Hi guys
After speaking with one member who has switched to Glass, I was wondering what you guys were using these days and what you used previously. How do they compare?
Printable View
Hi guys
After speaking with one member who has switched to Glass, I was wondering what you guys were using these days and what you used previously. How do they compare?
For most razors
Naniwa Chosera / Professional 1-5-10 into a Natural finisher depending on the steel characteristics through the progression
I use the GS 1-2-4-6-8-16-30 pretty much only with the razors that can handle a 30k edge nowadays,,, Most American and especially NY made
The Naniwa SS 1-3-5-8-10-12 are mostly reserved for some of the new finicky steels, they are very gentle polishers and you can avoid so many issues using them, especially with slurry... Many Customs, Revisor, some of the TI steel, Wacker these are so easy when you take all the steps, and you avoid the "Sparklies"
Those short intervals sound good to me.
I'm considering transitioning to glass when I start honing again but I would probably just go to 8 or 16 and use film or compound if I wanted to go finer. Wouldn't use a 30 enough to justify the expense, if at all. Not sure how it compares to other edges. I'll have to see how sharp I can get a Torrey someday on film. :hmmm:
Also you can get away with a pasted strop if you don't have a natural. Can't get much sharper than a 12k Kuromaku edge but it does need some taming.
Ironically it's one of their stones they don't recommend for razors but I think it was Iwasaki san or Mizouchi san said you could use the 12k if you didn't have a Jnat.
Norton 1K, 4K, 8K, Chinese with/without Belgian slur, Suehiro Gokumyo 20K
Usually 1 - 3 - 8 - 12k Naniwa SS or 1k Naniwa SS - Coticle
Lat weeekend I had a Skype one on one with a member in Florida on Arks, now Washita - med Ark - Trans Ark is in the mix too.
Shapton Kuromaku 1k or 1.5k (I prefer the 1.5k) to set a bevel followed by Norton 4k/8k, then BBW/Coticule and finish with a Vermio or Pierre La Lune or Oozuku, depending on my mood. Sometimes I end with chromium oxide on balsa.
I’m not very scientific about it, but the Sheffield steels seem to really like the coticules.
Bevel set with 1k Chosera
Butterscotch Washita
Light blue Thurigan. ( slurry- water )
Blue/green Thurigan. (Slurry-water )
Seems to work wonders with any steel.
But as I've said before....honing doesn't end on the stone, it stops on the strop. To me its the most important, to a set bevel. The strop can make or brake an edge.
Glass 1, 2, 4, 10, then Gok20. I still like to go to .5 and .25 diamond strops before leather. Seens to work for me most the time. But if it doesnt I will get the Naniwa stones out.
By current do you mean today? It may be different tomorrow. I guess it is important to disclaim that I am not a professional and consequently I have the luxury (or ignorance, however you want to look at it) to hone on any old rock I stub my toe on. Hell, on a lark I even decided to see if one actually could hone on a brick; true story.
To me honing is cathartic and sort of meditative but I am also not trying to make a deadline or concerned about time efficiency. Sort of like primitive camping there is value in being able to do it for the eventuality that you may need those skills one day but it is certainly not the smoothest way. That is why I like to play around with natural progressions and picking rocks out of planters and seeing if they make a good finisher.
However, when time is a factor I will use some combination of 600DMT (for bevel correction and to shorten the time on 1k for really dull edges) Norton 1k, 4k, 8k or King 1k, 6k, Sharptton 12k then thuri or black/trans Ark finish most of the time.
I have a feeling that peoples answers to this quest is directly related to what edge they prefer.
During the week I shave with a double edge with Feather and Astra green blades. When I travel, I shave with a shavette using Feather blades.
With this being said, many will understand why my combination is 1,2,4,8,16k Shapton Glass (the 1 & 2k is seldom used), followed by a light slurried y/g thuringian.
I had the 30k, but realized that it was no good for me. I sent it to several people who agreed with my findings. Glen was the one who discovered that maybe 1% of the razors out there could handle
such a fine edge before crumbling.
