Hopefully should be with you soon as mine arrived the other day. I've been stuck rebuilding the deck for the last little while but hope to introduce this to my chisels and plane irons soon. :)
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Hopefully should be with you soon as mine arrived the other day. I've been stuck rebuilding the deck for the last little while but hope to introduce this to my chisels and plane irons soon. :)
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Hope you got your trans in Steve. Waiting stinks. So here is something you might want to try. You asked about a full ark progression. This is a method I've been refining for a while.
I have this one razor that has been problematic. When I got it it was supposed to be shave ready which it wasn't, or not by my standards at least. I have tried to touch it up and it was no better really so I took it back to bevel set to start over. This thread and your question came to mind so I figured this would be a good example for a full ark progression. Bear in mind though these hones were inherited and I don't really know what all of them are.
So I started with this soft/ medium which I lapped rough on one side and to 600-800 w/d (maybe 1k, honestly I don't really remember) on the other.
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I did 200 strokes on one side with fairly heavy pressure, checking until I got a definite bur and then did the same 200 on the other side. Yep, even more definitive bur on that side. (I should clarify here that when I say "strokes" I mean 1 half of a x stroke but down and then back up to where it started with the blade still on the stone. In reality this is really 2 strokes. One down and one back up but I'm counting them as 1. This is what I'm calling "back and forth" strokes) After that 100 "regular x strokes" (by which I mean just down, not back up and alternating sides of the blade) on the same side of the stone lightening pressure toward the end. Now flipped the stone and do sets of 10 back and forth for about 200. Lighter pressure as I go.
Now to the wood block mounted stone.
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This one I finished to 1k.
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Same thing here: sets of 10 back and forth for 200 or so as usual lighter pressure as I go.
Now to the small white hard/trans/true hard... whatever it is.
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This one I finished to 3k on one side.
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Same as before: sets of 10 but I think I did about 200 back and forth on the rough side then about 300 or so on the smooth side. After this I switched to regular x strokes for 100 and by the end of this the pressure is so light the blade is nearly levitating.
OH! Almost forgot to mention that between each stage I put the blade flat lengthwise on the stone and do about ¼" push pull strokes, about 20-30 each side of the blade.
Now I know someone is going to fuss at me or tell me (and you vicariously) that I am doing it wrong or have some better way since that is what usually happens. All I am saying is "TRY IT" this thing was problematic before as I said and now it is unreal comfortable. I've had others that seem to have more laser keen sharpness but I doubt any more comfortable. No sting from the alum Block except one spot I leaned a little hard under the chin and only a little more than the amount of sting from the rubbing alcohol you'd expect using it without shaving.
Unlike the pyramid (which gets groans at the very mention in these parts) I don't REALLY count except during bevel set. There I count as I do the first side till I'm satisfied with the bur then do the same amount of strokes on the other side to even it out before going on.
The other thing is I didn't look at the edge with magnification. Again, before I get fussed at, I'm NOT saying not to. Lord knows I don't want to ruffle any feathers. I could have looked at it but I just wanted to try to trust the method. I've been working on it for a while now and I just wanted to test how well the method is going without getting all analytical looking at it. Plus my dad never used magnification and neither did the old school barbers years ago. Of course 100 years ago people used to crap in a hole in the ground. Just because they used to do it doesn't mean it's the right way but it was just sort of an exercise.
As I say I've been sort of developing this method for a while, I'm sure I'm not the first to do it but it's been a new method for me. I've found it to work very well and I really love the smoothness of that ark progression bevel set to finish.
Hi Paul, I will try it and i would certainly not disagree with anyone regarding their honing techniques, I have just had a quick look down the honing rabbit hole and it was deep and scary so I'll keep my critism to myself until I have been doing it longer and got a lot better at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS;1916869
Except for Lynn Abrams, I don't like his YouTube vids because he is too full of himself and should take the freemason ring off already so I can concentate on the honing lesson.
Talking of lessons, I have some wisdom to impart already.
I was honing today, the Gold dollar actually :rolleyes:
Tip 1) I don't think I need to set the bevel on my razors every time I hone them.
I got the GD pretty sharp and then decided to remove the sharpy that I had been clumsy with. I had left the WD40 in the garage ( I was in my Workshop) but did have some brake cleaner to hand.
Tip 2) don't use brake cleaner on a blade unless you want the etching to go.
