If someone has used oil on a Jnat, is it ruined? Or is the stone OK?
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If someone has used oil on a Jnat, is it ruined? Or is the stone OK?
Once the oil is in there it aint gettingnout.
Theoreticaly oil is a better medium then water...reducing friction...providing better cushioning and swarf removal....preventing rust at the apex and eliminating the acidity due to acid formation with water in JNATs
On the other hand it's ireversible...it aint readily available....its messy...
People prefer water due to the lack of disadvantages....more then any extra benefits...it works...its cheap and available...it is not messy...it makes nice hamons due to acjdity of the slurry.
Two things that perform like oil are glycerine (aka glycerol) and Smith's Honing Solution. Both can be diluted with water, which allows for the ability to vary the viscosity and for easy removal from the stone.
You would most likely be damaging a stone.
There are the ones that CAN be used with oil, and the ones that SHOULDN'T. Like Thuringians and the classic Japanese. And some in-between, like, say, coticules which I have seen be used with oil; I wouldn't again recommend it, but to each his own. Or many UK stones, that can be used with one or the other. Even Arkansas stones can be used with water, although most prefer oil.
You can. But do you have to, and, will there be consequences for the stone? For your case, yes, most likely.
As Utopian said, you can use glycerin, water/glycerin mix or Smith's solution which I do use frequently, that don't "permanently" damage the stone.
I've used regular rubbing alcohol to 'degrease' jnats that have been used with oil/honing solution. It works but may take several soaks changing the alcohol depending what was used, and it doesn't hurt the stone. I think that most razor-hard jnats are only slightly permeable - mikawas seem to be different, oil will penetrate much deeper. Alcohol has also never harmed the stamps on any with stamps that I have used it on.
Cheers, Steve
I'm smiling when i write this so dont take it the wrong way....
With all due respect this oil and water dont mix thing is a bit taboo.
I have had thuringians and even Eschers that were used by the old guys at the sharpening shops with oil...when asked, they replied it make the stone cut faster and finer... at that time i thaught that was just plain stupid.
I have also recieved jnats that were used with oil or petrol...somwhere @ 50 years ago...stone was in great shape...actualy beeing impregnated with oil prevented it from cracking.
Cracking in jnats is due to oxidation of metalic substrate in the presence of air and WATER...no Water...no oxidation....no pressure effect (oxides ocupy a larger volume then the metal substrate) along the metal mineral lines and no cracking...or anyway much less of it...some cracking is due to contraction/dilatation of the stone when subjected to temperature changes...like honing with warm water.
So yess...oil is messy...it's not readyily available...if you run out you cant just go to the sink for more....but it has it's specific advantages that have to be put in balance.
NO, i am not an oil fan, i like water for the reasons mentioned above....but i think you are not damaging a stone by converting it to an oilstone...you are just repurposing it :))..some woodworkers love oilstones and they have reasons to.
i did my own experiments a while back when i found out about this...at first i felt angry like "what's this loonatic saying here use oil on my precious whetstones"...but guess what ... i tested a few stones i could dispose of and indeed they worked diffrent then on water...
for instance the 3 hone set sold by AJ...those english Slates...they cut way faster on oil....so did a slab of thuringian...coticules/BBW cut faster and finer in many cases...and jnats cut faster ...sinthetics dont get clogged with metal swarf so much....
But i guess we all have to do our own experimenting...
I like when people use arguments, scientific arguments or personal arguments from experience and testing to suport their ideas.
in short my personal opinion from what i have tested is you should use dedicated whetstones with water and oilstones with oil, but if you want to experiment, you can, the results are interesting...
Now i'm not saying pour honing oil on your Nakayama Maruka :)) or your Labled Escher...but there are cheaper stones you can experiment with.
My 2 cents, luv you guys!
@ Steve 56 .... Alcohool should not harm water soluble inks like the ones used in jnats...but it's nice to know someone tried and tested this, thanks for the info.
Wow. Thanks for the information. Lots of good stuff there.