My ‘bread and butter’ sequence is actually two sequences, which I choose depending on the condition of the edge. These sequences do not include coarse hones for corrective honing. Shapton Glass Stones are designed to go in 3x steps, and the HR series can go in 4x steps because they’re incredibly fast, at least on conventional carbon steel. The Shapton Glass 2k HR is my normal bevel setter for ‘new to me’ razors.
Shapton Glass 2k HR -> Shapton Glass 6k HC -> JNat
Shapton Glass 4k HR -> Shapton Glass 8k HC -> JNat
I have a few other finishers like a Gok 20k and a complete set of Shapton G7 including the 0.85u (~17k) and the 0.44u (~34k) and both the G7s work pretty well. I do not have the Shapton Glass HR 16k or 30k, but most razors that I’ve tried on the high grit G7 take the edge, though my experience with them is limited (but increasing).
So, my approach is probably totally different than anybody else's. However, it works on my face and produces what I call an exceptional edge and a very good edge. Here's how I define each:
Exceptional
The razor will get this rating when on the first pass (with the grain), it shaves all the hair from your face without leaving a lot of stubble. It must be smooth with hardly any pressure. On the second pass (against the grain), it must get every bit of stubble left on your face and delivers a baby butt smooth surface on your entire face. This is the shave that you are looking for on every razor. However, not every razor is capable of this rating. This is the best of the best!
Very Good
The razor will get this rating when on the first pass (with the grain), it shaves most the hair from your face but may leave a little stubble. It must be smooth with hardly any pressure. On the second pass (against the grain), it will generally get most of stubble left on your face and delivers a baby butt smooth surface on your entire face, but may just not as smooth or close as an exceptional shave. There will be a lot of Razors that fit into this category and they are good razors. Not every razor can be exceptional! This is a totally acceptable razor and shave! You may just need to touch up the razor some on your finishing stones, followed by stropping on canvas and leather to bring it to an exceptional rating.
My process:
Set the bevel
Here I use 1000grit wet / dry sandpaper on plate glass. Then move to 2000grit until edge is very crisp.
Honing
1. Start with marble plate using CrOx and a mixture of mineral oil and honing oil on the first go around. One layer of tape on the spine.
2. Utilize a marble plate with 1.0 diamond paste and a mixture of mineral oil and honing oil. One layer of tape on the spine.
3. Utilize a marble plate with 0.5 diamond paste and a mixture of mineral oil and honing oil. One layer of tape on the spine.
4. Utilize a marble plate with 0.25 diamond paste and a mixture of mineral oil and honing oil. One layer of tape on the spine.
This process for me produces a very keen edge.
Polishing
1. Use a Hall's Pro edge Surgical Black stone and a mixture of mineral oil and honing oil. One layer of tape on the spine. 1st stage of the polishing process for me.
Attachment 340403
2. Move to a 10K Norton water stone and a mixture of mineral oil and honing oil. One layer of tape on the spine. Green stone in picture.
Attachment 340404
3. Move to a piece of slate that I pulled out of the Potomac River and a mixture of mineral oil and honing oil. One layer of tape on the spine. The Blue Gray stone Left side of picture above.
4. Finish the polishing process with a marble plate coated with 3M .03 micron film. This produces the exceptional edge that I look for.
Attachment 340405
And finally, it's off to the stropping process. Here I use A Lucky Strike horse hide strop with linen. On one side of the linen, I have CrOx and the other side is clean. This produces a butter smooth edge that delivers a BBS 2 pass shave .
That's my process! Work's for me and that's all I care about!
Attachment 340406
Shapton Kuromaku 1-2-5-12
Sometimes instead of 12 I use a JNat or a Thuringian
I'm still using the same stuff I started out with. Norton 1-4-8, 6x2 coticule and ChromOx pasted balsa. I used to hone for one online retailer and one brick and mortar place. I've had my eye on other rocks but I'm happy with my edges and still figure I'm the weakest link in my set up.
