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Hi to all SRP's fellows.
I'm testing (and eventually buy) this Ozuku.
Took some photos with my (cheap) Usb Microscope of some inclusions of the stone. Anyone can say if they are dangerous?
To the touch they do not feel and ... apparently, they don't seem to affect the passage of the blade, but I would like to be sure that cannot do any damage. :)
Thanks!
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There is another similar thread to this one about "picking" the Inclusions out of a Japanese Natural...
This is one but not the one I was thinking of, maybe somebody else remembers it
https://sharprazorpalace.com/hones/6...inclusion.html
Ooops... sorry! Can you move this post there if it's redundant?
First, do you hear anything when you go over those areas. If you hear nothing then my next step is looking at the bevel of the razor with the microscope to see if the inclusions affect it or not. I use a test razor for that just in case. If you see scratches on the bevel after going over the inclusions then that's not good.
Of course you could try to lap them out but unfortunately a lot of times you get rid of them and new ones show up. Like Glen said you could pick them out. I remember Steve56 wrote about it in the past.
Another thing to consider is that areas that can be scratchy with water only might not scratch if you are on slurry.
Thanks!
I've already tested a razor (water only & with slurry) and after water I saw 2 chips on the edge... but I didn't checked well before starting and that razor had already some chips in the past. Don't rememer if I eliminated all before. So... I'll test it again this evening and check it better... ;)
Those types of inclusions can be a problem but not all of them are all of the time. They can release grit from inside the ‘hole’ which can be cleaned out with a pick, but the brown areas can also be harder than the rest of the stone. In the end, you just have to try it and see, but I’d pass on a stone with inclusions that are that prominent unless the price was really low, like tomo nagura low. Hard barber size Ozuku are cheap anyway.
Maybe this is the thread Glen’s thinking of?
https://sharprazorpalace.com/hones/1...nat-lines.html
If it is a problem that will chip an edge, you will feel it honing on a thin slurry.
If you do not feel it, it is not a problem. It is part of buying stones cheap on eBay, and the fun. Sometimes you find gold. But as said usually you are not paying a lot for these stones. If they are not razor quality, they make good knife or tool stones.
If you do have to pick one out, I use a carbide scribe. General makes an inexpensive one available at Lowes or Home Depot. I fill with CA and let dry hard a day or two then lap flat. CA kicker hardened is not as hard as air dried CA.
Usually if you are going to have a problem it is the white inclusions, quartz that is harder than the stone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve56
Yeppers that is the one it had great ideas from you and others, and pics to boot :)
Thanks all for your reply.
First of all I would like to point out that this Ozuku is not mine, but I'm testing it (and eventually buy). :)
Yesterday made a couple of (more) in-depth tests with 2 razors. A Gold Dollar & a (just @ home) unknown Swedish razor.
Tested the Gold Dollar first water only and then with a light Sho-Honyama slurry. The chip on the edge was already there before the test.
As it seemed good enough... (Isn't it?) I ventured to work on the stone with the Swedish razor.
After bevel setting with a King 1K I went on the Ozuku with a diamond slurry used in progressive diluition, followed by 30 laps of stropping on leather.
Today it delivered a very confortable shave. Next time I'll shave with the Gold Dollar.
Maybe I'll make an offer (50/60€) to the owner and see if he agree... Am I wrong? :) :) :)
Gold Dollar
Price depends on provenance, size, and thickness. The stone does appear to be a performer with just diamond slurry and room for yet more refinement.
The original chip looks like impact damage of something round and hard, faucet or counter edge, too large for a stone occlusion. I would expect some residual edge micro chipping after it appears the chip was removed.
Impact damage usually goes much deeper than the bottom of the chip, note the grain disruption below the bottom of the chip. (arrows) Once honed out stropping will stress any weak spot and can microchip out.
While I usually hone out any damage with synthetic and joint or breadknife the edge flat and finish on a natural, removing a chip is a good test for a stone. This one is aggressive, leaves a nice finish and straight edge. Should shave well.
You can experiment with other Tomo and Mikawa Nagura (white stone) to refine the finish and edge. The Mikawa nagura market is challenging and Asano (stamped) can be suspect and wildly priced. For a razor honer a single Mikawa stone can be a lifetime purchase, so buy wisely. Prices in the last few years have skyrocketed and some stones difficult to find.
