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Looking for an arkansas stone to use as a finisher after the coticules and I'm stuck choosing between the surgical black and the translucent. I know the surgical black has a gravity of 2.50 and translucent a gravity of 2.55, just wondering if that is enough of a difference to make the translucent a better finisher?
Also, would this be a good place to buy one? https://www.bestsharpeningstones.com...rpening-stones
I find that the Trans Arks provide a better feedback than the SB, however, you can not go wrong either way. I dress all of mine the same way, 600 Wet/Dry followed by a quick rub with a kitchen knife to knock down any "rogue" spots. I also use propylene glycol USP as my honing fluid of choice.
IMO, the best value for your dollar is to email Dan's and see what they have available for Primitive Cuts. I have a 13 1/2" x 4" ish trans Ark Primitive Cut that I got for a song. As with all Dan's stones, one side will be as close to flat as you can get.
I went in the middle with a True Hard from Dan's.
I can't say enough good things about this stone.
I use it with water and a drop of liquid soap.
Every one of my razors, around 125 of them, is finished with this stone after Shapton Glass 16k.
For me, it takes the bite out of the keenness and produces a buttery smooth, comfortable shave.
Attachment 315296
Good luck with your choice.
Pete <:-}
I know the surgical black has a gravity of 2.50 and translucent a gravity of 2.55, just wondering if that is enough of a difference to make the translucent a better finisher
Nope, they are natural stones that can vary from stone to stone and seller to seller.
All that matters is your stone, how it is finished, your technique and if you are satisfied with your results.
One of my stones is 2.5 sg and the other is a touch over 2.6sg, I don’t notice a difference from one to the other. Marty said it best, it really depends on the prep done to the stone. If you roughed one side in at 320-400 grit and the other side polished and burnished there would be a huge difference in apparent “grit” rating.
I'm looking at these, because they are the least expensive I can find anywhere, but I'm wondering if these would be the same Surgical Black Arks that I can find at the other vendors? https://www.bestsharpeningstones.com...&product_id=74
I have never used a stone from this company, but I'm going to make an assumption that the flatness is nowhere near where it needs to be for use with razors and you will be in for plenty of work getting it true.
Not worth the savings, Dan’s are flat to within thousandths, well worth whatever it costs. If you have never flattened a hard Arkansas you’ll soon find out why you want to pay the money.
My Dan’s surgical showed up flat enough it only took 5 minutes to make perfect then just polishing and burnishing from there which was still a couple hours worth of work to get it where I wanted it. My other stone is a vintage Pike as far as I can tell. It was out like .007” and to get it flat took 1.5 hours roughly. I could have left it as was but in my experience results are much more consistent having a flat finisher. Hard Arkansas stones don’t cut for a damn compares to almost everything thing else I’ve used. You’ll enjoy yourself much more if you can remove as many variables as possible, makes pin pointing issues much easier.
Ill chime in and confirm the stones from Dan's are VERY flat when received. I have a few stones from them and they were ready to go out of the box.
Otherwise your gonna need a lapping setup of some kind, and possibly a straightedge to check it.
Veritas Tools - Sharpening - Lapping Grit
https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop...iABEgL5F_D_BwE
I have this setup because i like to take old beater stones and fix them up, but if your buying new you shouldn't have to.
That's a rabbit hole right there.
I’ve been hearing good things with Rh preyda arks.
I doubt most people could tell the difference between a trans ark and a surgical edge
Another company to look at is natural whetstone. Prices look good.
More than likely any stone you get will need some degree of lapping, A granite tile checked to be flat with precision straight edge. With loose SiC grit and/or wet dry sand paper..
If.you choose the burnished ark route, I have finished an ark to 1000 AlOx loose grit , then burnished stone with box wrench, but prefer stone not burnished
I’ve been waiting all day to add my two cents worth. Please consider the following two links. (BTW PETERCP4E: I think our TRUE HARDS are cut from the same block).
https://sharprazorpalace.com/hones/1...hetstones.html
https://sharprazorpalace.com/hones/1...true-hard.html
A few points in no order of priority. 1. Among the TRUE HARD category of novaculite stones, color is not a determiner of density. Others words, not a spits worth of difference between translucent, hard black, or any other color variation of TRUE HARD.
2. While individual stones may slightly vary in density or individual persons may test their stone’s density, the best that can be said generally is the TRUE HARD category is 2.5+ on the GS scale. (See Dan’s Whetstone chart).