The natural progression I prefer when time permits (takes about an hour-hour and a half)
Bevel set:
Washita: roughed on one side with 180 SIC, burnished on the other with 600 W/D
Mid range:
Hard ark: burnished on 1k W/D. Mine is block mounted and is an heirloom so I leave it that way.
Finish:
Trans or black: roughed on one side with 400 SIC, burnished on the other with 2k W/D
I may vary the grits of the powder and W/D. This is just the most recent I recorded which works quite well. As Arks are slow it involves a lot of laps; 1000-2000 or more depending mainly on if I've shortened the bevel set with a DMT or low grit synth.
It starts with half X laps, down and back in sets of 10 on alternating sides on the roughed side of the stone for 10 to 15 sets maybe 20 to 30 if needed then decreasing to sets of 5 then 3 then 1 for 10 to 15 sets each. Then switch to traditional Xs for maybe 50. Honestly I usually don't do a very accurate count but stop when the edge looks good for that part of the process. Repeat this on the burnished side.
Starting out I use moderate pressure but working toward the end of the progression lightening the pressure also using lighter pressure up the sides/stones until the final side which is weight of the blade only.
In between sides strop on canvas and CrOx pasted cloth or cardboard.
Lubricant varies but currently I have been using Smith's Solution diluting out to plain water as I go.
As I say, it is not quick but it is a good escape and as I palm hold the stones the down and back half Xs go fairly quickly; there are just a lot of them. I like it as I lose myself in my thoughts in the process.
Ending of course with a thorough stropping which starts with flax linen, then cotton canvas, suede side cow hide, smooth side boar hide.
This produces an edge that gives an acceptable one pass shave and BBS 2 pass.
Lately, I've been on a "like 'Grandpa' used to do it" kick. So it's been a broken-in fine India for chips and bevel-setting, followed by the roughened side of a translucent Ark, and ending with the smoothed side of the same trans Ark, all used with Sharpening Supplies "food grade quality" mineral oil. This may or may not be followed by a small, Solingen red-pasted hanging strop pulled taut (maybe a 'French Grandpa' in this case) as determined as needed by the first pass of an initial shave off the stones and plain leather.
For touch-ups, it's been a small bout coticule used with baby oil.
I have in the past shaved with a 1k synth edge to prove to myself that the bevel was set properly.
I followed your method exactly.
I have one side of my Washita 180 sic, the other side is 600 w/d.
I did 30 x sets of 10 half strokes with Smiths, then lightened the pressure for 15 sets of 5 x half strokes and finally diluted the smiths by adding water for 50 x very light X strokes. I was only working the 180 sic side
I had killed the bevel good a proper before starting so this was a complete bevel set on the Washita.
The bevel felt and looked good but I wanted to be sure. So I shaved with it.
I have never set a bevel on a washita before, it took a long time and it needed testing.
I stropped the razor 40 on herringbone cotton and 40 on buffalo which is fast then 20 on a leather stop pasted with Cro Ox.
I washed my face with soap and water, lathered up with WSP Mahogany and went for it.
The first pass was not comfortable but not agony. The second pass felt pretty good, the 3 pass was nice and the 4th pass was actually excellent.
My face is BBS but my neck although very close isn't totally BBS but I'm not unhappy, it's about the usual if I'm not going out. I certainly couldn't shave again with something else today.
I haven't started on the 600 side of the Washita yet, that's tomorrows mission. I hope to finish the razor tomorrow but I'm not in a huge rush, I might even shave with it after each side/stone to see how it feels as i progress.
All in all, your method works well for me so far and I have to say I'm impressed with the Washita bevel, slow but certainly as good as a 1k synth bevel.
Nice one Paul :bow
Before Stropping
Attachment 340485
Yeah, if I can shave with a 1k edge I know I have a good bevel.
Haven't tried honing on arks, but I want to do that eventually.
Right now I would really prefer a fast, splash and go setup for when I have few minutes to hone.