Tip 3) brake cleaner took the Gold Dollar print off the blade.
Tip 4) Now my blade doesn't say Gold Dollar, I don't have a Gold Dollar anymore.
tip 5) my razor hones much easier now it's not a Gold Dollar anymore.
Tip 8) Don't dry shave a cheek to see how sharp it is.
Tip 9) make sure all the brake cleaner is off the blade befor you try to dry shave your cheek.
Tip 10) freakin frog, brake cleaner hurts!
By the way, no Arks yet.
Well bear in mind that your mileage may vary due only in part to the fact that I cannot accurately define these stones. I have Just worked out a process with what I have, and even if I could you would likely not have one exactly the same even if you had a similar stone. This is the bad thing / good thing about natural stones. Even though you can get a better handle on them than I have there is always a certain amount of uncertainty but that's part of the cool part. It's like cooking over a wood fire instead of a gas grill or even more defined, like cooking over logs instead of charcoal. The main thing I'm getting at with this method is just the method of having stones with varying grit ranges and varying finishes on the different sides of those stones. It's an adventure. Ain't it great?!?!
After reading back over this it occurs to me that this came out a little...what's the word?...smart a$$ maybe? That was not my intention. In fact I fully expected a lot of feedback and the LACK of it made me read back over my comments. I should state for the record that this part was really more referring to the fact that I know this way is a little unconventional as far as what is accepted rite and observance here. I was prepared for rebuttal to the effect of, "that stone is not right for razors," or "that is too many laps," or "that backward stroke you're using too much," or "You should be looking at the stria," or SOMETHING.
What made me try this was thinking about the way we think of accepted practice here and how differently what I remember seeing from my dad (who owned a sharpening business) and the old barbers was. It started as an exercise...an experiment I guess and I was actually surprised myself at how good the results were. It was a sharing moment that I expected rebuttal to and the fact that I didn't get any makes me fear I have come across like a know it all who doesn't want to hear it. Let me assure everyone that I KNOW I don't know it all. Maybe I got a case of the a$$ for a moment but I never intended to ward off critique.
If anyone feels that way I guess I can't undo it but know that's not what I really meant.
I wouldn't give it a second thought Paul.
As Aaron say's in his signature "There's many roads to sharp".
If what you're doing works well for you I am very grateful for the advice based on your success.
I am grateful for any advice I get from any member/mentor with experience of Arks and just about everybody that owns an Ark has plenty to teach me considering that I don't even have one yet.
I'm not a mason either, but I still find much good advice in Lynn's videos. It's a bit sad that denigrating him is tolerated, when he was the man who re-introduced all of us, whether we know it or not, to straight razors in the modern age. There is room, I suggest, for all of us to learn from any knowledgeable source, whatever the petty squabbles about forum ownership. I've survived twenty years of all that, and I'm still willing to learn from anyone who can teach me something. It's not a bad attitude to take.
I completely agree, I hope that I made it clear that I wanted to watch and learn from Lynn.
My comment was that in my opinion he has a high opinion of himself and wants us all to notice the freemasons ring.
I have no doubt he knows his stuff and has a lot to teach me, it's just my personal opinion. Didn't want to upset anyone.
I wasn't around for the domain troubles and haven't been told too much about it.
I will also be happy to learn form anyone that knows more than me about honing, which is almost everyone actually.
I am a bit careful who I admit to watching though (lesson learned).
WooHoo :y
I've got a Translucdent Ark now!
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I have a quick question if I may.
I am dressing my trans to 600 one side as a reasonable staring point and leaving the other.
I spent 5 minutes with 600 wet n dry on my lapping plate and although I can feel a difference in the two sides I wonder if 5 minutes is enough time and how I would know when I have achieved the 600 I am shooting for.
I have also rubbed a kitchen knife over the 600 side for 5 minutes or so, I say rub because it got blunter. Knife sharpening must be harder than it looks so I'll stick to my steel for my expensive chefs knives I think. How long do I need to rub knives over the smooth side and why would I need to anyway because if I wanted it really smooth, wouldn't I just dress it to a higher grit?
Should I rub knives over the untouched side?
Thanks for helping me to understand those basics, I have had loads of great advice about honing on it, probably need to understand when it's ready to hone now.
I have spent 30 mins on a shave ready razor and it might have felt a bit nicer but only just so it might have been wishful thinking. I can't help but think that its supposed to be much nicer or why bother with the expense and work?