As with all-natural stones, performance will vary, some stones work better together. It is after all a synergy or honing stew.
If you use a synthetic bevel setter, you do not need a full Mikawa progression and can jump to a Tenjyou or Mejiro after diamond slurry. and finish on Koma or tomo.
A Tsushima Black Nagura is one of my favorites after bevel setting, in place of diamond slurry. It is very aggressive and removes 1k slurry quickly yet breaks down to polish finely if worked.
From the Tsushima I go to a Tenjyou, then Koma or tomo. A lot depends on the base stone and the razor hardness.
I use thin slurry and prefer to add slurry for aggression if needed rather that dilute a thick slurry. It is a matter of experimentation.
All Nagura, with exception of Diamond and Tsushima Black are finishing slurry and even they can be worked down to finishing slurries, so experimentation is key. It is not like one would need to reset a bevel if the nagura progression is not working out, just add more slurry or switch to a finer nagura and polish out the unwanted result.
It appears that the Ozuku is aggressive yet capable of delivering a finished edge. With still some room for improvement with nagura experimentation.
Were I you I would look at a Tsushima Black and a Asano stamped Mikawa Tenjyou for your next level of honing and Koma down the road.
I would invest in Nagura rather than accumulating more Awasedo. And it can be a bit of an investment. Any nagura you acquire can work with other stones down the road, so none would be a waste of time or funds. It is a matter of finding the right combination for the stones, razor and technique.Attachment 329271
I agree with you, and that's exactly what I'm planning to do. For this reason I was testing the Ozuku (Happy that you think this is a good stone :) )Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
Actually for this purpose I've just a Nakayama Kiita Koppa and wanted to have a more regular shaped "base" stone (and also have two stones with different characteristics to possibly adapt to different types of razors).
I'm going now to check for a tsushima & tenjyou and would like to get a Tomo (Nakayama or Ozuku) too. Actually I've only a Shobudani's Tomo and a small Sho-Honyama that can be used as a Tomo (see the Gold Dollar above).
Ops. Forgot to say that yes, I diluted the diamond slurry but didn't start from a thick one. I would say something more than a light one...Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
Two roads to Rome, thick slurry and thin, or thin slurry and add as needed.
Try them both and see which works best for you. For me it is easier to control by adding slurry as needed. At different points in the process, you want aggression or polish.
I add water with squirt bottle, lab type can add a drop at a time or flood, helps keep slurry on the stone.
I hone on a Steelex rubber holder, on a plastic tray. I level the tray (strips of Yoga mat under the tray) to keep the slurry/water on the stone.
Euclid440
You're giving me soo much knoweledge that I have some difficulty in absorbing it all and putting it into practice. :)
But since you are so kind, I take this opportunity to ask for clarification regarding the slurry.
I understand that, if I have to make the 1K sharpening marks disappear, the slurry must be dense and then, progressively lighter, as it goes into finishing.
But I don't understand the other method: that is, you start with light slurry and then add more new? Or do you clean the stone and do it again? Also I can't understand the basics of this second method. Do you not go from a light action to a heavier one? If so ... why?
It depends on the base stone and the nagura, how aggressive or fine each is.
If you make a thick slurry like cream, let’s say a Diamond slurry. So that all the slurry is from one source, the base stone. It will be most aggressive in the beginning. So, at some point, once you have removed all the stria that you need to, you begin to thin and remove slurry to polish.
Or you start by making a thin slurry like 2% milk, as it becomes less aggressive, you add more slurry, and keep adding slurry to add more aggression/cutting power as needed.
Then once stria is removed, wash off all old slurry and swarf and make new slurry and work it to break it down to fine slurry. New slurry will not have all the swarf in it. It is a 2-stage process, cutting and polishing.
Most folks use a spray water bottle to keep the slurry wet. With a spray bottle there is very little control, so the slurry thins quickly and washes off the stone. They are in effect doing both methods. You see videos of guys using giant pump sprayers used for insecticides to thin slurry.
I am more precise adding water and try to keep all the slurry and water on the stone. Rather than start with a thick slurry and fight keeping it on the stone, I use a thin slurry and add water and grit/slurry as needed.
One method is removing, the other is adding. There is no, one way or right way. But it is clear to me, why some find honing so difficult.
