I have been trying to read up a bit on Naturals.
Is hard Akansas for finishing?
I can't believe this price, please tell me it the bees knees.
https://www.amazon.ca/Genuine-Arkans...654064&sr=8-43
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I have been trying to read up a bit on Naturals.
Is hard Akansas for finishing?
I can't believe this price, please tell me it the bees knees.
https://www.amazon.ca/Genuine-Arkans...654064&sr=8-43
I stumbled on to a 2nd-hand soft Arkansas a couple of weeks ago, and planned to use that in the shop for my chisels and planes. Did a wee bit of research into Arkansas stones, and started looking into getting a hard Arkie to go along with it. Thanks to your link, I've got that on order now. :)
There are grades beyond the hard (black and translucent) that I understand will give a finer finish, but for the tools I'll be using them on, they're a bit too spendy. I have zero experience using them on razors, so hopefully others will chip in on that front.
Arks are amazing finishers..You want a Surgical Black or Translucent .
Thanks Joseph,
Can I use the Norton progession to 8K and the go to a Translucent?
Can I go to 12K Naniwa SS then the Translucent?
How would the edge be compared to 12K Naniwa, is it as keen, can I finish on Cro Ox etc.
Do you use water or oil with it?
Sorry for all the questions but I have found this and it seems like a great price:
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B01...JQHZC6XB&psc=1
The Ark will refine your edge, whatever stone you finish off. Personally I wouldn't use crox ever..
Oil or water. I use glycerin and water mixture..
Every one of my 150 or so razors is finished on a Arkie.
My stone is a True Hard which is a translucent/surgical black hybrid.
I get a very smooth, soft and comfortable edge with it. Nothing that I've found compares.
You will benefit more going as high as you can grit wise on the stone you use before going to finish on the Arkie.
I've never used oil on my stone. I put a couple of drops of hand soap to start and use water. It dilutes to mostly water as I progress.
Hope this helps.
Pete <:-}
From my own personal experience:
Can I use the Norton progression to 8K and then go to a Translucent?
Yes
Can I go to 12K Naniwa SS then the Translucent?
Yes
How would the edge be compared to 12K Naniwa, is it as keen, can I finish on Cro Ox etc.
I find that my translucent stone improves the finish by "softening" the feel of the
edge, without compromising keenness. Chromium oxide has a similar effect. I keep a felt
strop sprayed with CrOx hanging next to my linen/leather strop, which is useful for a
quick touch-up.
Do you use water or oil with it?
I use oil, because it seems to keep the stone cleaner, ie picks up and holds scarf
in suspension.
One additional comment: I used a 6x2 translucent Arkansas stone for years, and my only
complaint is that it's a bit too small. Arkansas stones are slow cutting anyway, and a small
stone makes for more (shorter) strokes. I finally acquired an 8x3 stone, and it's much
easier and faster to use. Using circle strokes on a small stone is fine, but a larger stone
is better.
IMHO
In short, hell yes! No doubt you could get a shaving edge off that hard if you know what you're about. Arkies have far more range than most other naturals depending on how the surface is prepped, amount of pressure, honing media (water, soap and water, the various oils, etc.). As others have said, spend a little more and step up to a true hard, surgical black, or translucent, especially since it sounds like you're new to Arkies and may not be able to max out that hard right away.
As for a good stepping off point, I have done many edges from Nani 12k to Arkie with stellar results. That said, lately I have gotten even better results going from my Norton 8k straight to my 14"x4" Arkie with about a hundred "windshield wiper strokes" on WD-40. But many including me hone on 6x2" (or even 4x1.5 on my old Norton translucent) quite happily and get excellent results.
There is really nothing quite like a well-done Arkie edge: just exquisitely sharp, precise and smooth. And there are many long threads on this and other fora going into great detail about surface prep (minimal with Dan's stones), various lubes and techniques. Let us know what you end up with, and how it goes!
I've too have had good success with soap. Thanks Pete.!
But I also use it with oil, and glycerin. All depends on how the steel is reacting to the stone. Its a crisp edge that I tame down with a few passes on a web strop, coated with Cr/Ox.