Sounds like some other things I have heard of for example your Labrador mixes with a poodle . It isn't a mistake and the puppies are not mutts . They become "Labor doodles" And those mud-slate stones with oil in them are not Exxon oil spills . They are oil field mud now . :rofl2: Just messing with you. I don't own any so I don't know anything about them .
W8... so your poodle messed up with a Labradore and now you're confused about doodle spills and oil...and upset you dont own any of the puppyes....
That's messed up dude...
Just kidding m8. I like a good one once in a while.
Oil vs Water
You have to take the slurry into account and not once in this thread have I read the word "Slurry"
Most J-nats become REALLY good once you learn to play in the Mud, otherwise you are not getting anywhere near the potential of that stone, you are paying for a stone that you are not utilizing
The same can be said for any other stone that the Slurry is important on ie: Using an Escher with oil is a total waste of money you are basically honing on a Slate or Novaculite, it is that fine mud that a Escher can produce that achieves the smoothness on the face we all strive for
Taking the "Mud" out of the equation on stones that can produce it is such a waste :(
But they are your stones your money and your face
Sure, you are re-purposing the stone, no arguments there.
As for your explanation on why Japanese stones crack, it's wrong both from a geological as well as "chemical" perspective; stones don't split because of oxidization of "metals" left as elements inside (the whole stone is oxides, from the cutting particles to the natural "binders", its color, although some inclusions could be oxides or/and sulfides), it's something that naturally happens when you take out the pressure that was above them and add water, while in their natural environment things would be different, that's the reason, with "as few words as possible" version.
Oil does not save a stone that's about to break from a crack and, good people, please don't try to save your stones this way.
As for the speed/fineness, yes, some stones get finer with oil, that's the general rule, for the stones that can be used with oil. For speed though, water does not make a stone slower. Even better, slurry, you can't beat slurry no matter the oil you use.
Same with the synthetics, some are just not being made to be used with oil.
In the end, I agree,everyone makes his choices. And face the consequences.
Today we have a couple of other solutions on taking pretty much all the benefits of using a stone with oil, only, without the oil but using something that can be washed away right away and doesn't live residues. Try that instead of oil, unless the stone is an oilstone, or the above solutions fail.
I meant no offense by answering this, naturally.
No offense taken Vasilis. I know who you are and thatbyou are a very knowledgeable man.
I am not encouraging using oil on whetstones or sintetics.
I am just saying that this topic vas discused many times and some people do comit blasphemy and use oil.
Its not my thing, I was just trying to provide some info on the use of oil from my personal experience, not promoting its use on whetstones. If you have a stone that just wont work with water and you are not using it hell trybit with oil what are you gaing toblose...youbaint using it anyway.
About the jnats.
I have been colecting and using jnats for @6-7 years. I have owned tested and sold many stones. I have read all ther is available online about them and many scientific artickes about how they formed and what thay are made of.
I think I am speaking knowingly when I say.
These stones were formed milions of years ago in an anaerobus medium...under water...the ocean floor.
When tha naory surfaved these stones were subjected to mechanical force promoting cracks in the layers.
These cracks exposed metalic minerals to air and water promoting the formation of Kawa-bark - a colourful layer of mineral oxides in the layers of the stones...this was a time consuming process.
Other reasons for crack sormation aside from oxidation of say iron to red or black feric oxide that exerts a pressure effect on the layers promoting layer separation and cracks are.
Dimensional instability during hidratation of the calcite binder and clay binder.
Like when using with water the binder slightlybhidrates...stone absorbs water and binder increases in volume. The water does notbpenetrate the whole volume of the stone so it iscomon scientifical sense to mention that the part of the stone thatbgets hidrated expands while the dry part remains of the same dimensions.
Also these stones are subjected to the elements like wanm...cold...water and air....
Temperature plays an important role in dimensional stability by expanding and contracting the stone promoting microfractures...this is how sand formed in milions of years...its phisics...its been proven.
These microfractures/fisures expose minerals to water and air...the minerals oxidize and oxides take up a larger volume then the metalic minerals.
This leads to a pressure effect...like red lines in coticules made of feric oxides or bark lines in jnats. This again is chemestry...it makes no exception...works the same un all mineral world.
