Thread: Jnats, Fake Stamps and Soft Stones

I have been out of buying stones for a while, but in the last couple of days, I've bought about 15 from japan. I see on the yahoo auction site over there, it's pretty common to have poorly applied stamps and call a stone a maruka. They don't sell for that much. I knew from previous experience that the use of the stamps had loosened even among reputable dealers.

It has gotten to the point now, when I look around, that people are not just claiming stones to be Maruka stamped, but to be Hatanaka stones, too, which is a new level.

I figured I'd get a bunch of stones from japan and distribute them at cost, whatever they turn out to be, and maybe keep one or two (i have a soft spot for suita that are fast cutting - they're sort of the washita of the east, which I know won't excite shavers).

When I went back out to ebay, I am surprised at the brashness of the stamp use. Really overt, and often with stones that I'm sure would never have gotten a maruka stamp due to lack of uniformity, common stone aspects (you know what i'm talking about if you've been buying a while - you can spot a stone that may have the characteristics to have been stamped in the old days - they are a cut above and uncommon).

It just sort of makes you look at the listings and say "wow, things have gone this far down. That's a shame".

On the bright side, before I went over there (to the japanese site) and bought a bunch of stuff, I remember in the past people talked about relatively small maruka marked stones that had a cosmetic flaw or three being a $3500 stone. I don't think anyone touting that ever paid a fifth of that for their stones. At least the dilution of the stamping will maybe knock some of that off, as in this community (of shavers), if someone talks long enough about a stone being $3500, a beginner with some money will eventually get taken. I don't care for that kind of thing. It isn't in keeping with sharing knowledge and being a community.

Years ago when I started woodworking, there was some truth (this is before Jnats became so popular with beginner knife enthusiasts, etc) in stones being sold. Strong stones with good action and reasonable hardness brought money. Soft sloppy stones didn't. They're junk. These days, I see a lot of those junk stones being sold for premium prices and I guess you could call that market making, but I call it suckering. You can buy a soft two pound stone on japan yahoo with no mine mark for $60. When I see things like very soft hiderayama stones (hiderayama having been lowly regarded before due to the low cutting power of the stones, and the boring common colors) being gussied up with cashew lacquer and stamps and sold for many hundreds of dollars, it makes me a little queasy.

Thats why id only buy from a reputable dealer, Id rather spend a few more sovereigns and not buy a paper weight.

Well, there's two parts to that:
1) if someone sells you a good stone with a maruka stamp on it for $200, you can't really complain too much (as long as they're not trying to claim obviously fake stamps are vintage stamps). Assume the stamp is fake, anyway. It is some of the reputable dealers stamping the stones, too.
2) the dealers are the ones who have created the idea that common soft stones are somehow valuable due to the softness (and the ease that they make a kasumi finish). That's a shame, but I'm not a buyer of those types of stones, anyway.

i once bought a hideriyama tomae stone from a guy who lied to me. I was a beginner. It was 8x3 inches and about 1 1/2 thick. At the time, those stones had almost no value. He told me it was a hard stone and fine, and if I recall he said something stupid like "it's a strong cutter that will help you put food on the table for your family". When I got it, it was soft and not that fine. So soft you couldn't see iron filings in the swarf even if sharpening something that was mostly wrought iron jigane. Weak cutter, too (as hideriyama is noted for). I ate it and set it aside after a month, but I was unhappy that he charged me $165 for it. These days, that's a bargain. I see stones of that type selling all over the place for double that. I still think it was underhanded for the guy to lie. I sold it on ebay as a prefinisher only suitable for knives and took some loss. Oh well.

The other issue on the dealer side of things is that generally, you're stuck with a stone that cost about twice what it would be on the open market in japan (which often means you'll take a great loss if you re-sell later - I've been down that road), sometimes more. I see a grayish hatanaka stone (stamped, but used and with the original box) on yahoo japan for $550. It's about type 30 size or a little smaller - surprisingly strange shape for hatanaka, but perhaps because it's more modern. I'd hate to see what a dealer would ask for it, but wouldn't be surprised no matter what it was. I am tempted to buy it, but if it ends up being not that great of a stone (looks like a modern offering), I'd be under water on it.

As far as the things that are useful and relatively uncommon, shiro suita with black renge or large suita with tons of red renge and proof in pictures of strong cutting power still brings well in japan. But half of what it's sold for here. Common stones like large atagoyama (really really large) are $250 there, and so are the 30 type tomae that are sold here with an imanishi label for $400-$500.

I suppose I don't really have that firm of thoughts about what someone should do, dealers can certainly provide value other ways (if you ask a dealer to go through their stones and find one that is on the side of performance but with cosmetic flaws, you can still get a lot of use value for your money, and at the same time, they can unload a stone that would maybe be hard to unload).