A translucent is finer yet, Steve. I find the 12k Naniwa, a bit too harsh for me, so a trans would fit your request.
Attachment 323071
Boy Steve you have the hunger for sure. Good for you. If you want a puzzle fall down the ark rabbit hole. There are SSOOOO many variations and so much that can change on surface prep. If you want a "ship in a bottle" project arks are it but boy is it rewarding when you get one tricked out. Arks are about smoothness and/or crispness as Mike said. The most comfortable yet still very keen edge I have been able to produce was with arks. Fortunately and unfortunately both they are slow though so don't.get impatient. If you have the patience and persistence you will be well rewarded by arks.
Oh yeah, I use water a lot, with or without soap depending but WD-40 also works really well. The list goes on as you will find. One nice thing about them is that they are so dense that the lubricant (whatever kind it is) doesn't soak in and disappear like with the synthetic stones. I know that seems a little high ($-wise) but they are well worth it if you get a good one.
I'm excited for you Steve. I think you'll really like honing with arks but you have to be willing to put in the time and effort
The stone that the OP posted is not a finisher. "Hard Arkansas" as given is a bit of a misnomer. Actually, it is a soft Arkansas stone. What happened is that the grading system was changed. The older system classified translucents and hard blacks as hard Arkanasas, but now, hard Arkansas dips down into the soft category as well. It's all explained under the Arkansas Stones 101 heading on Dan's website. The actual hard Arkansas stones that are finishers are currently marked as "true hard," "translucent," and "hard black." And as always, the price goes up there.
I'm a bit confused, I am looking at a translucent, 6x2.
Is it a finisher?
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B01...JQHZC6XB&psc=1
Before I shell out for a translucent, a questions occured to me.
I lap my Nortons with the supplied flattening stone.
I lap my Naniwa 12K ss with wet n dry on a piece of smooth tile
I have a credit card size diamond hone for making slurry on the nortons.
I do not have a DMT.
I assume I would have to lap a translucent.
How much more do I need to spend to lap it, it will possibly be deal breaker because when I press buy now for the translucent i know I'm going to have instant buyers remorse because I can't really afford it on a whim.
I know it will be a good investment and my honing journey is demanding me to get it but please tell me that I can lap it for almost free.
Yes, this one as linked is a finisher. The first one as linked, marked "hard Arkansas" on the box, was not.
As for lapping the Arkansas, there are different schools of thought on this. Dan's stones out of the box are generally pretty flat, so lapping isn't needed to make them flat (which is good as they are quite hard and wear resistant). Some folks will use them as received and let the knives and razors do the smoothing. Others will polish ("burnish" is a term often used) them up to 2000x with silicon carbide abrasives and wet/dry sandpaper seeking a smoothed surface. Others think that stopping at 600x is best as polishing up to 2000x is going too far, etc.
You can also lap one side of a translucent "rough" and the other side "smooth" for a bit more versatility. Might also be worth picking up a similarly sized soft Arkansas to see how that compares as a natural honing progression.
Do not use a diamond hone to lap an Arkansas stone as the Arkansas will make short work of the diamond hone's abrasives.
I have several Ark finishers, True hard, Black, Translucent I can't tell the difference in the edge produced they are all excellent edges. My blue black sometimes feels like a superior edge but they are hard to come by.
6x2" is a fine size. In fact, some prefer no bigger for hand-held honing. As Brontosaurus says, it should come flat from Dan's, and need no lapping. You can check it across all dimensions with a steel ruler if you're unsure. They even lapped a 14"x4" special order primitive flat for me-I'm sure they do those 6x2's routinely.
I'm not Brontosaurus, but as for how to prep your surface, his advice is spot-on. You might even leave the "bottom" side as is and see how it does in a progression-it might surprise you. Given a flat stone from Dan's, some don't even sand or burnish their stones at all; they just start using them. If you want to tweak that surface a bit, you could get a flat tile or left-over piece of granite (a sink cut-out works great if you can snag one from your local granite installer for cheap or even free, maybe). Euclid/Marty recommends a dollar-store cookie sheet. Get an assortment of wet-dry sand paper up to about 1k (maybe save the 2k to see how you like it at 1k-many stop there and prefer that little bit extra cutting power). Wet-stick it to your flat, smooth surface and go to town, making sure you sand evenly by using figure-8's, flipping it around frequently, etc. You might need several sheets of each grit depending on how obsessive you want to get.