Japanese people were aware of these proceses that is why they used laquer to seal the sides and ends of stones that exibited microcracking and layer separation...to prevent them from cracking.
Also the slurry issue is interesting.
The slurry is madeup of inert minerals like the abrasive particles and active minerals that react with water forming acids in the case of jnats.
These acids start oxidizingbthe metal ofban edged object beeing sharpened ie carbon steel.
This rezults innthe haze and hamon effect jnats are known of. Depending on te type of stone and mineral content the acudity can vary from mild to pronounced like in suita stones...uchiguomory...koma nagura...used for sword polishing to bringnout the hamon-quench line between hardened and soft steel...ie BCC cristaline structure and FCC cristaline structure that respond diffrently to acid oxidation.
The haze is also due to acid activiti of the slurry...as the abrasive particles cut and scratch the carbon steel new metal is exposed...acidic slurry gets in these grooves and start coroding...the areas that are in contact with the stone and get abraded at the end of the honingnwill be fresh and shiny while the areas that were under the effect of acid will be dull and oxidized....you end up with a pattern of fresh shinybsteel and oxidized patches...they reflect light diffrently ... they scatter the light diffrently...so thats whybour eyes percieve the haze of the jnat finish.
So I think Vasilis, now you will understand what I meant by oxidation promoting cracks amongst other factors.
And also why I said using oil with jnats will end up in losing the haze and hamon due to bypassing the acidic slurry formed with water.
I also theoreticaly see no reason why slurry cant be use with oil resulting inna cutting speed increase...but then again you will lose the acidic propertyes and results will be diffrent then usingnthem with water.
Jnats are whetstones. They should be used as such.
Can you put oil on one...sure...its your business and you do it of your own free will takingbthe risks.
Is it advisable to do so...no.
Does an oil impregnated jnat resist oxidation better...
Yes...theoreticaly oil is inert...it should prevent water and air from getting in microfisures and promotingboxidation...
Same way we oil our blades to brevent rust.
I have suported all my statements with scientific arguments...I see no reason for further missunderstandings.
Hope the info is usefull and my message finds you well my friend!
Have a nice day!
Oil VS water aside, I feel the need to clarify a few things;
There was NO OXIDATION involved from the moment this mineral formation "arrived" to its location in Kyoto, up to you putting your blade on the stone, and if you don't leave the metal particles there too long, not even after that.
You can't further oxidize the stone, unless you use something like HF or other strong acids, following the Lewis "translation" for oxidization, acids and bases.
Anything that could be oxidized, has already.
The "kawa"/skin/iron oxide layer, it was there (or a crack was there that got filled with the oxide dissolved in the water, present in significant concentrations, that dried there, but the "it was already there" is what makes sense the most) long before the stone started to be extracted.
Yes, magnetite when oxidizes turns into ferric oxide. At really high temperatures, in the presence of oxygen of which not enough was available when the temperature was high for that formation, so, no. Again, there were no metals there to be oxidized, otherwise the metals themselves would be extracted, not the stone.
We seal the stones to stop any cracks that appear from getting larger, because without the pressure the stone had when it was "down there" that pressure did not allow these cracks to be formed, without "us" removing it from its place, to start a chain reaction where a pore becomes a crack, again from the lack of pressure and stable moisture levels.
Check out Alex's blog, it has some awesome posts on the geologic formation and more details of the above,
thejapanblade.com Blog | Sharpening Japanese Blades with Natural Japanese Stone for Care and Maintaince
Also, no, iron does not react with the acid in the stones; the type of stone is considered relatively pH neutral, with some being slightly acidic and some slightly basic; no reaction takes place. The haze is formed because of the shape and hardness of the particles, not some acidic reaction (unlike the fake "hamons" we see on some Chinese "Japanese" swords where acid is used deliberately but that's another matter)
Uchigumori IS a suita, a thin layer within the Suita found in the Ohira quarry, and the Nagura (komma along with the other coarser grades), the white stone, that one comes from another place of Japan all together.