Thats the difference between dealer and reputable dealer.
A dealer is there just to make money and will do anything to make a buck. Fake stamps and soft stones are all good if they can off load them. A reputable dealer is someone like alex from thejapanstone, they have a passion for tennen toshi and can guide someone like myself who dosent have the knowledge to buy a hone that can put a great edge to a razor. Essentially you are paying a premium for their expertise.

I agree. Alex is generally premium price, but the stuff that's super premium is relatively uncommon and you can make requests. Most of the moderately priced stuff is happily unstamped (I see that as a good thing).

Both times I chose to go for unmarked stuff from Alex and asked for performance per dollar over all else, and I got that.

Alex brings his own stuff in. The situations that seem to be worst for the buyer are where there is a distributor in japan and then there is a second distributor who buys the stones. There's two mark-ups, and you get things like ohira 30 type tomae stones for $400-$500 (there are two unsold on the japanese auction site for about 1/3rd of that). They got me early on with those, and I see some unscrupulous sellers on japan still trying to list 30-type stones from that for $500.

I shouldn't say it's just two level distributors, there was also an individual who targeted the tool community and then sold off her stock to a japanese tool dealer who proceeded to sell it off at the same price.

It may be crabby friday for me!! I think I'm going to go buy one of the 30 type tomae stone for $150 and treat this like a stock situation. If I bought a share of stock for $400 and the price level dropped to $150, I'd be looking to buy more shares at $150 to make myself feel better about it!

Unfortunately theres the problem, you spend $150 on a tomae 30 hone and you take a chance or spend $82 on a nani 12k and get a known fine finisher!

I don't know squat about Japanese Stones but what I do know is all the best ones were mined long ago and the supply of freshly mined quality stones has dwindled.

The folks there know Westerners are chomping at the bit to buy these stones so stretching the truth to varying degrees has been the rule for years there.

The bottom line is if you don't want to be taken for a ride in a rickshaw you have two choices, either learn about these stones which is a large undertaking or buy from a dealer with a rock (no pun) solid reputation.

Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

Thats the difference between dealer and reputable dealer.
A dealer is there just to make money and will do anything to make a buck. Fake stamps and soft stones are all good if they can off load them. A reputable dealer is someone like alex from thejapanstone, they have a passion for tennen toshi and can guide someone like myself who dosent have the knowledge to buy a hone that can put a great edge to a razor. Essentially you are paying a premium for their expertise.

We have no way of knowing if what we consider reputable dealers get vintage and authentic stones either.
I see a lot of freshly stamped stones being sold all over the place. The reason I say that is because certain stamps sell the stones for a lot of money.
Getting a quality stone does not have to cost an arm and a leg, even if it is a Nakayama.

Originally Posted by DaveW

The other issue on the dealer side of things is that generally, you're stuck with a stone that cost about twice what it would be on the open market in japan (which often means you'll take a great loss if you re-sell later - I've been down that road), sometimes more. I see a grayish hatanaka stone (stamped, but used and with the original box) on yahoo japan for $550. It's about type 30 size or a little smaller - surprisingly strange shape for hatanaka, but perhaps because it's more modern. I'd hate to see what a dealer would ask for it, but wouldn't be surprised no matter what it was. I am tempted to buy it, but if it ends up being not that great of a stone (looks like a modern offering), I'd be under water on it.

Hatanaka, usually are perfect rectangular shaped stones, I suspect that sometimes imperfect stones did make the cut based on performance.
Here are my two which I am certain are authentic, the asagi is perfect with not a single line or chip on it.

As far as the things that are useful and relatively uncommon, shiro suita with black renge or large suita with tons of red renge and proof in pictures of strong cutting power still brings well in japan. But half of what it's sold for here. Common stones like large atagoyama (really really large) are $250 there, and so are the 30 type tomae that are sold here with an imanishi label for $400-$500.

The issue with Suita stones in Japan now is that they are pretty hard. That makes the prices lower than what they would be if the stones were softer. That is good for us if we buy direct, vendors still tend to up the price too much IMO.

I think a safe bet is to shop estate sale of barber equipment, I got a flawless Maruka (in the pics only the contours of the stamp were barely showing so i took the gamble) and got a high end stone for under $100 bucks.

Originally Posted by mainaman

We have no way of knowing if what we consider reputable dealers get vintage and authentic stones either.
I see a lot of freshly stamped stones being sold all over the place. The reason I say that is because certain stamps sell the stones for a lot of money.
Getting a quality stone does not have to cost an arm and a leg, even if it is a Nakayama.

I completely agree, and have experienced this. Be careful whom you trust when money is involved.