More than one of the beaters I practice on suffer from crumbling edges. Old vintage blades. No traces of corrosion, just crumbling. Can this be honed through to better steel or just the nature of the beast?
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More than one of the beaters I practice on suffer from crumbling edges. Old vintage blades. No traces of corrosion, just crumbling. Can this be honed through to better steel or just the nature of the beast?
Hard to say without pictures. If the razors have a lot of hone wear, the bevel angle could be narrow enough to cause good steel to crumble. I would start with one or two layers of electrical tape on the spine and reset the bevel. Keep an eye on the tape for wear, and change it when it first becomes visible - the idea is to maintain the geometry of the fresh tape.
I’ve had that happen on quite a few vintage razors. The bevel has a grey appearance sometimes. You can usually hone through it and find good steel. Happy honing!
It is hard to say what a vintage blade has been through. I did learn to hone on vintage blades, however most of those were NOS. When learning to hone I though it made sense to start with the very best blades possible to remove as many variables as I could.
Even on nice old vintage blades with no corrosion and no wear or geometry issues pressure can also be a killer and cause issues. I also think a lot of new people read through a lot of the old tape no tape debate issues and ponder it. Tape vs. No tape really is a debate for people that already know how to hone. New guys have a very high tendency to put far too much pressure on the spine and cause it to wear very quickly. My general opinion is that all new honers should use tape. The experienced guys that can do a full hone progression without wearing through the tape have the option, as always, your mileage may vary.
I find it odd that you have multiple vintage razors with edges that crumble and without any rust on or near the bevel. The odds of one person winding up with multiple razors all displaying the same issue must be pretty high against.
Could it be what you are honing with and how you hone? What hones are you using and how high a grit do you finish on. I guess it is possible to get a crumbling edge by using too much pressure on a very fine grit finishing hone.
Bob
On edges that crumble I usually raise the spine off a 320 DMT hone by at least 25 degrees and do a series of 1/2 x-strokes until I feel I'm on good steel then add at least one layer of tape depending on the level of hone wear and basically start from scratch on the bevel, this almost always works but I've had a few exceptions
Thanks for the info gentlemen. I set the bevels using an India stone and went through a progression of Arkies. I've tried finishing on Arkies and Cotis. Edge will look great under a scope and tree top like crazy. I'm using minimal pressure after bevel set. I assume a spine wear issue would present itself as an overly wide bevel? I'm not seeing this on all the flakers. No sign of warpage. The 2 that I really want to use are a Landers Frary and Clark universal and a Columbia Cutlery that is not a full hollow grind. I notice the chipping after trying them. I've tried 3 times with the Columbia and edge goes each time. Yes, the Columbia has spine wear which to my untrained eye does not appear excessive. The Landers is really nice and has minimal. I think I'll try taping the Columbia and see what happens. Thanks again, I now have some things to try. Certainly sounds like too thin of an edge.
The India could very well be causing your issue. I have tried using them and they caused chipping for me on hollow grinds. Not as much on a thicker grind but I would recommend either using a different bevel setter or wearing the surface of the India down with some 1000k+ sandpaper or higher grit SIC. Also watch the edges of those stones. If they haven’t been beveled or lapped they can have chips and do some damage to your edge. Without being there or seeing pictures I would bet that is it.
I also think this is the case, I use my India only on my kitchen knives as it's very aggressiveQuote:
Originally Posted by Steel
Steel beat me to it, I was going to suggest a higher grit stone. I have found in some of my vintage blades my 1k is too much and my 2k seems to work better. Not sure what an India oil stone rates in grit but I'd try something a bit finer.
I like to use a medium or fine India with blades with chips or for strong bevel-setting as needed. Like the Arkansas stones, the stated grit rating is relative as they break in and mellow with use. New, out of the box, they're aggressive; but once they've smoothed over, they can be redressed as needed (I use emery cloth to do this). Oil use is assumed during the honing process.
As with diamond hones, it is beneficial to use more of an up-and-down stroke with coarse cutters than an X-stroke or an even more lateral stroke; and to expedite matters with slow-acting stones like these, I use up-and-down half-laps. Use of a lateral stroke at too early a stage can lead to deep scratch patterns running more parallel to the edge that then fall off in chips when an alignment with a similar scratch pattern on the other side of the bevel is met.
Yes Gentlemen you are correct to blame my bevel set stone and my heavy handed technique. I bread knifed and reset bevel on a well run in Washita, things are looking much better. I also screwed up by raising a burr with the india and removing it with same. If I had started with the india, for the heavy lifting just to get the party started, and then went to the Washita before the burr edge was set would this have been prevented? Well, that's why I have beaters....to learn on. Meanwhile, I have a lot of honing ahead of me to correct this mistake. Love to hone so I'm a happy camper and I now have a couple more razors that may actually be useful. Thank you!
If you raise a burr you could try 1 or 2 spine leading strokes followed by a couple of normal edge leading strokes to get rid of it.
Bob
You are correct. With light pressure on a worn India stone you can get things started and finish on your Washita stone. A better option is a Washita where you can use both sides, keeping one side fresh and the other worn. It works even better and without all the possible chipping issues and you can even use the India stone to freshen and lap the cutting side of your Washita stone. Of course this all depends on the size and kind of Washita stone. I am assuming it is a full sized Norton/Pike Washita.Quote:
Originally Posted by duke762
Sometimes those old hand forged razors just do not have the structural integrity modern steels and forging practices can achieve. A guy in a dark workroom filled with smoke and steel dust pounding out yet another razor with a hammer on soft steel that is a roughly mixed alloy. Air pockets, bits of unmelted alloy material, a hangover/flu/consumption. Can ya see where Im going here? Hand crafted doesn't always mean superior quality, especially when the craft is greatly outmoded.