Please don't misinform people on this; there are some who know it way better than we do, and if someone read the thread for the first time, he could think "hey, it's the oxygen, I'd better use oil on my Maruka" and that's something I don't want to happen.
It's simply not true. And again, no offense, I'm not attacking you, I'm trying to clarify the situation for anyone who doesn't know and reads this.
For these people, check out Alex's blog above, it has the information.
For the "use of oil", you can use slurry theoretically, but then you'll have to clean both the base stone, and the slurry stone/diamond plate; not an easy task.
Other than that, I agree, anyone can do as he pleases, and I wish a good day to you all :)
I think I got it ! Buy an expensive Jap stone and pour a quart of Quaker state oil on it . If you are not getting the results you want. Add some STP oil treatment . If the color changes just add two cups of white vinegar to neutralize the acidic properties, and you should be go to go!!!!!!!!! :rofl2: Just kidding guys some of these threads are to much fun to pass up .
Ok Vasilis, Lets break down your statments one by one and analize them.
1) yuo said '' There was NO OXIDATION involved from the moment this mineral formation "arrived" to its location in Kyoto, up to you putting your blade on the stone, and if you don't leave the metal particles there too long, not even after that. ''
I would like to link a few sites for reffrence
A)https://sites.google.com/site/japane...ural-whetstone
If you scroll down to the bottom of the page you will find a table with the mineral contents of various analised JNATS.
The table is quoted from a scientific article by Dr.of science mr. ShimaMakoto.
Lets take a few of these elements for example and do some 8th grade anorganic chemistry.
Ca(OH)2 + Fe = Ca + Fe(OH)2
https://www.chemicalaid.com/tools/eq...2B+Fe%28OH%292
What is Fe(OH)2 a precursor of rust.
Taking into consideration tere is plentyfull water...the reaction continues:
4Fe(OH)2 + O2 + 2H2O → 4Fe(OH)3
https://chemiday.com/en/reaction/3-1-0-1465
What is Fe(OH)3 ?... its what we know as rust.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust
So the stone is indeed chemicaly active.
It does promote corosion.
It does oxidize the steel.
Tempered steel and crude steel respond diffrently to corosion due to diffrent cristaline structure.
Body centered cubic vs Faceted centered cubic.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel
More on BCC FCC and why they corode at diffrent rates:
https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sourc...rpmtfpuM0Ot2f2
I am on call today and I am writing from my mobile.
But I will make time to provide scientific proof for each of my statements.
Vasilis, my wish is not to missinfirm but to educate.
And I only open my mouth when I can suport my statements with scientific evidence.
Personal opinions or quoting a site of a renowned stone dealer is not scientific proof.
Alex is a good man...knowledgeable but he is not a scientist. So please dont use his site as arguments.
We are talking phisics and chemistry...2 subjects I happen to be educated in.
I will bring furter scientific proof why in my personal opinion the stone is active and A LOT is going on when adding carbon steel and water to a jnat.
And I will make time to argument all that I have stated in the above posts....if there is interest in the topic.
Although I would prefer to use my time in a more productive manner.
Also think of why when hining on a jnat with slurry at first the slurry is dark black then as you work it it turns redish brown...
We know that the slurry off a JNat is acidic. I posted pH results of a couple of JNats maybe 7 years ago. Steel in an acidic solution is going to oxidize.
Yes...but I supose having some solid proof makes it easier to belive.
I have also used Ph paper in the slurry of various stones.
I have found suita...uchiguomori and koma to be some of the more gressive sluryes I have tested.
@Vasilis
2) you say the ''kawa was already there''
But I ask you this...
- How did it get there in the first place.
It we were to analyse the statement of oxides depositing into cracks of the stone on the bottom of the ocean...
Where did the oxides come from if not from the stone itself?
I'm trying to imagine water loaded with mineral oxides flowing into tiny fisures in the layers on the bottom of the ocean ... where oxigen concentration is low...presure is high and in some cases temperature is high.
The oxides did not flow into the cracks...THEY WERE BORN THERE...thats why they are bonded to the stone.
Yess i'll give you this...they may have formed on the bottom of the ocean....