3. I know some go to extraordinary lengths to burnish and polish their stones. It’s a lot of work and IMHO unnecessary. Moderate to light burnishing will achieve excellent results. See attached related thread.
Please review my previous threads. Hope they’re helpful. I’ve got all three: translucent, hard black, and true hard. They perform exactly the same, which is to say magnificently.
I’m going to try your Shapton 16k to True Hard finish. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by petercp4e
I wanted to see the difference between the True hard categories of Arkansas stones. I bought four Gold Dollar #66. I chose them so I could practice buffing the razor and modifying the stabilizer. I also wanted blades that had consistent steel and I am cheap.
The stones are from left to right Naniwa 12K, Hard Black, Translucent, True Hard. All of these stones came from Dan's flat. I have burnished one side the other is lapped with 320 grit Silicon carbide.
The razors were honed on synthetic stones to 12K. The #1 razor was the stropped on CrOX. The other razors were honed starting on the 320 grit side then burnished side. I used a lubricant progression; started on 320 side dry then water, burnished side with Norton honing oil then WD40. I honed on each lubricant until the blade started sticking.
The result was I could not tell any appreciable difference in the shave. They were all great shaves.
Attachment 315342
I do enjoy hand holding the Translucent and the appearance of the True hard is hard to resist.
Well that kind of muddies the waters a bit, doesn’t it. Sounds like your experience leads to the conclusion that the high end arks are all pretty much comparable.
If that’s the case, I just felt some of my HAD diminish :shrug:
Just wondering how many laps you did on each as a finisher.
I am not a hone meister and maybe down the road I may be able to get more out of the hones. If I were concerned with cost or lap count I would stay with #1 razor, honed to 12K then stropped on CrOX to mellow the edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by DZEC
The Arks got hundreds of laps.
I enjoy honning and comparing the different edges thus my HAD.
remember YMMV
Al
Just to reiterate, there are three categories of Arkansas novaculite stones: soft, hard, true hard. The last category includes the translucent, surgical black, and any other color; and measure 2.5+ on the GS scale. Your specific stone may be more but is only a marginal distinction. (Nothing especially to brag about). I emphasize this because I’ve seen too many spats where one says, mine’s better than your’s.
The True Hard 2.5+ is often a retail bargain over the equivalent translucent or surgical black.
To expand on this, regardless of the stone's color Novaculite - an Arkansas sharpening stone - is %99 pure silica. Which is a very hard substance, and the difference between soft, hard, true hard is specific gravity - or how dense the stone is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Longhaultanker
The difference between the categories Surgical Black, Translucent, and True Hard is literally just color variations. Black Arkansas stones are as described - very dark blue to black. Translucent Arkansas stones are the same silica, just a different (typically uniform and solid) color of stone. True Hard stones will have all sorts of colors mixed in, but it's the same 2.5+ density, %99 silica Novaculite as any other category.
Also to chime in on what was said about a burnished surface above I agree there as well. I polished mine up to Chrome Oxide levels just to see what difference it made, and honestly you see diminishing returns around the 2K to 4K level. It's educational, but really not worth the extra effort to polish beyond 1K to 2K and burnish the stone with a kitchen knife or similar.
But since the translucent is a rare beast it is OBVIOUSLY better. When I hone on my vintage Pike translucent I can hear magical music and the edge is also magical.
Of course that is all tongue in cheek, but if you are a collector it matters. If you are just a user of these stones there is no appreciable difference in the results. I have had many of each over the years.
Thank you! I ended up getting an 11 x 4 primitive cut surgical black from Dan's Whetstones for $78 + shipping. Attachment 315527Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugger007
how do you chamfer primitive ? i am jealous!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedigree
Holy crap! That’s monster stone. Definitely give any and all lubricants a try as well as burnishing to varying degrees. Really easy to walk it back to a 400-600 grit finish. Also be careful not to slap the stone with the razor come off the spine during a stroke, the cutting action is so slow you’ll never be able to correct a mistake with a hard ark set up to finish razors. Best to walk the edge back to your prefinisher if that happens.
Chamfering a primitive is very easy. Get a chunk of old garden hose and wrap it with sand paper, it will easily mold into all the odd spaces.