Thanks for sharing your current setup guys.
I felt the same way about my synths.
My Nortons are great stones but I wasn't a fan of soaking them before I could begin, when the honing mood takes me i just want to get going.
I already had a Naniwa 12K Super Stone and i liked that it was splash and go so I bought a 1K - 3K - 8K as well so now I have a full Naniwa SS progression and because their all just splash & go I can go for it at a moments notice.
I still give them 30 seconds under the tap with a 400 diamond plate to get a good fresh surface before each session, well I usually do it after I finish so I'm ready for next time actually.
Even as he was reading the insidious HAD reared it's ugly head.
I've just finished the 600 side of my Washita, again I followed your method exactly.
30 x sets of 10 half strokes with Smiths, then lightened the pressure for 15 sets of 5 x half strokes and finally diluted the smiths by adding water for 50 x very light X strokes same as yesterday.
I'm not in a hurry to finish this razor so I will leave it for today and shave with it this afternoon. I am really interested to feel the difference between yesterdays Washita bevel shave and today's 600 w/d side of the Washita.
I stropped it 40 herringbone cotton and 40 buffalo and 20 Cro Ox.
Attachment 340513
Tomorrow I will do the next step up which will be the Hard/Med Ark at 1K w/d
Well, I just had a shave with my 600 Washita edge.
I remember one of the restoration and honing geniuses here telling me that a Washita was very versatile and could get pretty high grit equivalents in the right hands.
Mine are definitely not the right hands but that Washita 600 shave was certainly not what i expected.
Not 8K for sure, more than 4K, maybe 5. I have shaved with all my edges from 1K up to see what they felt like so I know what 4k feels like and this was better.
I am really looking forward to tomorrow when I use the 1k Hard/Med Ark.
I have only used the Washita so far and have two more Arks for a total of 3 sides to go still, if my edge feels like this already, my final Trans edge should be atom splitting I hope.
You're a brave man Steve. I have done the 1k challenge and I get the point but that was enough experimenting for me. I have shaved off of 8k many times and done correctly it can shave pretty nicely but not much lower than that.
That is definitely interesting test though
Thanks Paul, That Washita gave me a shave I could live with without too much trouble if that was all I had.
The hinge on that Kinfolks that I am using as my test razor has a really loose hinge, I've cut myself twice just taping the spine.
I did go at the pin with my 1oz ball pein hammer and it worked but I honed it again and a few minutes later it was loose again.
I guess I will have to order some rod and washers then try to re pin it. It can't be that hard, you and just about all the other experienced guys do it so it's high time I rounded off my education a little bit.
You know, it just occured to me.
If i got such a decent edge off of that Washita, maybe 5k or so, what can a hard/med do.
I wouldn't want my edge to go backwards, that would of course be counter productive and sad.
I can't help wondering whether i should go straight to a Trans and skip the medium, any thoughts?
OK, My Ark edge razor is done.
Because my 600 Washita edge was so decent I decided in my infinite wisdom to skip the Hard/Medium Ark.
Three reasons for that decision really.
The Washita edge was at least 4k maybe a bit more and i was worried that a Hard/Med might not be able to improve it and might even degrade it.
I only got a Washita and a Trans to start and I was advised at the time that I didn't need more if I got a decent edge off the Washita (to build on I guess).
I wanted to make the Ark method, sort of mine.
Anyway I did 10 x 10 half strokes with smiths on the 400 side of my Tans then lightened the pressure for 10x sets of 5. I then diluted the smiths with water for 50 light Xstrokes.
I then repeated the above on the 2k side except I did very light strokes, very light for the entire time and only used plain water.
I'm looking forward to shaving this afternoon, if it's the business i have another razor (a Sheffield) that needs some love so I will put an Ark edge on that too but maybe try something like glycerin or mineral oil instead to see if it makes a difference.
Finished Ark Edge Stropped 40 on cotton, 40 on leather and 30 on Cro Ox, would like to try with out CroOx next time maybe.