But it's highly more probable they may have been formed by infiltrating water that flowed through the cracks once the deposit surfaced and was exposed to the oxigen in the air and flowing and infiltrating water under the effect of gravity. But seeing that we cant dive to the botom of the ocean in the oxigen poor zone to extract a jnat and check it for kawa...but we have proof kawa exists in an aerobus enveironment...who knows.
3) we are not talking about bonded iron...and other stable compounds.
Check the chart...there is enough free iron in there.
That free iron will oxidixe in the correct conditions its comon sense.
4) Once the stone has formed it's solid.
Taking it out from the bottom of the ocean or from the pressure of the mineral layer will not harm it.
Only harm can be done by mecanical or chemical action.
Ie explosion mining...heavy blows...oxide expansion...expansion/contraction....
If your statement were true my friend DIAMONDS would explode!
Diamonds are stones formed under tremendous pressure...and temperature...the cristaline structure of carbon...and yet it does not explode...nore does it crack without intervention if the cristaline structure is intact.
The only logical conclusion to draw here is that the more presure/heat a mineral takes in to reach a stable state..
THE MORE ENERGY IT TAKES TO TAKE IT OUT OF THAT STABLE STATE!!!
5) Lets talk cracks.
Say a stone has a crack.
If what you are saying was true and no oxidation occured.
And also if what I sayd about the reasons a stone cracks were false...ie.:
Oxide expansion.
Hidratation of the binder
Dimensional stability under heat variation by dilatation/contraction(various elements expand and xontract diffrently at the same temperature...this promotes tension in the stone and something has to give---->>>a crack is bourn)
For the love of God man think of expansion gaps on railroads and bridges...
So if all the reasons I mantioned above are false...
Ask yourself....how does a crack get bigger?!?!
Whats the phisics or chemestry behind a crack getting larger?!
6) What importance does the origin of a stone has...be it suita...uchi...koma.
We were discusing the oxidation they produce on carbon steel...the effects on the quench line ie. Hammon...and why they were specificaly used in sword polishing.
You realy think those master sword polishers used a specific progression of stones to polish the blade and bfing out the hammon that coincidently was made up of some of the most acidic stones they had?
7) Haze...
It's exactly what I said it is...shiny fresh abraded high spots that did not have time to oxidize and low dull darker spots that got oxidized...
Look at a jnat edge pic under magnification.
It pritty mutch sums it up.
What is the point of the multiple posts?
Oil vs water.
Why do we use water on whetstones anyway?
Well if you think about it:
1.Lubrication for one...steel slides easier on the stone when whed doesnt it?
2. Metal debry removal....it kind of gets the metal shavings out of the way of the abrasive particles...so cutting speed is maintained...even though new particles are exposed a dry whetstone would get clogged.
3. Cushioning...if you are familiar with the concept of laminar flow.
Why do we love to use water on whetstones...
1.its readily available.
2.its clean.
3.its cheap
Does oil have better propertyes then water?
-Well yes...theoreticaly it does.
1.provide better lubrication
2.thicker viscosity so better cushioning
3.metal debry removal...yes theoreticaly it does it better.
Providing the added benefits of:
1. stopping oxidation of carbon steels.
2.increasing cutting speed on slow stones by slowing down and preventing metal clogging of the honing surface.
Why dont we use oil...and we dont like the idea of using oil?
1.its messy
2.its not readily available
3.its not cheap
4.it's in most cases permanent....it impregnates the stone making it not work as a waterstone anymore.
Well that's all I got.
I think it's reasonable, argumented and explained.
Do I encourage the use of oil on whetstones...NO I DO NOT!
Is it possible?
Yes! For the reasons mentioned above.
Do I use oil on my whetstones...?
NO I DO NOT!
Only time I used honing oil on whetstones was when I got upset same as you on a guy talking about oil on whetstones...so I did my homework and personal testing.
Am I upset I spent 1 &1/2h of my life writing this down...
Yes and no...
Yes I am upset becaus I see many people tend to coment onnsubjects they are not knowledgeable about...they get in an argument they cant get out of...and then theybget upset onnthey guy trying to educate and bring progress to a topic.