Is it flat?
Ink a grid on the stone face with a sharpie, pencil lead will wash off with slurry. Do 10 laps on 600 grit paper dry, on a flat substrate. MDF is flat-(er), glass and marble & granite tiles are not, unless they have been flattened. Glass is easily flattened.
Once flat running through the grits is relatively quick. Getting to flat is the trick. If not flat, 600 grit paper will not get you there on a Translucent Ark.
It is not a question of time, you must have a quantifiable measurement. It will remove all the ink in 3-5 laps or not.
If the stone is not flat, the lower parts of the stone that are not finished, will come to the surface as the rest of the stone wears and those unsurfaced spot will ruin your pristinely polished bevel and edge.
It is much like a fully bevel set. If you do not have a fully set bevel you can not polish an edge that does not exist. 90 percent of all edge problems stem from bevels that are not fully set. Most of Ark finishing issues are from stones that were never fully flat.
You only need to flatten a finish Ark once.
A stone from Dan's should be dead flat already. I doubt that's your issue.
Arks, especially that fine require a lot of laps. If you have done less than 150-200 I wouldn't expect.to see.much.if.any.difference.
And Dovo’s are shave ready.
Takes a minute to check, or hours of frustration.
It certainly won't hurt to check it but I'd be willing to bet that's not your issue. My usual run on each side of the stone is about 400 to 600 laps.The slowness of an ark is both a good thing and a bad thing. I would be a little bit more patient with the honing process but since it's been put out there you probably won't be able to stop thinking about whether it's flat or not. I've seen barbers use barber homes that are sway-backed as hell and still get a perfectly fine edge on a razor with it.
I'll take that bet!
I've had more than one that was far from flat, the last a privative from Dan's was way out. Took quite a bit of work to remedy.
I never new just how uneven and (not flat) my stones were until I acquired a Starrett brand straight edge.
Things got better after that.
There are as many answers to your question as there are users.
I would expect the stone to be flat but I would check both sides anyway. I leave one side of my stone as it came from the factory when it starts to get shiny I lap it with 220 grit until my arm gets tired, very scientific. The other side I lap up to 1 K then use it.
When I sharpen a razor I start on the factory side and hone until the razor starts to stick then on to the the other side. This is done with honing oil. Then I do the same thing using WD-40. Today I finished a razor and it took over 100 strokes on the smooth side, with WD-40 to start sticking. It takes a fair amount of sharpening before you start to get proficient. But you will get good edges as you progress, they only get better.
Hey, don't take my word for it. What do I know? My bet is still on not enough laps.
I think you're all right actually, I didn't check to see if the stone was flat, I just assumed so I will check.
I didn't spend enough time dressing the smooth side, I went straight to 600 wet n dry for 5 minutes and done. I could only feel the smooth side by licking it to know which side to use. I only used beard trimmer oil (100% mineral oil) because it's all I had to hand immediately.
I felt no sticking at any point, I think from Boz that sticking is a good indicator of razor done and the oil need to lighten up to finish. Correct me if I misunderstood.
And you are right about laps Paul, I slowly did about 100 assorted strokes which took a long time because I found that using a two inch stone took a lot of concentration to keep the blade flat. I will do a lot more and hopefully a bit faster with practice.
I didn't expect great things without a steep learning curve and to honest, I would have been disappointed if had proved easy.
It is not a question of how flat the stone is, as said these Arks are supposedly finished at 120 grit, and if they are not finished flat, pockets will be finished to a much lower grit probably the grit of the cutting implement.
As you hone on the stone, (for years), any pocket that has not been smoothed to at least 600 grit will surface, as the stone wears. Those pockets will finish at what ever grit it was surfaced at. The rest of the stone is 600 or higher, then you hit a 120 grit or lower pocket and just trashed your edge.
Not surprising that the stone is not performing, a 120 to 600 grit is a large jump for an Ark finisher. Old stones that are concave have been smoothed from years of use and finished to the same level/degree, so flatness is not an issue. This stone has never been finished.
Add to that, the quality of the edge prior to going on the Ark will have a great influence on the quality of the edge an Ark can improve. If you do not get the stone flat or remove all the deep grit stria in the stone, from too large a grit jump, the stone may never live up to its potential.
Check the stone by marking a grid with a sharpie, then lapping the stone on 600 grit paper on a known flat surface, a piece of glass flattened, (glass is not flat) any granite or marble tile you have been lapping on, is not flat.