Not sure yet. I have some wet/dry sandpaper and a DMT 325Quote:
Originally Posted by biglou13
What about one of those sponge-like sanding blocks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugger007
I think you will render your 325 dmt useless on and ark. I usually use granite slab plus grit, Or grit plus wet dry sand paper. I’m thinking start there, then the detail work with cut strips of rubber hose and sandpaper like rugger007 said. Part of me thinks that as long as the wavy edge is below the he honing surface you would have to do less detail work I hope some makes a video of chamfering a primitive edge ark / stone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedigree
Great, now I want a foot-long primitive Dan's surgical black (at a crazy good price like that!). With the top flattened and burnished and the sides cleaned up a bit, that is gonna be 1 sexy hone. I guess you just arrange towels around it to stabilize?
Oh, and yeah, kiss your DMT goodbye if you use it on that beast (though everybody needs a well-worn DMT 325, come to think of it).
I think the primitive cuts from Dans are the best value available in an Ark and being primitive cut, it really adds some character to an amazing stone that is usually very vanilla.
Here is my new primitive I picked up as a self Xmas gift
Attachment 315643
It is much easier to flatten a stone face, than to flatten the edges.
A Surgical Black will finish the same as a Translucent if the density of the stones are the same.
Most new stones are flat enough, to easily bring to full flatness in a few minutes. What you don’t want is an unsurfaced pocket, a stone does not need to be dead flat. But it is not difficult, if you use the right equipment.
60 grit loose Silicone carbide on a steel cookie sheet, ($15 for a 60-500 progression). You can flatten on glass or piece of marble, but neither are flat to begin with, and as soon as you start grinding on either of them with loose grit, they quickly go concave.
Precision Ground Granite surface plates go out of flat, simply by flattening tools with sand paper on them, the grit gets under the paper and grinds the stone.
But as I said, Dead Flat is not important, just be sure to remove any pockets, as those will continue to introduce parts of the stone that are not smooth as the surrounding stone wears.
A small or thin stone will hone a razor just fine for multiple lifetimes. There are very nice Surgical Black stones 8x2 or 8x3 .50 in thick at $60-80, that will work just fine. And Vintage Small 4 &6 inch Translucents are available for half that price or less in the wild,$ 2-20
It is how you finish the stone that matters, you only have to flatten and finish the stone once.
Bevel the edge with a Garage Sale file, it will trash the file.
I have never flattened a dans stone. They come dead flat, at least to my measurements. I rarely flatten any stone except to clean it or refresh the surface.
Well said and an absolutely beautiful stone! Wow. :tuQuote:
Originally Posted by Rugger007
They have an even bigger one (11 x 4?) available now for $80, I picked the 10.5 x 3.5 because of its shape.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad
I took a 60/80 grit double sided sanding block sponge from Walmart and chamfered the edges with it in about 20-30 minutes. It worked great and really rounded out the edges.
I bought one of those yoga weight bags off amazon and filled it with beans, so i can mold and adjust it flat despite the uneven surface of the bottom of the Ark.
I had my first shave yesterday off of it and must say that it was just like a coticule edge but a little sharper.
I can't find the primitive cut stones anywhere on their site, for the life of me.
Call them.
They have a fair amount of stones for sale that aren't listed on the website.
That is how I got my stone. They were happy to send pictures and we're great to do business with.
Very highly recommended.
Pete <:-}
+1..... same hereQuote:
Originally Posted by petercp4e
I am fairly quick at picking up most things of interest to me but embarrassingly slow at picking up some things (example, meme? I haven't got a hold on that). I don't
have an understanding of "burnished." Apparently it has to do with rubbing steel over the Arkansas. But to what purpose? Please someone offer some help, I promise
to give some thought effort to comprehend. I have a surgical black I would like to put into use with enough confidence to know that I am getting the best it has to offer.
So, an Arkansas stone is different from most others in that it doesn't really release grit to do the cutting, the silica creates a hard, fine-tooth that skims metal off the blade's surface. The idea behind burnishing the stone is to knock those teeth down as low as possible so they remove minimal amounts of metal, resulting in a finer polish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Learner
To illustrate Marshall’s point consider the link below. Burnishing is nothing more than polishing; from mild to significant, polishing. Maybe Marshall will post a picture of his beautiful green True Hard. You’ll see mine with mild burnishing in the link.
https://sharprazorpalace.com/hones/1...true-hard.html
I'll try to remember when I'm back home Friday. At the moment I'm 2 hours from home for work training, so I've got limited access to that sort of thing.
Edit: or I could do some digging through old threads.
https://sharprazorpalace.com/hones/1...dventures.html
I love that green candy stick.