The more you develop a system and practice it, the more repeatable your results become. It is a small thing, and something that most do not even consider, but when you think about it, it is a different approach.
When you add a natural nagura, Tomo or Mikawa the variables increase and now you have two grits that may break down at different rates and may contain different grits or kind of grit.
Now remember, I usually go to a natural from a Snow White 8k near mirror bevel finish, so I am not removing 1k stria and it does not take hundreds of laps to get the bevels and edge where I want them and begin to polish.
When we move up in grit progression, we are asking the stone or grit to do 2 things. First remove the previous grit stria or shape the steel in the early stages (bevel setting). And in the final stages to polish the steel. Where most guys make a mistake is, not spending enough time, pressure, or correct technique, to refine the bevel and/or remove the previous stria. Or in the case of bevel setting grind the bevels flat and meeting fully.
Using a Diamond slurry to remove 1k is a method of testing the aggression and polishing ability of a base stone, though one could also use that as a simplified honing method. I prefer a more controlled method.
It is just rubbing steel on rocks, but if you simplify your method it is easily repeatable. The more steps you add the more difficult is it to repeat or to alter if the results are not what you want.
If it is not working, change one thing at a time. Keep it simple because a natural stone is not simple. First, we do not know what is in the stone. Is it homogeneous? It can’t be, it is a rock. As the stone wears it can change properties, it was created in layers of silt.
I agree it is a lot to think about, but if you approach it systematically it is easier to correct inconsistent result and repeat successful results.
Getting to sharp is easy, sharp, and comfortable is all together different, getting sharp, comfortable, repeatable results is a system.
Hey Euclid, I thought I understood what you are saying, but just to be clear about your adding/subtracting. You add a little slurry at at time to get thicker until it starts removing the stria. Once it starts working you then start diluting it for progression? Or maybe add some back in if it stops cutting enough to remove the stria?
Not to make it thicker, add aggression. A new thin slurry will cut faster than a worked thick slurry. You just add a bit more grit.
A new fresh thin slurry will cut and remove steel. I am not removing 1k stria, I am just building a Kazumi (hazy) finish from a polished finish and making the edge straighter.
You refine the bevel to straighten/refine the edge, you cannot just hone the edge, you must refine a bevel, even a micro bevel.
If you are going through a progression, first you need to remove the previous stria, then with the same stone grit or slurry you need to polish the bevel and edge.
The difference is adding grit or removing grit, most folks use too much grit for razors.
Thanks to the last two answers (thanks to Planeden for his question too) think I'm starting to understand the rationale behind the second way to use slurry.
I've to say that I discovered a whole world after I bought the microscope & starting to test this kind of approach to Jnats (i.e. Bevel Setting > Finishishing stone with slurry & naguras).
Until then I used the "classic" western progression: Bevel setter (Synt) > Pre finisher (Both synt or natural) > Finisher (Natural). Checked the results with a 40X loupe (not easy for me, as I wear glasses and don't see so well). Moreover, couldn't share what I "saw" and that makes the learning curve more difficult.
Anyway, I was happy with results and got some great shaves (depending more on the razor's previous geometrical conditions than on my honing progression).
I.e. I'm quite new to honing and I have more difficulty in understanding and solving some geometric defects of old razors (yes... I buy cheap old razors around and use them to gain honing experience... but for shaving too :) :) :) ) than in putting into practice a sharpening pyramid or (as Euclid said) a "system" of sharpening. In summary: if the razors I sharpened were in good condition ... they cut deep and comfortable, whether the finish was done with a Llyn Melynllyn purple Welsh slate (light slurry), or a Llyn Idwal (novaculitis used with oil), or again, with an unknown Italian stone named Curgèle (slurry + water only).
(Of course I also have as touchstones some razors that I bought from much more experienced sharpeners than me and finished on Jnats or Escher or Zulu Gray).
Not to say these or mine were the best honed possible... so, curiosity, the desire for knowledge and the awareness of always having to improve, led me to the "fabulous" world of Jnats ... And now, thanks to all the advice received, I'm seriously starting to have fun.
Thanks again!
If you are having trouble honing with bad geometry, here is the thread that improved me significantly.
https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...tml?highlight=
Gonna read ASAP thanks! :)
