No need for ad hominem discussions fellas, I know we're here with a shared interest in everything straight razors and are very passionate about it
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No need for ad hominem discussions fellas, I know we're here with a shared interest in everything straight razors and are very passionate about it
Sorry but, at least from myself, I was not pushing any blame on anyone… That is not "ad hominem"!. And I must be shure, Vasilis, being greek must know better about that argument. Anyway… As said in The Godfather: "we are not animals!". hehehehe.
And then there is Vangelis…
There seem to be some posters in the discussion who are beyond their depth (and being sarcastic/rude about what they don't understand no less). There are no "carbide tipped" blades being discussed here. Carbides form naturally in certain steel alloys when they are hardened. Any alloy of steel that contains a certain percentage of tungsten or vanadium or other carbide forming alloys will naturally form these carbides, and they are a pain to deal with. Most razors are made from plain unalloyed steel, so most razor users don't have to worry about these issues.
The discussion did segue into knife steel and hardness - and this is where that comes more into play. There are also some low quality razors made whose makers didn't have very tight control over their alloys - namely a lot of blades from Pakistan I have seen this issue with - and these can have carbide issues and can be a pain to hone.
Here is a photo of a razor made from a high tungsten alloy - you can clearly see the very hard carbide particles sticking out of the steel that weren't cut by the synthetic hone.
Attachment 284525
While we are at it, did you shave with this or some kind of a blade with such carbides?
Do you detect any unfriendliness to the skin from their presence?
Martensite is a carbide too, though softer than the ones from Vanadium/Tungsten/Tantalum/Niobium etc. Carbon prefers these elements instead of iron to form the carbides, otherwise we wouldn't have them in there.
Hardening/tempering changes their size' a big crystal is less friendly and generally useful than a small one. So, if done correctly, assuming such a thing is possible, will it be detectable in shaving enjoyment? I'm not asking for references, just an opinion.
Yes, I have shaved with it often. I can't discern any difference in the feel on my face from any other well honed razor. This particular razor is probably in the neighborhood of 64/65 Rc. It is a little chippy at narrower angles - I prefer to keep it pretty close to 18° included for longevity. BTW, those carbides in my last image are on the order of 4-5 microns in diameter. The higher the percentage of alloying element, the more carbides will be formed.
As I mentioned, I have also run into production razors with considerable carbide formation - mainly those from Pakistan. Although they are sometimes a pain to hone, once the edge is nailed down, they shave just as well as any other razor. I had a very late run Filly with this issue.
The parts that look like pits to you are the shadows behind the carbides that are sticking out. The lighting source in the photo is from almost directly below the razor. Often, when honing steels with these carbides, they will be ripped out, leaving pits/holes - that may well be what you saw on the razor you mentioned. This particular honing was done gently on a very fine synthetic hone. Coarser hones ripped the carbides right out and left pits.
Here is a photo showing the carbides lit up with a slightly different light source angle.
Attachment 284533
No, this image is of a razor I made from T8 steel (~14% tungsten). Here's a link to the rest of the specs:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.azo...ArticleID=9154
Okay thanks
Oh, and as regards the earlier discussion - the T8 razor would laugh at a natural hone bevel set. I got almost nowhere with a DMT-slurried Chosera 1k.
Way too much monkey business to read through this entire thread. So I don’t know if it was mentioned but I use a Lily White Washita exclusively to set bevels and hone 3-5 razors per week. I think that says it all.
...but the point is "you will have to hone it less, so it's more reliable". I'm jesting, no offense of course and I think nobody can say what I just wrote in quotes above and really really believe it, and I hope no hard feelings from you :)
I would have liked a quality razor made from this material though to tell you my sin. And I bet it costs a small fortune.
eKertz and other knowledgeable people, I have a followup metallurgical question;
Ripping out the carbides, whole, is this something that constantly happens? These crystals, don't they break or chip from the abrasives? Should this happen, we are left with some thing like a broken crystal held together by the matrix that doesn't seem useful in steel, but still. Otherwise we are left with an edge of pretty much plain iron (solved with stropping maybe?), and speaking from experience, iron or even perlite doesn't shave no matter how well do you hone it. Now, 5 micron carbides, these are huge if you think that setting the bevel you end up with an edge that at the very point is about a micron/half a micron, thick (don't ask for references, it's in the forum somewhere with photos). So, these bigger carbides, they do nothing at the end? Or we do find them smaller?
