A couple of quetions about hones

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

“Thank you Paul, I have listened to you and everyone here, some of which are very respected Honers tell me in no uncertain term that I already have everything I need to hone my razors and make some scary edges if I practice and learn the stones i have already.”

You are missing the point.

If you “practice” do the same thing expecting a different result, you will just trash more razors.

That is a nice barber hone, but it and ones like that are responsible for ruining more razor than dropping them. Well, really not the barber hone, how they were used/ mis-used.

Learn how to set a bevel. Learn how to hone a warped razor. Learn how to correct a heel so that a razor will sit flat on the hone. There are no magic hones, more “magic hones” are not the answer.

And stop whining.

Seriously dude, I am trying to help you. In case you have not noticed many others have already given up long ago.

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I will do my absolute best to be courteous because the last time I disagreed with something that was not very polite or necessary the result was that I was lambasted and stayed away for 6 months.

Firstly, I am not missing any point. Practice was a figure of speech and although learn is a better word, practice builds the muscle memory that i have been told that I need to build.

Secondly, I agree, I do have a nice barbers hone. I have not used it much but I have not ruined anything with it, quite the contrary.

Thirdly, I thought my post made it clear that I intended to learn the stones i have already which includes bevel setting and problem razors.

I don't feel that i am whining, or have ever whined.

I have not noticed many others that were offering me advice not doing it any more.

My comments and questions are genuine and come from the right place.

My interest in learning to hone is because i want to be a well rounded straight shaver and I hope that comes through.

I am very grateful for the help and advice i receive but if you don't think I'm worth your trouble, well - say no more.

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Originally Posted by STF

There is a lot of information out there, even on this forum. It almost certainly all works well but a new honer like myself needs to choose a honer to follow and stick with him. If a person tries to take every bodies advice at the same time he might as well just send the razor out because learning to hone will be an exercise in frustration and futility.

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While for most things I generally agree with this sentiment. I have seen plenty of hobbies where people will bounce back and forth between opposite poles of advice and never get anywhere. I think I am paraphrasing gssixgun in my rolling x stroke thread said "we over complicate this with language sometimes. you are trying to get every part of the bevel hitting the stone. do what you need to do for that to happen". He said it better, but that was the idea. I am generally being loyal to this forum when I say, most of the advice on techniques here is complacentry not opposite.

Keep in mind that this is from someone who is either in your boat or swimming somewhere in the area. But, what I have found myself doing is marking with sharpie and scraping the stone. If the first thing doesn't work I will think about what Outback said that one time and mark with sharpie and try that. Then Euclid that other time said...sharpie...scrape. Even after finding a thing that is working I will sharpie four or five times one any of the stones to make sure I am still hitting all my marks.

For me, it is generally a tactile sensation and somewhat watching the water move on the stone. Whatever your thing is that tells you that you're hitting your bevel, I think that all the advice is a mental exercise to hit that cue. Night before last I honed a razor in hand. Last night I honed one razor with a rolling x stroke and another razor with just regular x strokes. I was getting tired on the last one (plain x) and it just never quite got to where it was topping tress right through my progression. But, (stupidly) I kept going through (tired) my stones going to "fix it on the next one". Then I slurried my thuringian and played with that. It may be the sharpest one of the bunch and I am anxious to grow my hairs so I can shave test with it.

I know I have gone on a while, and I am not even entirely sure what my point is. But, I suppose if nothing else, I am finding the most success with experimenting with all of the things people are saying. That is why when I come back and thank "everyone" it is not just because everyone tried to help, but a piece of what everyone said did help. I think that one day things will click into place and either one technique will win, or I will be able to use any of the techniques on wider range of razors.

First of all, I know that everyone who has asked a question and receives an answer is grateful for the help that they've got. I also know that each one of us in varying degrees is willing to help others. Each person learns in their own way and no two people are exactly the same. I have heard people talk about how they have "trained others in many different disciplines," But still don't seem to grasp that the hardest part is learning how someone else learns. I myself have been apprenticing people in a trade that is very highly technical for many years and I can tell you now that some people could learn from a book, other people need to have their hands on something. Some people can learn from being told, other people have to see it. It doesn't make them bad or wrong it just means that their individual learning style needs to be met using a method that works for them. As if that is not complicated enough, one person can say something and the student won't get it. Another person can say the same thing and the student will get it that time. That is the nature of learning which can sometimes be hard to define. What I do know for certain is that once you start insulting the student you have failed as a teacher. That's not on the student. That's on the teacher. It can sometimes be difficult but if you have come to the point where you're getting frustrated then you need to pass that student on to someone else. I've had to do it myself. My father-in-law who I worked for taught me that. He would tell you, "As a tradesman I'm average, my strength is as a businessman." He taught me many valuable things like this. One of which was that it doesn't matter how good you are at something, if you can't communicate it to the student then you're not succeeding as a teacher and you need to let someone else do it. I see no reason why anyone needs to insult anyone else in this forum.

Steve, a one on one would be perfect for you, if it wasn't for covid.

Its so difficult to explain honing, as compared to showing someone.

I had a guy who couldn't comprehend the difference between torque and pressure. I literally had to put my hand over his hand while holding the razor to the hone, and demonstrate. Then he had no more problems with that issue. Then it was on to the next problem.

You say your getting good shaving edges, and that's awesome, at your stage. I can guarantee you have more knowledge, right now, on honing a razor properly, than I did when I started honing them. Only difference, I had more experience in honing/sharpening other things, and had a better understanding thru "experimenting" Or should we call it....practice of what doe's or doesn't work, and what it takes to make it work. Again....this was all done on that single hone I spoke of. (Est. Grit 1k)

Your doing, fine. Have fun with it, play with ideas, listen to the steel n stone, and the music your hand is orchestrating.

