Hello gents,
I am seeking for a natural hone to serve as a bevel setter.
BBW, Thuringian, JNat, Coticule, Vermio, Cretan? Which one for bevel setting?
Thanks in advance
Elias
Printable View
Hello gents,
I am seeking for a natural hone to serve as a bevel setter.
BBW, Thuringian, JNat, Coticule, Vermio, Cretan? Which one for bevel setting?
Thanks in advance
Elias
A soft Arkansas might do it
Fast coarse BBW's & Coticules can be had cheaply. JNats are slow compared to synthetics. The other 2, I have no experience with.
Wastilla from Finland, Pyrenees sandstone, a couple of Italian sandstones, there is a nice Spanish, Pedra das Meigas that works as well, Wallachian sandstone but it's hard to find, a quartzite stone that with slurry works nicely from the area Peter/hatzicho is from, a few from UK but they are really hard to find today... a couple of years ago I could remember some 20 different stones, now I'm a bit rusty.
I would not mention the Arkansas stones however, they are slow even for sharpening bronze.
Talking about slow, this is the reason we prefer the man made ones; the particles are a lot harder than the ones in natural stones, and thus cut steel a whole lot faster.
On naturals, it's pretty much silicon oxide, or some variation but with similar hardness, Mohs~7. On man made, it's AlOx or SiC Mohs 9 to 9++. It makes a huge difference, and the harder the steel, the bigger said difference on steel removal. Razors are made to be as hard as possible for steel, so, the natural stones for them is not the right way to go.
For finishers, it makes sense since the feeling of a natural stone can't be seen from pretty much any synthetic stone. On the lower spectrum of grit though, it's quite the opposite.
I have been using a Cretan hone for years now (occasional use), and it works well enough for me. If I'd be doing a lot of honing, I might have looked into something else.
I tried a Wästilä (living in Finland and all), but I wouldn't advise it for use on nice razors, as it is a bit scratchy. It works well enough for beaters and workhorse knives, though.
I'll be the heathen and say I often use a BBW .... dry, if that doesn't cut fast enough I take out a very fast Coticule on slurry.
I use a BBW dry for a lot of things, but I've messed around with trouble blades I couldn't just get sharp or arm hair shaving and took them to a dry BBW for giggles, turned out it did a great job getting it sharp
although I haven't tried 'em on blades that were FAR off, the razors I used were within reasonable reach but definitely not shaving any arm hairs
I'll have to do a chip correction on the BBW to see how fast / slow it goes
I just do regular half strokes on either side of the blade
(I also use a Coticule dry for that purpose sometimes, but on slurry it's definitely much faster)
I have to disagree. This is an translucent Arkansas shaving edge, and it shaves well. Razor are not made out of the hardest steel possible that is why you can sharpen them easy.
Attachment 284242
Natural finishers are still around because the edge is friendlier to our skin; the round shaped particles that finish our edges are different than most of the AlOx and SiC ones from the man made ones.
As for hardness, for the real razors, the softest start from 58RC and go up to 67 and even higher on some Iwasaki. You wouldn't call that soft, otherwise they would be made out of the "dreaded" 18/8 steel our spoons are made out of, and without the tempering. No hard feelings on that 18/8 steel, the spoons or the manufacturers, everything serves a purpose after all. But razors are different.
Edit; you don't need diamond hardness to refine an already well shaped edge, just to remove a few micrometers and refine the edge a bit further. On bevel setting on the other hand, you might even need to remove a whole millimeter. You can't exactly do that with a translucent Arkansas, or at least it will take enough time and elbow sweat, it will be a nightmare.
I would like to see a reference (preferably with test methodology) regarding steel being hardened over 67 Rc. I have never heard of steel getting harder than about 66 Rc. Steel this hard would likely be nearly useless and very chippy.
Carbon steel straight razors can be scratched pretty easy. They do not seem that hard to me. Also I wouldn't attempt to take a millimeter of steel off with the Translucent . Soft arkansas would me my choice.
That would be very dependent on hardness. A razor at the top end of the scale would be as near as impervious to a natural bevel setting stone so as to be almost impossible to set a bevel with one. For a razor closer to 58/60 Rc it would not be that big of a deal.
In truth, I have the same question. In fact, steel at 65RC, in a commercial scale would not only be impossible to make and sell, the sheer number of blades that would fail would be huge.
Here is an old photo I copied here from the forum on average hardness of razor manufacturers;
Attachment 284245
And the above chart is for western style razors, kamisori were going a bit higher still. I'm baffled on how but more importantly, why would anyone do that.
As for the "it's impossible to get steel harder than 66RC", it's simply not true; there is no law similar to absolute zero or speed of light; 1% carbon, correct heat treatment, quench, temper, dip in liquid Helium to maximize martensite formation & voila! You can do it yourself, with enough money, practice and patience. As for being chippy, I'm sure you are right, that thing would be more like cermet than steel. I haven't tested such a piece although I do hope to.
I'm not saying that I have seen, or verified its existence. Only that at some point I read about it, and thought "holy mother of God, how was that done and why?"
We have some very capable blacksmiths, quite possibly some of the best of our age here in the forum who know their stuff, usually in the "forge" section. I enjoy reading about their accomplishments, you can say they are the "astronauts" who walk the moon, I'm the lowly "astrologist" watching from afar.
There's a Turkish sandstone from Bolu, just south of the Black Sea, known as a "Bolu" stone. I haven't used it with razors; but a couple of summers ago, I gave one to a friend in France, and we found that it works well for starting the edges of kitchen knives and generates lots of swarf. Pretty even feel that might translate well to razors. Used with olive oil.
I got the chart from Neil Miller, may he rest in peace. I doubt you'll find a person who double checked his data more than him, I've been in many occasions where I assumed something only to be scolded by him for not being able to verify my thoughts' kind of like what's happening here. Anyway, the above chart is as legitimate as can be, for that I'm sure.
Edit; eKretz, if you have different information, or any of the above measurements are different from yours being a toolmaker, please share your knowledge. That's what this forum is for, and I meant no disrespect, naturally. It's the opposite in fact.
Skilled forging & heat treat are crucial for high hardness steels to not be chippy.
The highest control anyone has over those 2 things is making your own steel. Iwasaki tamahagane razors come the closest to that.
I have had one pass thru my hands that was ID'd as HV 860 on its box but I know they came even harder.
Iwasaki preferred a Vickers tester over Rockwell but I believe that's close to HRC 65.
Took longer to hone but far from impossible using fast cutting stones. Absolutely no chipping at any stage tho I have seen plenty of softer customs in the low 60's HRC that were chippy.
The numbers for the Iwasaki razor are about right, this thread shows one (factory tested by the maker) at 860 HV (https://straightrazorpalace.com/cust...tml#post740753) which converts to about 65 HRC, it is the same razor OZ referred to above.
67 HRC seems to be the upper limit, this thread, @ post 14 reports knives at 66-67 HRC (https://straightrazorpalace.com/razo...uestion-2.html).
F.Dick precision files are rated the same (see https://www.fine-tools.com/feile2.html), the steel used here would not be dissimilar to that used in razors
In both cases it would be safe to assume that the manufactures have put in considerable effort and great expense to get the knives/files as hard as practically possible, the knives likely for bragging rights and the files for superior performance.
I guess my point is already made. The claim that some razors were hardened "at or over 67 Rc" is unsubstantiated and very unlikely. I have no problem with a claim of 64/65 Rc. Testing a razor at or even near the cutting edge is virtually impossible because the steel is too thin for an accurate test by any method I've heard of. 67 Rc is the absolute tops I've ever heard of for carbon steel, and that's basically with zero tempering, which makes for extreme fragility. With a razor production attempt at this level, one would be likely to scrap most of the production due to cracking of the blade during heat treat. Any knives harder or even probably most of the knives at this level are likely alloys similar to ZDP.
Just to prove that I did not imagined it, and mainly to myself to be honest, but sharing my results won't hurt, here are the three threads searching for " HRC 67 " in the forum
https://straightrazorpalace.com/auct...ern-style.html
https://straightrazorpalace.com/honi...ds-honing.html &
https://straightrazorpalace.com/begi...bly-blade.html
You are right about the files too, I have read that they are tempered that high. Or close to that. I'm not starting any heated arguments, nor did I intend to from the beginning. I just said that I've read about the existence of such razors somewhere, quite possibly above. Where, again, I'm not blaming the ones saying it, I bet there were such razors/knives/files-pieces of steel.
An hyperbole for going higher than that as it turns out, so, I'm sorry everyone!
My original point was "razor are made to be hard". Also, scratching a razor is easy, even wiping one from common relatively-non-abrasives-containing dust could do it. But you can also scratch glass with a corner from a piece of calcite (crystallized CaCO3/calcium carbonate); the Calcite will be destroyed, and a tiny line will appear on the glass, that's not real scratching nor true Mohs hardness testing. I have done the exact above thing, that's why I'm mentioning it.
The DIY Mohs hardness test can be used for knives although the results are subjective; take a knife you know is tempered to above 50 and scratch another one, on the side (no clad steel, san mai and all that stuff, just a classic "monosteel" knife) with the tip to the side of the other, in a way that you'll do the minimal damage to the "known" knife but you will be able to see/feel the knife you are holding biting into/hear the other knife giving in and then feeling the line with your finger. It's an invasive method for sure, but if you don't have any other choices it answers the question "is that piece of steel any good?" quickly. If you are a blacksmith in your smith though, there are far far better options.
By the way I think we went quite off topic.
By the way, as a fellow from Cyprus, the word in Greek for sandstone is Psammite/ψαμμίτης.
With a quick google search you might find something interesting quarried locally in Cyprus.
It's not a rare material, the difficulty is to find the correct particle size, abrasion resistance-you don't want the stone to give the particles easily otherwise it would be either coarse or will have a short "lifespan", the lack of inclusions, be that coarse particles or lines that break easily and are leaving big pieces in the slurry, anyway, you want something that feels honing-friendly.
When you find, lap it nice and good until flat, sandpaper on a piece of glass the easiest way, AND FIRST TEST THE STONE ON A CHEAP KNIFE! Don't use a filarmonica 8/8", you'll go to razor hell. And again, when you do find some, I want a piece or two! :p
I used to and still occasionally use a Washita. I have an old 4x12 monster that was passed on to me by a family member. Newer ones are not as good. I think Norton closed down the quarry they once used. And off topic it’s not the hardness that is the gremlin on using naturals but the wear/abrasion resistance of the newer modern alloys that can make it a pain. If you take A2 and 1095 to the same Rc the A2 is still going to take longer to sharpen
You are partly right, some alloying elements do make steel extra wear resistant, first element that comes to mind being Vanadium. A CPM S30V knife I bought is a PITA for example, and there are many even less hone friendly steels out there. But hardness plays a very important role too.
Edit to add a bit more detail, without the heat treating, an alloying element does not form the carbides that add the extra wear-abrasion resistant effect. That's why you can't have them, and their effect without the hardening and hardness.
Any steel alloy that forms any significant amount of the harder carbides during heat treat (tungsten, vanadium, chromium, etc.) will be the devil to hone with a natural stone. Trying to hone plain carbon steel hardened to a high level (65Rc or higher) would probably fool most people into thinking they were honing one of these alloys. Both play a significant role in difficulty of honing, but the hard carbides are particularly nasty.
At the coarser level, natural stones can still cut around these carbides, but in many cases this amounts to basically eroding the steel matrix around the carbides until they fall out. Even synthetic stones have trouble cutting the harder carbides, and synthetic abrasive are considerably harder than most of those found in most natural stones.
The very best bevel setting natural hone would be a blue belgian. But, why use a natural when you can get a Naniwa 1000 or better, a diamond hone and get predictable results?.
Hope I don't get upset so many gentlemen!.
Case Muskrat 3.875" with Yellow Composition Handles and Chrome Vanadium Steel Plain Edge Blades Model 056
Item Number: CA056
Availability: In stock
Be the first to review this product
$43.99
Many Case knife users and collectors prefer chrome vanadium blades. Chrome vanadium is often referred to as carbon steel and is widely known for its ease of sharpening. Traditional pocket knife to keep in your tactical EDC.
View Specs
Qty
Add to Wish List Add to Compare
Description
Yesterday I had a razor with pretty big chips, it took too long on the BBW and I had to bust out an extremely fast Coticule on thick slurry, that thing cuts so fast I can't even believe it.
It's a vintage one, so sadly I can't comment on what layer that Coticule is, also I have no idea which modernly mined ones are very fast on slurry; but if you get one like that, they would make very quick work of setting a bevel or small to medium chip repair.
As to a previous comment, I prefer using natural stones, I have a Naniwa 1K and a diamond hone, but they're really my last resort type of stones;
that's a personal thing, as I find natural to have a little more room for error and more pleasant to use, I'm sometimes a little heavy handed ergo I have to be mindful on the the lower grit synthetics
Yes. The artificial hones are MILES better than the guesswork of any natural hone. If ever would be an commercial interest in hones for straight razors, even Apple Computer would make one, better and with a finite life… But, let's be honest, the majority of people are happy with shitty tools because there will always be a "better and improved version of whatever they want". We must stop thinking in those "good ole days!".
Where does the "carbide tipped razor" comes from? I made no such mention if I'm not mistaken.
I'm talking about practicality reasons' you don't need a carbon-nanotube(the good hard kind)-edge-made razor to need a ceramic stone to save time from honing. Using loose sand on a piece of wood was also used in the past for "setting a bevel". Can it be done? Sure, to varying success. The question is, do you want to do it?
Also, the "Chromium-Vanadium steel" that is advertised (although the "Chromium Molybdenum" is far more common but mostly an advertisement trick) is in 90% of the cases something more like this one,
Latrobe 420HC Knife Steel Composition Analysis Graph, Equivalents And Overview Version 4.35
or Composition Comparison Graph For The Knife Steels Sandvik 12C27, AISI 425M Version 4.35 you could say that's better, or
Composition Comparison Graph For The Knife Steels Aichi AUS10, Aichi AUS6A, Aichi AUS8A Version 4.35 the AUS line that starts to be reliable, depending on the maker, obviously.
Yes, these steels contain Vanadium. Technically. But I won't pay some 40$ for them. I won't even consider getting one and relying on it. Only if made by a master smith.
These are NOT however CPM 9V (Carbon 1.80%, Manganese 0.50%, Silicon 0.90%, Chromium 5.25%, Molybdenum 1.30%, Vanadium 9.00%) for example, made extra pure with really really low sulfur and phosphorus levels, and the likes.
And, it's not just that these steels are expensive; they are really really hard to work with, the failure rate is high and a single accident with a blade on the making is a lot of money and probably time lost, depending on the stage, compared to the above cheaper ones, and the finished product will have disadvantages, like that it will be quite brittle and you can't have a large blade, again generally, pretty much no matter how good a job is made hardening it.
I'm generalizing again, eKretz let me know if I'm wrong in the general lines.
Edit; Chromium Vanadium steel is not known as "carbon steel". It's known as "stainless steel".
Carbon steel generally means iron and carbon. And a couple of other elements may be added like Manganese. It contains less than 11-12-12+% Chromium, what we call stainless/stain resistant.
Carbon steel is a simple steel, possibly with less than that 0.5-0.6% Carbon. Above that 0.5-0.6% you can call it "high Carbon steel" and again, reading this is not enough to distinguish it from stainless, but giving the composition clarifies this.
Razors, the classic ones sold as "carbon steel" fell in this category, although their carbon content is high, say 0.8% but could be between 0.6-1% on that I can't be certain and every company has its own blend. And there are also these with alloying elements like the stainless ones but they say so.
Have you thought about how much metal can you rip out of a straight razor? And you worry?. I have some razors that have lasted more than a hundred years and I just can't say I have been able to misuse another 100 years.
Why we are so naive even when we don't want to be?. To end a useless discussion: We as humans will never be able to tell any difference in contents in any mix of metals, EVER! and we NEVER are going to be able to notice any difference (unless the very human nature gets into play)!.
That simple truth is so hard to grasp, that must get between a simple and joyful shave wich I will not get into any details???.
Get a stone from another planet. I assure you that the universe is made from the same materials.
I use the term "tipped " because a lot of tough tools like screw drivers and stump grinders are tipped with carbide to make it hard . Not straight razors. Natural stones will sharpen any straight razor I know of today. Also they do not cut slow as you said earlier. I have read at least a hundred post about people on this site taking tire irons, axes, hatchets, screw drivers, chisels and other means to alter the cutting properties of these stones. Why would you do that a stone that cuts at a snail pace to begin with ???
Now we are entering the bevel setting (natural) stones or the coarse grit artificial stones. What's the difference?. There is one. The one and only: It all started when someone being a "traditionalist" wanted to know about opinions about natural hones for setting bevels. Not about contents in vanadium, manganese, etc… An I can wonder about the question: Some pride needs to be fulfilled like a japanese honer which spends at least 10 years of his life learning to hone a sword that takes from him at least six months of his life. We are fans of straight razors an there are people that can do what we dream what we think we can't do just because we have not the will or the time. I DO, and the results are in my smiling face no matter the contents of silver or dirt in a steel I choose to shave my ugly facial hair. Thank you Solingen and ALL those craftsman that worried about nothin but making a manmade tool we enjoy today all the way to at least 70 years without any elephant talk that sounds like false pride. And yes, I have purchased Dovo and Boker.
...From the dawn of time, like say 5000-6000 years ago when metal became a thing :p we sharpen and hone that metal. We started with natural stones each with different speed, particle size etc. found other natural stones, found out that we can shave if we go from coarser to finer... fast forward to last couple of centuries.