I also wanted to ask about dendritic structures in steel and how do they break but that's too much.
This sounds like needing to know the tinsel strength in dental floss before you use it . Also I have never heard of razors made out of this stuff you guys are listing . I know carbon steel and stainless steel razors. The razors I own hone well. The barber hones all work well . The stones I have do their job with easy. This is why I like to debate things. I want to understand the problems on here.
Also you can't up set me with the things you say. I don't have thin skin. I love these debates . I think this site should be more offensive. If you seen someone about to put the razor the wrong way on a strop you would probably yell out at them. On the forum when you read some thing dumb or wrong . It seems the rule is don't say anything because feeling are involved. I don't believe in everyone gets a trophy. Are he was just trying to help . If the help is no good let them know it . You would be helping them as well.
A lot of people come here who are new so yelling at them serves no purpose other than to drive them away. You can always voice your opinion in a gentlemanly manner & if not there is always the pm system if you really want to get into it with someone & they are happy to respond but otherwise it just becomes a bunch of cranky old men arguing :p & that doesn't help people who need answers to problems.
For Vasilis: The T8 I used for that razor is known as a "High Speed Steel" and was often used for cutting/machining other softer steels back in the day. These days mostly tungsten carbide, ceramics or cubic boron nitride are used for machining. The carbides mainly serve to extend the life of the cutting edge for most similar purposes by adding tiny ultrahard particles. Some might think the benefit to a razor might be extended edge holding - but really the higher hardness does more for that for razor purposes IMO.
On a knife it's a little different because the steel matrix wears away faster than the carbides, which leaves a sort of "micro-toothed" apex. Additionally, when the carbides get ripped out, they leave a little jagged edge behind, then that wears down to expose more carbides, etc. So for knives and a "sawing" or draw cut, it is definitely beneficial to edge holding.
Honing the T8 razor really isn't that difficult - with diamond abrasives it's quite simple, and the edge can be brought up even further using a diamond or CBN pasted strop. The edge can be finished with plain synth stones as well, but I wouldn't want to set a bevel with anything other than diamond or CBN - it would take forever.
As far as whether these carbides always rip out - no they don't. Sometimes they stay put when regular synthetic abrasives are used and sometimes they don't. Synthetic abrasives like AlOx or SiC can cut them (some better than others) just not as cleanly as diamond or CBN. Truth be told, 4-5 micron carbides are pretty large in terms of the scale of a razor edge (which can apparently actually approach 0.1 micron on a very keen edge).
In terms of razor use, I personally would rather have a razor at 64/65 Rc from plain carbon steel - I don't think the carbides do much for razor longevity comparing to other razors I've used, and they are a severe detriment to ease of honing.
Where've Mike Blue when you need an answer? Tc
Here is one example of HRC66-68 steel (sadly not a razor): https://www.roselli.fi/epages/rosell...archString=Hrc
As per threads topic:
I am using following naturals for bevel corrections:
1. Japanese Amakusa Red (i got my 25cm x 5cm x for 5 euros on ebay). You can make a slurry by same piece of amakusa or by diamont plate. Get a wonderfull jnat for removing chips and preventing new chips while honing. Slurry dies break down which allows you to bridge high grid range. Have heared that some amakusas may have sand inclusions in them, my one does not.
2. Cretan hone. I have a white version (should be the most coarse). Extremly fast stone, turns the slurry black very quickly. Here again the slurry can be made by a small piece of cretan or by diamond card. Cretans slurry does also break down (nearly to a prefinish stage). My only concern with my version: it is not good for microchip removal and sometime creates new chipping (perhaps its my poor honing stroke, dont know).
Edit:
I‘ve also tried one „La Pyrenees“ but somehow this stone seems to be very pressure sensitive (lowering a pressure reduces significantly the speed by switching from sharpening to polishing) which is too strong to my taste. Apart from that my version gets a glizy surface after short honing and again goes from sharpening to polishing...
But maybe I‘ve just not yetfifured out how zo use this stone...
Regards
Philipp