If you cannot remove all the sharpie grid in less than 10 laps, the stone is not flat. A straight edge can give you an idea of flatness, or a dial indicator, but that is a lot of work to check every millimeter of a stone.
Just grid it with sharpie and see what comes off with 600 paper on MDF dry. Once flat you can run up and down a progression fairly easily and quickly. Use loose grit to 500 then wet and dry.
Getting to flat is the trick. It is really not about flatness but smooth and uniform, lapping it flat will get it smooth and uniform.
Fair enough. So flatten the stone. Even if it's not an issue it's not going to hurt anything And at least then you know and can check that off your list. Besides it's probably pretty good practice anyway. Still, don't forget that it takes time on those fine Arkansas stones and you can't expect to see a huge difference in 50 to 100 strokes necessarily. You have to have a pretty good edge already to refine it very much in that many strokes
Great thread guys! Debates like this is what makes SRP such a good place to get real first hand information on tough topics. Not watered down opinios!
“I felt no sticking at any point, I think from Boz that sticking is a good indicator of razor done and the oil need to lighten up to finish. Correct me if I misunderstood.”
That a razor sticks to a stone is an indicator that the bevel is flat at the point that it is sticking. It does not mean that the whole bevel is flat or that both sides are flat… or that the edges are meeting fully.
It is possible to have a flat bevel with an incomplete, or no edge.
So stiction is not an indicator of “razor done”, just that one spot is flat to the stone. If you had a proper straight and chip free edge before you went to the finish stone, you could have improved the edge. But if it the bevels were not fully meeting at a chip free edge, it is doubtful that the finish stone brought the edges to meeting fully.
It may shave, but not as well as it could.
I mention this because based on the last photo the OP posted, in a recent other thread, of his 8k bevels, the edge was not straight and chip free.
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The razor should be shave ready at the 8K level, before the finishing stone. I frequently go to my Arks from a 12k
Same hear. Ready to shave, then the Ark. Think of the Ark, as a stone that burnishes an edge, Steve. Ark finishers do not remove metal, like others. That's why all the necessary laps, their extremely slooow.
You must have patience, young Jedi. The force is within you.
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That's certainly an easier way to do it. I have been doing this ark bevel set to finish thing as an exercise and it has worked really well for me. I've been playing with it like I would play with an old bow saw instead of the chainsaw. Plus that little hard stone is just so "magical" (yes I know it is not magic but it can make magic but "magical" is just a metaphor)
Hi Marty,
I understand that Arks are going to be one steep learning curve.
Yesterday afternoon, I bought a load more wet n dry, Smiths honing fliud, glycerin, and a big ol bottle of Simple Green for when my vintage Pike Norton No1 gets here.
I get what you mean about my edge but with all due respect to your years of experience and willingness to advise and help me of which I am very grateful, I feel I made a mistake posting those microscope photo's. The microscope pics can be made to look really good and hide problems or they can be made to look bad so I question the real usefulness. I use them for my own information now.
It would seem that a lot of experienced honers, if not most don't use a microscope but are satisfied with a loupe which is what I use now for the most part.
The microscope was most useful to me before I understood what I was seeing in the loupe.
One of the reasons I question the microscope is that it shows things like the microchips that wouldn't be seen with a loupe and so wouldn't be on most peoples radar.
If I am completely wrong I sincerely apologize, I would be very interested in seeing other honers microscope pictures as a comparison to mine.
That edge was from an old beater that the person that generously sent it to me to practice honing on and said it had never shaved well. I'm pleased with it because regardless of that microscope pic, it shave so well now it is one of the razors I look forward to using.
I have looked at some brand new edges of razors that I got from people here and although really really sharp, under the microscope don't look much different to mine so as I said, I think the microscope might be more of a hindrance than a help.
The pic used to demonstrate a great 8k edge does indeed look great but i can't help but wonder if by magnifying it another 10x, flaws wouldn't be visible. As I say, a great edge in a loupe will be good enough for me I think.
Actually, the edges that I created on a few razors of good quality are a lot better, even with a microscope.
I am confident that my edges are good enough for a translucent ark but at the risk of generating a few more messages, I intend to use my trans in conjunction with my vintage Washita to set a bevel and progress to finish without touching a synth. I know what you're thinking but people do it so I am going to.