Attachment 340532
Thanks for your advice Paul.
My experience has been that an Ark finisher ("true hard," translucent, hard black, black translucent) will leave a coarser edge in a dedicated progression off Washitas or soft Arkansas stones. The higher claims for Ark finishers are generally off an extended synth progression, where I suppose they have a calming, tempering, burnishing effect rather than a sharpening effect from a dedicated progression. But hey, I'll be happy to be proven wrong. Oil is the only way I've used them.
I am a firm believer that a method works well when you find your own nuances. Plus your stones are different from mine. I have heard great things about the Norton #1 while mine is a multicolored swirl and much smaller. You can probably reliably skip by the mid range with what you are able to do with that larger Norton. Hope you find the best way to make it your own Steve.
Bronto, I can't speak to the specifics of your experience but this method has worked quite well for me, especially with Smith's and water dilution. Norton honing oil with WD-40 dilution also works well.
I got crickets when I posted about this method before but all I can say is, "try it." I shaved with one I did this way this morning and it was crisp but still as smooth as silk.
I just shaved with my new Ark edge, what can I say. It was laser sharp, make sure you can hear the wife watching telly downstairs so she won't come in and talk kind of sharp.
Final words, sharp, damn sharp, I don't know how much i like the feel yet, I need a few more shaves with it. I might even give it a couple of laps on a Coticle to see what that does. Stupid sharp and buttery smooth, I would like that a lot.
Sorry, I haven't followed the most recent posts leading up to the current discussion. I'm not saying that a Washita to finishing Ark or a dedicated Ark progression doesn't lead to a decent shaving edge, it does; but from my experience, that edge is not as sharp or close as is could be, although it is smooth. In the current case, the finishing Ark was followed by crox leading to perceived sharpness during the shave, so it appears to be crox that is contributing to this sensation, not the Arkansas stone. Following the paste with a coticule or a return to the same Ark finishing stone for a few passes may impart smoothness to the perceived sharpness, resulting in a hybrid of the two.
In my recent case ("like 'Grandpa' used to shave" above), I followed a fine India to translucent Ark progression with a red-pasted strop to get that sharpness and closeness. If I would subsequently return to the trans Ark or a coticule used with oil, that again would create a hybrid between the pasted edge and the smoothness imparted by the natural stone. This, I think, is similar to an extended synth water-stone progression where the edge can be "calmed" by returning to a natural, trans Ark or coticule at the end, or what I was referring to in my last post.
Coticule honers often take an edge that has been made very sharp with synthetics to a coticule to make the edge more comfortable. I’m still trying to get my head around how using a coti “softens” the edge without losing sharpness.
Science of Sharp talks about the difference between an edge being sharp and it being keen. I have read that several times and am still trying to get my head around that distinction as well.
At any rate, I like my coti edges very much and only go back to my synths to reset a bevel or restore an abused blade. I still finish with a coticule after 8k Norton and follow up with a polisher.
I don't know the science behind it and I have no research based evidence, only observation to go by. I do use the hard Arks, particularly a black to finish after synth progressions and it is probably my favorite edge after synths with the possible exception of a thuri depending on the steel. However, the Ark progression is smoother yet still very keen. The biggest caveat is that there is a noteworthy investment of time to get it right. For a production schedule it would not be practical but if you are one who likes meditative repetitive motion/activity it is cathartic. Personally I prefer it to Ark finish only but as we all know each natural stone is different as are the hands of the honer who works them.
I took my new super sharp Ark edge that i finished and shaved with yesterday and gave it 10 laps on a Coticule with plain water before I shaved today.
It's still stupid sharp but also smooth and lovely to shave with :rock:
I will say that my experience with a Coti is that it needs the strop in a big way so it got 60 on cotton and 100 on leather which made it super keen again and i also adjust the razor angle when I use a Coti edge. I don't know if it's steep or shallow, never understood really but I hold the spine closer to my face than with other edges.