And
No I do not feel upset...if I managed to open the mind and eyes of a single user reading what I wrote while upseting the ignorant...then it was not all for nothing.
Vasilis.
I have no issue with you.
You sustained your ideas to you best of knowledge you could. You are a good man.
My purpouse is not to upset but educate...the people that want to learn.
Have a nice day all and sorry for the freakin spam.
Duuude...that's all you got out of this? :)...seriously
Yes they used to use laquer on the sides and botton of the stones to protect them from cracks...some mines like Aiwatanyy even used a paint resembling the colour of the stone to seal the sides...both to protect the stone and hide various imperfections.
“ https://sites.google.com/site/japane...ural-whetstone
If you scroll down to the bottom of the page you will find a table with the mineral contents of various analised JNATS.
The table is quoted from a scientific article by Dr.of science mr. ShimaMakoto.
Lets take a few of these elements for example and do some 8th grade anorganic chemistry.
Ca(OH)2 + Fe = Ca + Fe(OH)2 “
What this good man is talking about is removing the rust from the blade with sharpening using these stones and nothing more. As for the composition of the stones, when you see a list of oxides, it doesn’t mean they are free in there. It means they are part of the composition, minerals there. You won’t find Ca2O and K2O, you’ll find their salt with SiO2 in various compositions with the rest of the elements there.
“8th grade chemistry says “Ca(OH)2 + Fe = Ca + Fe(OH)2” ? Really? Free metal Calcium from Calcium hydroxide AND iron? The calcium replaces the less electronegative elements “where it suit it”, you can’t do the above. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronegativity
So, this reaction would go Ca(OH)2 + Fe + xH2O = Ca(OH)2 + Fe(OH)2/Fe(OH)3 +H2 (“1 ½” hydrogens (you go X2) if Fe gets the +3 oxidation state). You also see bubbles of hydrogen. If only getting metallic Calcium was that easy and simple, people would be having it for some aeons around. Instead it was first isolated in 1808. THAT is 8th grade chemistry.
On Chemistry 101 on the other hand, you learn that in the above reaction, aside from oxides, you get a salt, (CaOH2) +2Fe = Ca2(FeO2) + H2 where the iron “performs the duties” of an acid in the salt, on that example, the salt has the +3 oxidation state. If you try it, you’ll get both that salt and the two oxides separate and in a balance.
“What is Fe(OH)2 a precursor of rust.
Taking into consideration tere is plentyfull water...the reaction continues:
4Fe(OH)2 + O2 + 2H2O → 4Fe(OH)3 “
Do you know that this “O2” comes from a strong oxidizing agent? Like hydrogen peroxide? NOT atmosphere. Nor someone blowing with a straw in the solution.
You can’t readily find the Fe(OH)2 on steel, or anywhere else other than a lab, but you can find the anhydrous form, FeO far more commonly combined with Fe2O3, to form Fe3O4/ FeO ∙ Fe2O3, what is known as magnetite. That’s the stuff you get in the process of bluing. Yes, guns and other carbon steel instruments that you can’t replace with stainless but need them rust free with less care than optimally, or even just in case. That patina you find on great great grandfather’s tools that must have been dust by now, only to form a nice patina on them that doesn’t allow rust to form? Magnetite. Not a precursor or rust. More like the opposite.
"What is Fe(OH)3 ?... its what we know as rust."
And yet again we are talking, I think, about steel and oxides, not hydroxides.
Rust consists of hydrated iron(III) oxides Fe2O3•nH2O and iron(III) oxide-hydroxide (FeO(OH), Fe(OH)3).
The stone, or any stone, is NOT chemically active; a razor’s finished edge is like 0.1μM thick. Do you think something that thin would not get readily oxidized? Try honing using a strong acid like HCl/HNO3/H2SO4 as your “lubricant” and see what you get for an edge. Or a base, like concentrated ammonia. The first that get attacked by chemicals is the thin layer on the surface or loose thin particles. Our edge is that thin layer, the thinnest in fact that longs to be oxidized, that’s why we don’t leave our razors wet or in water after shaving. Sure, the slightly acidic or basic nature of a stone can have an effect on steel particles left there for too long, but we try not to do that’ not only on naturals, iron particles love to get oxidized, so, we take care our synthetic stones as well not to see traces of rust and a subsequent positive feedback with any new steel on them we would expect.