Don't know if you got this tip.
While honing, keep your elbow, parallel to slightly above your hone at all times, and lock it there. ( best possible )

Now hone with just your forearm and wrist. There's other benefits to honing this way, but its mainly going to keep you from honing off the edge of the hone.

Your doing great, buddy. Don't let us discourage you, with what's been said. Were only trying to help, the best we can, for the situation. And it ain't easy for us ,either.

That's right Steve. You're doing better than you think you are. I'm going to make an observation that is intended to be creative criticism. I think you worry too much about it. That's okay, it makes you cautious which is a good thing. Just don't let it hold you back. One thing that works for AND against me is the lack of fear. I have made great strides and I have ruined really nice razors. Somewhere in the middle is what to shoot for.
I agree with Mike. I think some in person would help you a lot. I sort of sense that you are more of a hands on guy. There are a lot of miles in betweenus anyway outside of the Covid thing on top of the fact that I am not an expert myself but maybe a zoom meeting sometime. I am willing to help as much as I can for as much as that is worth.

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Originally Posted by outback

Steve, a one on one would be perfect for you, if it wasn't for covid.

Its so difficult to explain honing, as compared to showing someone.

I had a guy who couldn't comprehend the difference between torque and pressure. I literally had to put my hand over his hand while holding the razor to the hone, and demonstrate. Then he had no more problems with that issue. Then it was on to the next problem.

You say your getting good shaving edges, and that's awesome, at your stage. I can guarantee you have more knowledge, right now, on honing a razor properly, than I did when I started honing them. Only difference, I had more experience in honing/sharpening other things, and had a better understanding thru "experimenting" Or should we call it....practice of what doe's or doesn't work, and what it takes to make it work. Again....this was all done on that single hone I spoke of. (Est. Grit 1k)

Your doing, fine. Have fun with it, play with ideas, listen to the steel n stone, and the music your hand is orchestrating.

Don't know if you got this tip.
While honing, keep your elbow, parallel to slightly above your hone at all times, and lock it there. ( best possible )

Now hone with just your forearm and wrist. There's other benefits to honing this way, but its mainly going to keep you from honing off the edge of the hone.

Your doing great, buddy. Don't let us discourage you, with what's been said. Were only trying to help, the best we can, for the situation. And it ain't easy for us ,either.

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Hi Mike,

You're right, a one on one would make it so much easier and answer a lot of questions.

I do think I am getting decent edges, they shave well and are comfortable. They're not Outback edges by any stretch of the imagination but they work.

I didn't know to keep my elbow up, I will start doing that, thanks.

I do understand that it's not easy giving up your time to help me and it's probably frustrating but I do appreciate it Mike.

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Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

That's right Steve. You're doing better than you think you are. I'm going to make an observation that is intended to be creative criticism. I think you worry too much about it. That's okay, it makes you cautious which is a good thing. Just don't let it hold you back. One thing that works for AND against me is the lack of fear. I have made great strides and I have ruined really nice razors. Somewhere in the middle is what to shoot for.
I agree with Mike. I think some in person would help you a lot. I sort of sense that you are more of a hands on guy. There are a lot of miles in betweenus anyway outside of the Covid thing on top of the fact that I am not an expert myself but maybe a zoom meeting sometime. I am willing to help as much as I can for as much as that is worth.

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Hi Paul,

You are probably right, I put my stones in to soak and then go to get the razor I intend to work on. I'm ready and determined, excited even and then the stone comes out of the water and the confidence evaporates. Don't misunderstand me, my edges are fine, they shave comfortably enough but I know that I could make them so much better.

I would very much like a zoom meeting Paul. I have to figure it out because i am more of a Skype guy usually.

Any time, buddy.

Hey....my first few years honing a razor, resulted in less performance than what your dealing with. I had no one, or thing ( books, internet ) to guide me along, or give me help. I learned on my own.

The only info I ever read on honing/sharpening, came out of a boyscout handbook, that belonged to my older brother, for sharpening knives and axes. I just adopted those principles, and refined them to what I was sharpening at that time.

You really want to test your ability to set a bevel, try shaving off a 1k edge. Its not pleasant, but with a little work on a pasted strop, its tolerable.

That's how I shaved for many o years, till learning about all the different hones, to refine an edge with.

Steve, I think most of us have been where you are.

There is a great initial tendency to get really excited about straight razor shaving, acquisition, honing, acquisition, stropping, acquisition etc. That often led me to match my eagerness with frustration with my inability to reproduce what many of the SRP members were able to do with apparent ease.

What I found helped me was to slow it all down a few steps. For example, taking a long breath before starting to hone and visualizing what it was I was trying to do and how I was going to do it. Then doing it slowly and deliberately to build up the muscle memory and develop a feeling for what the stone and the razor were telling me.

Malcolm Gladwell writes that it takes 10,000 repetitions to become expert at something - that’s 100 honing strokes 100 times. Be patient. You’re pretty far along already. The improvement you are looking for will come with time and practice.

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Originally Posted by STF

Hi Paul,

You are probably right, I put my stones in to soak and then go to get the razor I intend to work on. I'm ready and determined, excited even and then the stone comes out of the water and the confidence evaporates. Don't misunderstand me, my edges are fine, they shave comfortably enough but I know that I could make them so much better.

I would very much like a zoom meeting Paul. I have to figure it out because i am more of a Skype guy usually.

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I honestly don't know how to do either. I don't know if one is better than the other but I'm willing to try to figure it out.