.

Cheers, Steve

My big problem with the sellers is how they word things with these obviously newer stamped from the wholesaler stones. So a wholesaler feels a stone is of a certain quality and stamps it Maruichi now the seller will imply it was stamped Hatanaka Nakayama when this really maybe a Nakayama, but probably not stamped by Hatanaka, just implying it is that quality. Now as long as the price is not what an original stamped stone would cost I think most that buy these types of stones are buying with caution.

Adding to what Alex has said about the storage of vintage stones, I recall reading of the process of mining the stones back in the day, I think from one of Alex’s blogs.

Where, the miners would bring the stones out from the mine, to sorters at the mouth, who selected the stones most likely to sell and stack them into packs that folks would strap on their backs and schlep down the mountain.

Anything that was too hard or too small, and not worth carrying down the mountain, was tossed over the side into the tailing pile. Remember the majority of hones were dedicated to the tool/knife market, were tradesmen replaced once large stones regularly.

In addition to the hordes of stones, squirreled away there are/were piles of stones at the mine sites, that were once considered unworthy and now commanding prices that would make a razor honer break out a wallet, and make someone pick them out of the pile.

All this and the almost over-night world-wide exposure of the internet and money transfer vehicles like pay pal, have increases the number of buyers, sellers, and inventory.

So, as with most things in this hobby, knowledge is king and let the buyer beware. Do your due diligence.

Personally, I don’t care what the stamp says or if it has one, as long as the stone performs, and I pick it up at a price I am comfortable with. Considering a high grit Shapton or SG sells in the 250 -300 dollar price range, one can buy a very nice stone for that kind of money, for a razor guy, it is a lifetime purchase.