It might take me a long time to be successful but I am semi retired and if I get to spend all day everyday playing with my razors, I don't see a downside.
As I said, I meant no disrespect and I am, will always be grateful for your and everyone's advice. I am all in or all out and bloody minded, so I will get the hang of these rocks unless I run out of stone or steel first.
By the way, I checked the flatness of the trans with a square and it is perfectly flat, but I left a factory edge on one side and put a grid on the other with a sharpie.
The lowest git wet n dry I have is 320 so I started there, it took a long long time to remove all that pen (my shoulder still aches). I re applied the sharpy and used 400, that went much faster, I sharpied again and moved to 600, again it went quickly. I didn't have any small steps up so moved to 1200 after marking the stone again.
I haven't burnished it because i am not sure if I want to but I do have a really smooth stone now, not shiny but so smooth. I can't wait to wipe a razor on it.
I do have a question, if the edge is already very good off a 12k synth. How do you know when you have done with an ark, before shaving of course?
Please don't stop offering advice, I have found it invaluable.
Assuming your edge is good off the 12k, feel for rough spots on the trans, when all feels consistent on each side for the entire length of the blade you should be done. Stiction, smooth feeling, rough spots. All these you can see with a loupe. Pay close attention to what the feedback is telling you, then use the loupe to help discern what exactly it is you are feeling. The other side of the coin is lube and pressure, in this case we have a 3 sided coin. Change the variables one at a time whether it’s the finish of your stone, the amount of torque you use and how you use it, and the type of lubrication. All these with affect the edge feel on your face as well as how keen the edge is. For finishing your ark start low with the grits work your way up, and experiment with burnishing. Make sure to burnish the edges of the stone and down onto the radius of the edge of the stone for all the same reasons as Marty pointed out about a consistent finish. We spend lots of time making these stones work well for shaving, you don’t want to ruin it because you didn’t spend enough time tidying up the honing surface. The nice thing about an Ark is that it is really clear I’m telling you whether your surface is consistent or not.
Everyone that does not use high magnification, bad mouths high magnification. Most of those folks already know how to hone, and probably don’t even need a loupe.
Your 8k edge shows, you are not honing to the edge, and probably did not fully set the bevel. It is a common issue with most new honers. You should be able to see that with a 10x loupe or strong light and the naked eye… if you know what to look for.
Look at the photos on the post, (My Second try at Honing), that has been referred to in this and other of your posts. Look at PCM’s edges. He too, did not get it at first, and did not set the bevel until post 51, 20 days after his first post. He too fought it, until he got it. You did not need a Micrograph to see he was not honing to the edge.
Inexpensive micrographs allow all of us to see the same thing, no they cannot be altered to show something that is not there, without Photoshop. They show result in detail, so you can compare one technique to another.
New honers need to see as much as they can to understand what they see and understand causes and solutions. If magnification is so deceiving, why use any magnification at all?
Saying I do not need to see an issue in detail, does not make it go away. Go by any Driving range and you will see hundreds of guys smacking golf balls in every direction but straight, they think they are practicing. But what are they practicing?
A pro, will hit balls but, will have a coach behind him with a video camera and after each shot, they will discuss each aspect of the shot and look at video, dissect every part, the grip, stance and swing. A pro will use every advantage to understand how to better hit a golf ball. The one who wins a golf tournament is the one who makes the fewest mistakes.
Pros spend more time putting because games are won or lost on the putting green. You only drive 18 balls off the tee. You will make multiple putts with each hole. Pros practice putting, and you never see anyone at the public golf course on the practice green. So, really for folks on the driving range, the ladder is on the wrong wall.
Probably the worst thing about folks deriding micrographs is that new honers believe it, because they want to believe honing is easier that they have discovered. Most give up.
The other benefit is distance learning, PCM was in New Hampshire, I am in California. Really honing is not that difficult, if you understand the process.
How do you understand the process? You look at it with magnification and compare it to other micrographs of what it should look like at each stage. Or spend hours over a stone, doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
Check you ladder, the problem is not the micrograph…
:y I had a delivery.
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I soaked it in warm water and carefully removed the labels which are now dry and flat.
I replaced the warm water with boiling water and after a few minutes of soaking to get good and hot, I took it out of the water and gave it a good coating of oven cleaner.
I waited 15 minutes then scrubbed it with my toothbrush, which tasted horrible when I brushed my teeth a bit later.
After a good scrub I soaked it in 50% Simple Green & 50% water overnight.
I hosed it off and dried it.
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One side is rough and the other is smooth but neither is ready to go because I can feel that both sides are uneven so i will have to lap them both. Any ideas what grit I should lap each side to? I want a rough bevel set side and a smooth to take it to the point that a trans rough side will be able to take over.
I have noticed that there is an unimportant black spot on the left of the smooth side but a small hole on the rough side, it is visible on the right end in the photo.
Can I live with it after the stone is lapped because I imagine it will be hard to lap it out and I am not keen on losing that much stone anyway.
I didn't notice the hole before I cleaned the stone.
Nice score, Steve-I think you are definitely an Arkaholic now. I don't think I would try to lap past that hole either. You could smooth the edges and test it on knives or something to make double-sure it won't catch. I did that on a very hard Chinese stone and honed on it without issues.
I like your idea of double-siding both your Washita and the trans to make essentially a 4-stage honing progression. I for one am very interested to hear how this goes. If you really dial in the incredible range that these stones can offer just by varying blade torque as needed on all 4 sides, you might have a banging honing system worked out-please keep us informed!
My washita had a small hone. I was concerned addition material might break off around the hole so I filled it with instant glue. then lapped it flat. No problems yet?
Thanks for the info, that doesn't sound like a bad idea, might try that too.
Do you have a rough side and a smooth side on you washita?
I have to lap it on both sides because it isn't smooth. what have you got each side lapped to?
How far do you get with the smooth side, are you able to get far enough to go straight to a trans?
I too have a stone with a small hole in it. The blade skips right over and you can't even feel it.
Nice work cleaning up that stone. Properly dressed I think it will really help with your progression. I have to say Steve that I'm very impressed with how far you've come. Starting out not very long ago as someone who knew basically nothing in a very short time relatively speaking you went to being able to get very good edges on synthetic stones and now we're moving on to naturals. Some people spend years and years in the woods. Just want to say that because this is a long journey you have been on and all the good instruction in the world won't get you where you're going without some positive reinforcement. Unfortunately some people forget to do that, or maybe don't know how to in the first place. Although I should say, "...won't get you there," unless you're like me: bullheaded and determined to a fault. Of course as a locksmith you have to be. Every single thing I touch is designed to defeat me. That's its job and it wouldn't do it very well if it didn't try its best to defeat me. Maybe that colors who I am or maybe I do what I do for that reason, who knows. :shrug: Anyway I have apprenticed enough people to know that if you do nothing but correct they either get discouraged and quit or they play it too safe and have no courage for fear of making a mistake. In my business you absolutely have to have courage to succeed.
You know how you're driving down the road or doing some task and something pops into your head? Something occurred to me about what you said somewhere about honing on a 2-in stone and being worried about keeping it flat. Worrying about keeping the razor flat could potentially make you put too much torque on the razor and so not be diminishing pressure as you go through your progression. Speaking for myself I found that this was true but by holding the stone in my palm instead of on a bench it seemed to relieve that worry some. That allowed me to gradually use lighter and lighter pressure against the stone until toward the very end the blade feels as though it is hovering over it at the final stage.
Just a thought to consider. Keep up the good work.
“ Speaking for myself I found that this was true but by holding the stone in my palm instead of on a bench it seemed to relieve that worry some. That allowed me to gradually use lighter and lighter pressure against the stone until toward the very end the blade feels as though it is hovering over it at the final stage. L
One of the reasons I prefer stones in the 6 x 1.5 inch range. Holding the hone in your hand gives you much more flexibility in adjusting the angle and pressure with which the blade contacts the stone. It also makes it easier to do a rolling X-stroke.
It takes a little getting used to though. Like the first time you find your balance on a bicycle. It's a little scary at first for fear you'll wreck it but you just have to take a leap of faith and then it becomes easier quickly.
My Washita is lapped on one side to 60 grit and the other is 320 grit. I have never tried to go directly to a finisher. I suspect if I lapped the stone differently or just stayed on the stone longer I could but since I have a soft and hard ark I use them before the finisher. I suspect the test would be if you can get a decent shave off the Washita then you could go directly to the finisher.
Like the rest of us ,Steve. Use the thing...learn what the stone can do, then u can find ways to tweek out the best it can offer.
The more u use the Washita, the better they get.