“@Vasilis
2) you say the ''kawa was already there''
But I ask you this...
- How did it get there in the first place.
It we were to analyse the statement of oxides depositing into cracks of the stone on the bottom of the ocean...
Where did the oxides come from if not from the stone itself?
I'm trying to imagine water loaded with mineral oxides flowing into tiny fisures in the layers on the bottom of the ocean ... where oxigen concentration is low...presure is high and in some cases temperature is high.
The oxides did not flow into the cracks...THEY WERE BORN THERE...thats why they are bonded to the stone.”
Cracks were formed naturally, and this iron in there was there before it reached the ocean, the stone wasn’t a solid sphere, cracks existed anyway. And iron found its way in there either in the earth’s crust in the process when the material was formed, or from cracks when it reached its final destination/while reaching it, with water that had high iron oxides concentration, and as it evaporated, it left them there. There was no direct exposure on the air, the stone was under, be that sea or dirt. That skin/”kawa” did not form any time soon, as in, last few thousands of years. …And there is oxygen under earth’s surface too, you don’t need contact with the atmosphere to see oxidization. Otherwise we would have many metals in elemental state, like Iron, found naturally.
…No you can’t found elemental iron somewhere naturally (meteorites aside) if you are wondering, and no need to search for sources, our ancestors have been doing that for the last 3000 years.
"Taking it out from the bottom of the ocean or from the pressure of the mineral layer will not harm it.
Only harm can be done by mecanical or chemical action.
Ie explosion mining...heavy blows...oxide expansion...expansion/contraction....
If your statement were true my friend DIAMONDS would explode!
Diamonds are stones formed under tremendous pressure...and temperature...the cristaline structure of carbon...and yet it does not explode...nore does it crack without intervention if the cristaline structure is intact.
The only logical conclusion to draw here is that the more presure/heat a mineral takes in to reach a stable state..
THE MORE ENERGY IT TAKES TO TAKE IT OUT OF THAT STABLE STATE!!!”
Yeah, no, doesn’t make sense. We are not talking about a single 3μM crystal, we are talking about a relatively unstable rock that stayed in a stable environment for millions of years, and got out by us. Sure, it won’t turn to dust tomorrow, but it’s a matter of time of when it actually does. Every stone from there has a ticking clock, and the more stable was their shape, with fewer cracks and strange lines, the more they’ll “live”. The clock IS ticking.
On the other hand, we have something like the Translucent Arkansas. That stone is in such a state, I bet in a thousand years today’s stones will still be around, if not used enough. But these are two different rock formations. One pretty much as solid as can be and pretty much impervious to the elements/environment, the other far far less so.
Diamonds… would… explode? Why?
Also, “diamonds are stones formed under pressure”; I really like that phrase. If it was that simple, today we would be wearing solid diamond bracelets (impractical, I know, things would get constantly get scratched :p), not rings with traces on them.
Removing the pressure from above does not make the stone go boom, it just destabilizes the pressures that it was subjected to and was stabilized at. Other pieces of the same material failed to do so. That’s why there are so many quarries, for pretty much the same material. Anything in between failed to “get naturalized” under the Kyoto mountain. Follow the line of where the material runs beneath, and see on how many places it has been extracted. Anything in between failed to stay as a stone
Now, where did the explosions came from, that I do not know.
“6) What importance does the origin of a stone has...be it suita...uchi...koma.
We were discusing the oxidation they produce on carbon steel...the effects on the quench line ie. Hammon...and why they were specificaly used in sword polishing.
You realy think those master sword polishers used a specific progression of stones to polish the blade and bfing out the hammon that coincidently was made up of some of the most acidic stones they had?”