For my big black one, I cheated and used a power-sander, wet the paper and just moved it around, back and forth until the paper was loaded up. I even chamfered and radiused the sharp edges and corners with it very quickly (which is a good idea to avoid disastrous catches on your delicate edge). It worked even better than I had hoped it would, but I'm not sure if you would be comfortable trying that on a 6x2," especially if you have never treated one before. In either case, it is imperative to keep things moving evenly to keep your surface flat!
Once you have a uniformly-sanded surface, many of us like to burnish that surface with our heaviest, hardest steel tools. This is a great chance to tune-up your biggest kitchen knives, chisels, a hatchet or similar. This is another YMMV subject with many competing opinions. You can do a search on this and the other forum and read many pages of threads on the topic
I love the translucents, by the way. They have an almost waxed-glass feel to them that is just a joy to finish on-I like shaving lather on mine (though prefer WD-40 on my surgical blacks). Experiment and see what you like.
And don't forget to take it into the darkest room in your house and put a head-lamp or similar up against it-pretty amazing that a rock will pass light!
Post pics when you get it-Arks are endlessly fascinating stones!
6" x 2" is fine. 5" x 2" used to be a standard dimension. I like that too.
To lap a translucent Ark, I have used 120x, 240x, and 320x silicon powders on a 1/4" thick sheet of plate glass. Place ~1/2 tsp. of a powder and add a little water. Mark out a grid on the surface of the stone and lap until the grid is gone. Do not put pressure on the stone in guiding it, let its own weight do the work there. Some use figure-8s, I use an up-and-down and side-to-side motion when lapping. Clean the glass thoroughly in changing grits and use a paper towel to wipe up most of the grit in removing it, throwing it in the trash rather than rinsing it down the sink which can risk to seriously clog it. After 320x, I switch to wet/dry sandpaper on the glass plate in much the same way. Stop at 600x, or go on up to 1000x, 1500x, 2000x to really smooth it, your preference.
The black hard is in theory, a finer stone, but these days I prefer a translucent. Mostly for the feel. A black hard feels brittle, a translucent feels very nice. Afterwards I finish with a pasted strop lined with the red Solingen crayon. Black crayon for touch-ups when the edge starts to fall off after repeated shaving. Just my way of approach. Many ways to skin this cat.
P.S. I mostly use a translucent as part of a dedicated Arkansas progression. I think its action is a bit more aggressive that way, hence the use of a pasted strop afterwards in my case. Some use a translucent Arkansas after a synth progression taking things to a very high level. There, I sometimes wonder if the Ark might not be taming a potentially harsh edge rather than sharpening.
So, if I understand correctly.
I can use a 6 x 2 Arkansas Translucent as a finishing stone and it will do good things after a 12k Naniwa (asssuming I use it right of course).
I can lap one side to 600 and the other to 2000, or just not lap it at all and use it straight out of the box.
If I decide to lap one side to 600 and the other to 2000, can I just use 600 and 2000 Wet & Dry instead of the powder?
I am trying to keep the prep as simple as possible and of course cost down as much as I can.
I want to order the translucent this morning but want to make sure I know what I'm getting into first.
Can a translucent be slurried, what with?
Were you able to get a shaving edge on the razor you posted in the “Bevel Width” post?
Hard Arks are finishers, that polish an edge slowly but finely. The trick is you must have a finished edge to polish first, a solid 8-12k shaving edge, or you spend some time on the stone.
They are natural stones and can vary, stone prep can also make a lot of difference in the finish they produce. They are hard stones and if not flat, it will take you a while and lots of muscle to get to flat with sandpaper. Once flat, they will polish quickly with sandpaper. I use 60 grit loose silicone oxide on a steel cookie sheet on flat cement floor to get to flat.
The good news, is you only need to flatten it once, take one side to 600 the other to 2k, then burnish it to suit. Chances are out of the box results will be disappointing.
Bottom line is if the edge is not refined, an Ark finisher will not improve an edge much. Ark edges are unique edges, keen and smooth when done right, they are however, very technique driven.
"Can a translucent be slurried, what with?"
I don't know anyone who slurries a finishing-grade Ark. They don't work like other finishers that are commonly slurried (thuris, cotis, JNats to name a few). For one thing, they are too hard to work up a slurry from the base stone without trashing a diamond plate, and it's really not needed in any event. You're really just polishing and smoothing an already shave-ready edge.
My guess is that Arkie slurry, if you could even generate usable amounts, would be so hard and sharp-edged due to its colloidal fracturing structure that it would take your edge backwards.
It took some time and redo's but my razors can all pass an hht an treetop arm hair now. I know that probably doesn't prove too much but my shaves are the closest I've ever had.
Obviously I've had some wicked edges on razors I have had sent to me or bought from here and they were almost certainly keener than mine but I have to say, my edges feel like they shave just as well so I must be doing something right.
Someone told me that honing is not that hard, just watch the water. Great advice and it put things into perspective.
I know that a natural is going to be some kind of steep learning curve but I am going to become very good at honing or die trying.
Sounds like you're already getting great edges that are comparable to expert-level off your Nani 12k. Given that and your "take no prisoners" attitude, you may not find the learning curve too intimidating. And the cool thing is that you're always learning. Even after a few years of messing with different arks, I'm always learning how far I can push them on a particular stone given different techniques.
As Marty said, Arks are very technique driven, probably more than almost any other finisher, which makes them endlessly fun to play around with to see what results you get.
Fun stones and it seems most find something that works for them. I much prefer a hand held size, 2x6 is pretty good for that.
As for lapping the two sides for starters, I would recommend leaving one as it is out of the box and lapping the other to 600x. See what that gets you. Further smoothing on that side can either be achieved by the razors themselves or by lapping to a higher grit later. Similarly, see how the un-lapped side compares to the lapped side as to more aggression, eventually lapping the unlapped side with 120x grit to return it to a more aggressive surface as needed.
Normally, no slurries with arks, particularly with its own material. Some will add slurries from other rocks but I never do this. I use oil with an Arkansas which pretty much precludes a slurry.
You know, now that I think about it I tried thuri sluri on an Ark a couple of months back, as I had gotten excellent results doing that on a Zulu Grey, but it didn't help the Arkie as I recall, so again, why bother? Forget the slurry and keep it simple, then you can play with variables as you learn your stone and what it can do.
(I know, the obvious question is, why not just do thuri slurry on a thuri, duh? I like to experiment occasionally-sometimes you hit pay dirt doing that).
Arkansas’, like other finishers aren’t magical. Very dependent on technique and experience, more so with an Ark. you may want to look on Dans website, generally their prices are as good or better, plus their cs is top notch, they take pride in their products and the customers who buy them. Try giving them a call and tell them your budget, you may get more stone for your money.
I have a 1/2x3x8 Dan’s surgical that was flat enough my qualified straight edge showed no light under it any direction. My other Ark, a vintage Pike translucent 1x2x8, finishes about the same for feel and keenness. Feel is close with the translucent Being more smooth feeling when honing both were “finished” at 1k with a ton of burnishing with chisels and plane irons. For my face that’s the finish I ended up with. I would try stopping at 600 grit and run a razor with a newly honed edge across it about 100 laps and test shave it. If it’s not keen enough try stepping up the finish on the stone with some burnishing with a carbon steel knife or tool, use some pressure too, not like chip your edge pressure but firm pressure and make sure you get all the way out to the edge of the stone too, when burnishing.
It takes a little time to dial in an Ark but worth it, imo. Lubricants are a totally different matter and will also change the feel of the edge to some degree. It is all preference no matter what the finishing stone is. I find I get a longer lasting edge coming off an 8k as opposed to a 12k but it takes more laps for me to get where I like my edge. I like Smith’s honing solution and slowly dilute from straight water to only smiths by the end of the honing session.
Agree on the Smith's.
I find Arks to be funny things. Very low feedback. Not a huge investment for a prime finishing stone (you can get second hand Dan's stones that are dead flat). Buy from Dan's or another top tier company, or else you'll spend hours flattening.
They work, but can be fairly unforgiving for a new honer. I recommend sticking with your synthetics for awhile and then getting a natural finisher once you've dialed that in. I'm more of a JNat fan; more flexibility, great feedback, smooth yet keen edges... bigger investment though. Just my 2c.
Hi guys,
While I am impatiently waiting for my new Transulecent Ark I thought of a question or two.
I tape the spine on my razors with one layer of electrical tape plus Kapton tape on everything from 1k to 12k (Nortons and Naniwa).
Should I also tape the spine on the Arkinsas? I was thinking that it might make sure the bevel still touched the stone as the angle would be the same.
I have heard that some of you use washing up liquid and some use honing oil while others of you use mineral oil.
I wondered what was considered the best, I have a bottle of Wahl Clipper Oil which is 100% mineral oil acording to the bottle. Could I use that?
Can I use just water or even use it dry?
Is there anything I could do to hurt it?
As to your questions. If you hone up the progression w/tape you will need to finish w/the same to keep the edge angle consistent finishing the edge of the previously established bevel.
As far as honing lubricants-mediums there are many that work well. I think there are allot of variables with stone surface condition being high on the list. I find that generally the more viscus the medium the slower the stone will effect the edge.
Experimentation is fun and useful, I've done this w/many different liquids - some that I prefer are Balistol & water mix, water & dish detergent, mineral oil - I often dilute this w/ mineral spirits.
I have also used WD40, Balistol un-diluted, Smiths honing solution and glycerin & water. You can use just water, if used dry I think the surface w/clog quickly and need to be re-dressed to start cutting again. These stones do not really absorb much so there is little chance of damaging your stone by using different mediums on them, clean them off after use.
Get your new stone flat first and then surfaced to at least 6oo grit - you may choose to experiment with stone surface also, let the experimentation begin.
No, it's not a water-stone. Yes, use the same taping regime you used up through 12k. Maybe even try an extra layer to do a micro-bevel for an edge that seems to need something more. I'm sure that clipper oil would work just fine. But by all means experiment with different honing fluids. As I've said, I like soapy water or shaving lather on a trans, but that could change after trying something else.
So yeah, by all means experiment. Arkies lend themselves to that more than almost any other stone. But while you're learning it, maybe only change one variable at a time so that you know what is causing any changes. And there's not much you can do to hurt an Arkie besides dropping it on a hard surface. As hard as they are, they can also fracture more easily than you think.
LOL, can I ask another question?
I have been thinking about different mediums that people use on their Arks, I have also been consuming YouTube at a ridiculous rate.
My question, after using oil, soap or anything thats not just water. How do you strop immediately after?
I can't imagine stropping a razor on my leather or cotton that I've just been honing with oil etc.
I wipe my freshly-honed edge after a session on WD-40 with tissue paper. (But first, rub off some of the tape residue with, yep, WD-40). Alcohol or another solvent on tp should get any remaining tape/oil residue. You definitely don't want any of that on any strop!
Well you should always at least rinse the razor off before stropping anyway. You can embed grit from the stones or metal shavings / filings into your strop if you don't. Preferably wash it with soap and water.
I personally prefer to use something water-based (as a lubricant on arks) since especially with electrical tape the oil-based lubricants dissolve the adhesive in the tape and make it sticky which can cause the tape to slide or get the stickiness on your stone even. In particular WD-40 does that although WD-40 is one that I prefer so...there's that. It's just an annoyance more than anything. By the way, Brontosaurus' advice about not washing the grit down the drain also applies to your synthetic stones if you use the flattening stone. You can get a rock in your drain pipes like that. I take them outside and wash them off with a hose.