Quality of steel went waaay up, know-hows became a science, we have the emergence of man made stones because when say you get a car, polishing its body with a Pyrenees sandstone/soft Arkansas before painting it.... kind of doesn't sound right (sandpaper, I know, but still, not to mention wars and steel, I'm avoiding it on purpose), and we have them today because they save us time, and they won't run out.
As for steel, yes, there was mysticism in the past and they knew how to make it one way or another, but now it's science.
It's not about shaving our face! It's about planes not falling, cars weighting less and not breaking when going with 60mph 100km/h for us non US people etc.
The idea that "wow if I add that in the alloy, will it get better?" is far from new. And we have overdone it with knives and fancy shmancy alloys. Only, for every thing we add and make it fancier, there is some other thing we are trying to get raid of, like sulfur and phosphorus, that make steel useless, for out purposes.
They do have their uses, but not for us who like edges and toughness.
So, it's not that "I have a razor 150 years old and I'm satisfied with it, so, anything extra is useless". These new alloys have actual uses in the world edges aside.
They just get used for that too, for a "niche" market of people with more money than they need OR use their tools non stop every day. You are a chef. You fillet 400 fishes in a day, that's your job after all. Would you use a 0.50c knife? How long will it take, and how long will it take to maintain it every single darned day? You pay something more, you get something with them fancy elements, and you do your job faster, better. And you pay more for it.
I'm a farmer. I can use pruners that cost 5 euros, but they won't last a week. If I do pay however 50 euros for one, it will last half a year. Which one would you choose if you were me? Same with my saws.
That's the (or one of, if nothing else) meaning behind these new fancy steels. Not the knife I show on youtube at how awesome it is for cutting half a ton of paper without losing its edge. It's for the guy who cuts 1000 fish (or tomatoes for the vegans) without the knife losing its edge.
Mastro Livi, is that you? Can you spare some razor to make myself worthy?. How about some shame that truly explorers like Charlie Lewis and others are doing to this dying business?. Yes. Some people have had not enough spending a lot ot money buying Wade and Butchers, they must praise some false idols! I wonder what Lynn must think about this shameful arguments!.
No. I stand with my only argument: Straight razors are tools and as tools, we do the only thing we do with all things that belong to the past: We take care as needed and nothing else. Those devices are not new and their persistence says only one thing: They work!. Nothing more, nothing less.
And, please, No Straight razor has ever killed anyone, not when you (et al.) try to put all those science into Sweeney Todd… hahahaha
So sad that the main theme is lost forever… Is is not the intention of Straight Razor Place (now Palace) to enjoy a shave with all that entails, no matter the cost but ultimately simply be informed?. Really informed?. I wonder…!
Offending me serves no purpose.
And it seems you did not click the Wikipedia link about the Century Of Self documentary otherwise you wouldn't give me this answer.
Yes, -some- of us are willing to pay extraordinary sums for razors just for the brand, or for stones for the stamp or place of origin. Some might even hoard them. Or anything that has more demand than supply, basic economics. I disagree with "our" attitude, a razor that shaves nicely is a good razor and that's it' I do have a W&B from a trade and a Maruka because the seller did not see the stamp; I contacted him to return it and he told me "what's done is done, keep it". I still feel bad about it, and since then I became a regular customer, but that's another matter.
I hate the fact that prices for stuff we don't truly need or have actual alternatives that produce the 100% same results get that overpriced, but that's how our world works. And want it or not, you will no matter what come into contact with such commodities. But we are part of this world, and hating it doesn't change a thing.
You are also right, if I understood correctly, that a lot of old crafts are dying and we, as a whole, try to find ways that make people, or even worse machines, do the thing humans did once that required extraordinary amounts of training. Although, in some cases, that's good (knowledge, medicine, science... many cases actually; we are alive right now because of one reason or another we survived, because of this)
But from what I see, your purpose was not a constructive conversation, so, I'm sorry I'm a fool trying to take part in it.
I must be clear on this and everything else: I mean no offense. If you feel like that, I must apologize. I have apologized twice today, I will not do it no more because it is how I am. I mean what I say but IS ONLY MY OPINION.
I must add: It seems that I am not expressing myself clearly. It seems that you are tracking every opinion I made in the whole site, but nothing that matters in here, in this very topic. It seems also, that you are taking this as a personal matter as you and I are no english speakers. This is the war about nothing!! HEHEHE.
As a side note, I must say that I love Evángelos Odysséas Papathanassíou music…
"México le debe un buen a Grecia, desde antes de la declaración de independencia de los Estados Unidos…"