Again, no. I explained above, not again. Also, I followed a traditional toishi for some 6 months of 6 hours daily training more than a few years back (and ended up with a knee problem but now it's pretty much healed), I have a certificate that doesn't really worth a thing, and it would wrong for me to consider myself one after seeing his passion and knowledge. But I’ve had plenty of experience, and I continue to finish swords, Japanese too. No acidity. Particle size and hardness leave that pattern. Iron does not get oxidized or end up as a salt ON the piece of steel. Otherwise we would see rust, a tiny speckle and your whole tool needs repolishing and resharpening. Also, iron salts have interesting colors, but are certainly not "haze", more like green and red. So, sorry, no.
I can go on and on and on but that's not a chemistry lesson, and I have explained my thoughts above.
Check out Alex's blog (darn, I said it so many times, I'll ask for a stone in return, kidding of course)
thejapanblade.com Blog | Sharpening Japanese Blades with Natural Japanese Stone for Care and Maintaince
Everything below is interesting, for anyone having the time and thirst for knowledge I have, here you go.
Some history and thoughts on the mine structure of Kyoto | thejapanblade.com Blog
A little bit about color stones and stratas | thejapanblade.com Blog
How, why, who: grading awasedo in Japan | thejapanblade.com Blog
A peak into the past and the future regarding Jnats. | thejapanblade.com Blog
As I said, there are people who know that stuff better than us. Let them share their knowledge, we are here to enjoy our shave and honing experience. I will also not continue writing on this subject, enough is enough.
Peace friends!
Thank you for argumenting your ideas Vasilis. You made your point and i apreciate it, although i cant fully agree...i still have many unanswered questions.
i'll go read Alex's blog once again...perhaps one day i will find and explanation for why :
-pH paper behaves the way it does when put on a Jnat with slurry...
-why carbon steel rusts faster on jnat slurry...and
-why the polishing stones bring out the diffrence in the metals out the way they do.
I doubt i'll find the answer there but i dont want to be superficial so i'll take your advice.
There must be a scientific explanation for these phenomenons and i'll keep looking for it until i find a propper answer.
i'll try to send a few stone samples to get tested at the university lab....i have some friends there that know more then me.
You have a good head on your shoulders and i respect you for it!
Have a nice day Vasilis!
Every natural stone is different. Some are composed of minerals and such that do rust steel faster. It doesn't help that using the stone produces a slurry of micro-fine steel particles that get mixed with the stone slurry - think about it. Both of these produce a solution with two components that are at or near their absolute maximum of surface area, mixed with water. I have read of Japanese polishers using a touch of baking soda in their honing water to counter this effect. I occasionally do this myself.
Regarding the difference between hagane and jigane appearance, I'm sure there are other reasons at play also but a big one is the difference in hardness of the metals in question. The abrasives can cut much deeper scratches in softer metal than they can in harder metal. In effect this makes the stone behave like a coarser one on the softer metal. Notice there is very little difference in appearance between the two (hagane, jigane) when a synthetic hone is used. The synth hones are so much harder than the steel that they cut both metal types very easily.
Yes soft steel does get abraded faster.
It has a cristaline structure resembeling that of a rubix cube. Its less resistant to outside forces.
Hardened steel has a cristaline structure simmilar to a brick wall. So it can take more force.
Also these diffrent struccture respond diffrent to corosion.
I'll tell you what it's done, like most people who are in the scientific portion of the world they have made this thread to complicated and the rest of us who really work know it's only about putting a razor on a rock and shaving. All the analysis of the rocks won't make it shave any better. And to continue to beat a dead horse:deadhorse: we need to move on. I couldn't care less how many letters you have behind your name, you can't hone or shave any better than myself or hundreds of others. And I'll tell you this I'll bet I know as much about rock formations than the average person, and rocks way down below where most will ever go, but I,m not going to make this forum out to be about what I know and what you don't know. The discussion was fine till it got into a pissing argument between 2 guys who I'm sure are right in their perspectives.
All things being equal I,m ok with you Ron, the only egghead I've ever liked!:beer1:
Man where's Nelson? Maybe he could explain it to them. Tc
Yup. Agreed. This is not the place for it.
always fun watching battle of the minds here and there :beer1: