Hello everyone. Its been awhile since i have posted. I was wondering if anyone has tried the new Escher-thurigen hones offered by Escher Water Hone - Thuringian Sharpening Stone . If so, how do they compare with the older Eschers?
Regards,
Jim E.
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Hello everyone. Its been awhile since i have posted. I was wondering if anyone has tried the new Escher-thurigen hones offered by Escher Water Hone - Thuringian Sharpening Stone . If so, how do they compare with the older Eschers?
Regards,
Jim E.
Wow, thanks for sharing the link. If the stones are good quality, those seem like some very good prices. I'd also love to hear if anyone knows anything about them.
I thought this was interesting and somewhat amusing.
[QUOTE][Its extraordinary fineness and hardness is not met by any other natural stone — 10,000 to 12,000 grit. /QUOTE]
I can think of a number of people who would disagree with that statement.
I am curious about this statement in his description,"The Escher is NOT recommended as a final hone if you have used the natural Belgian garnet stone in advance. We are often asked about this combination use and can, at best, offer the advice that Belgian hones produce an edge without burrs, therefore that edge is already drawn to a more ideal finish, not gaining any advantage using the Escher".Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL
I imagine a lot of knowledgeable people would disagree with that?
Jimmy, I do disagree with those statements myself. I do own a old Escher and also own the blue and yellow belgian coticules. i was asking if anyone has knowledge of these hones so that I could recommend one to a friend on a budget. That is if they do indeed hold up to being similar in quality as the old Eschers.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyH-AD
Jim
With so much incorrect and misleading information by the seller, I would not be willing to be gambling with my money. There are old blocks of thuringian stones that are being cut into hones these days, but Kees and others who sell such honed occasionally have noted that often there are inclusions and they need to inspect each stone individually and return quite a few.
As far as the fineness as with any natural stone it depends on the particular piece, but the consensus seems to be that the new ones are not quite as fine as the old ones. Whether it's good for your friend, or not, only he can tell and only after he tries it.
Oh these are NOT Escher, just as if make a coffee it's not Starbucks.
Gugi, You have a very valid point. Looking on fleabay now to see if there are any decent hones out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Jim E.
I also have old Eschers in Blue, Blue Grey and Light Green. I think the one labeled light green is a yellow green but whatever....... I have a Thuringan that is a Mueller's and it is a good stone. Not as good as the old ones but good. Don has a couple of vintage Eschers in the classifieds. Not for someone on a budget but they are there.
Based on my experience I also disagree with the statement but I haven't been at it long enough to be confident in my assessment. I have gone to a Blue Grey Escher after a Coticule with many razors and have had good results.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptMdnght
There was some discussion here about these a little while ago.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...9-eschers.html
James.
I have the $130 hone that you refer to in the advertisment.
It comes from this man in Germany.
MST - Müller Schleiftechnik
You need to select "Neue Produkte" on the left of the home page.
MST however only sell to agents and not direct to the public.
First let me say it is the best finishing hone I have ever used. It imparts a sharper edge than a yellow coticule and a much smoother edge. It works in and around the 10,000 to 14,000 grit level whilst a yellow coticule in my experience works in and around the 6000 to 10000 grit level, depending on with or without slurry etc.,
I totally disagree with the agents comments about not using it to follow a coticule.
This is exactly what I do. I bought it and tried it after using my coticue and was blown away with just how good it is. After you have finished with the coticule, the slurry on the Escher turns dark with the extra polishing this hone imparts. The hone with just water adds another level of polish.
I don't know what you mean by old eschers. This stone has been in the ground for centuries, how old do you want it to be. Just because something was mined fifty years ago doesn't make it better. Why should it?
As to color, it sounds from the descriptions on the internet sites that it varies from green to blue gray.
Mine, the larger hone is lightish green and the slurry is creamy green. It is softer than a coticule and a very dense material. It gives great feedback in use.
Anyway, you now know from somebody who actually owns and uses one that it is fantastic. It is also very reasonable in terms of price. They won't be around long it would appear if you believe what MST say on their web site. Anyway, mine is a keeper as they say. It doesn't however replace the yellow Coticule, it takes off from where the coticule finishes.
The other thing, is that many are truly satisfied with a coticule followed by chromium oxide and then a strop. In fact I find that process to be perfectly adequate. So you could say that the escher is totally unnecessary. For me however it is another level of refinement before hitting the chromium oxide. But boy the edges are a shiny mirror finish and feel no sharper but oh so smooth.
Yes age does matter because the rock the eschers are mined from come from a vein and as the vein is played out the quality of the material begins to degrade so the older stuff is better. Same as the Japanese stones mined many years ago which are better than what is being produced today.
Personally, I have a coticule and a vintage escher and I find the two to be about equal. There are some razors that seem to prefer one over the other but I would never use one then the other. My coticule is definitely at about a 12K. The blue belgian is closer to 6k
Japanese mines have been closed for 40+ years, AFAIK, at this point in time there are no talks of reopening any of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
Many of us have used these stones. I've had close to 10 thuringian stones (Including Mueler) and I've used every single one of them. There are differences and I would say that I personally prefer my vintage Eschers (meaning the only thing that it means - mined and selected by Escher & Co), as I feel they are a bit finer.Quote:
Originally Posted by English
Indeed when a stone is being mined is irrelevant to how it cuts, yet whether you've depleted the best vein 60 years ago, or you're yet to discover it can be debated ad infinitum with little gain.
My understanding is that the mines are currently defunct and the stones come from blocks which were mined over 50 years ago and are now only being cut to smaller pieces. Again it this is true, whether those blocks were not cut back then because they were of lesser quality, or just because the process from mining to selling is actually a whole pipeline, that can be a whole other fruitless discussion.
Based on my very limited experience (10 or so coticules and as many thuringians) and my conversations with other members the only definitive test is actually trying out the stone. I am not going to be speculating on grits as the only fixed grit stones I've used are DMTEF and Norton 4/8k, but I very much like the edge off a coticule and the one off an escher is comparable and sometimes I may like it silghtly better. However I am limited not by the stones but by my honing skills and I am pretty certain the same is true for most people here.
James,Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Thanks for that link. The quest continues it seems :-)
Jim E.
Very strange... I did a search on escher stones to purchase and this vendor showed up in 3 of the searches, including this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptMdnght
I placed an order online, the site responds that my transaction has been completed and they sent a receipt to my email... I waited about 2 minutes, no email, so I tried to print the invoice screen using their link and the screen disappeared. I called the number, expecting to get an answering machine and woke a man up. I had to ask three times if it was "Timber Tools" and he finally said "What... oh yeah this is Timber Tools."
I've already called my bank to report the incident and potential ??? information gathering ??? Thank goodness the account is not linked to any important source of funds.
It may be nothing, but IMHO the flags are there for a potential scam.
For what it's worth, I've known Gary from TimberTools for many years and he knows - through long experience - both belgian stones and eschers. On his site he differentiates between higher grade belgians and lower grade belgians. This is key, in my opinion, to understanding what he's saying about not following a high grade belgian with an escher. There is, I have found, a big difference between standard grade coticules and Select grade. I don't know if it's true about all of the newly named coticules from particular veins but there are differences between standard grade and select grade that go beyond cosmetics. I'd like to hear Gary weigh in on in this as, like me, he's handled hundreds of coticules.
I also have a number of eschers in my study collection ranging from the blue-green ones to the yellow-green. I don't think an escher following a Select coticule will get you anything measurable in the way of results on your face. The big difference, as I see it, is the difference between quartz crystals and garnet crystals. The structure at the micro level shows up as differences at the macro level. Tiny cleaved corners off of a rhombic dodecahedral garnet (nothing cleaves like a garnet!) in a slurry will give a smoother cutting edge than hexagonal, long c-axis quartz crystals. That's what I've found.
The differences we're talking about here are probably overshadowed though by factors like differences in the wiriness of your beard and shave preparation. A quality escher and a quality coticule are excellent finishers when used correctly.
To make matters a bit more complicated, I find that Shaptons in the 16k to 30k range will finish a razor off even better! I know that may sound like heresy to some but let me assure you I have not lost my love of natural stones and still use a combo coticule on my razor and it's still in my medicine cabinet and used on my razor every week. However, when playing with a new razor, I rehab with the Shaptons because it's quick, organized, and gives me consistent and reliable results every time.
Great posting Gugi. I think there's another factor at play as well which is the steel and its heat treat. We're not all using the same razors and many are reporting different results. I don't doubt that at all! You mention the differences to be had by honing practice as well and that's also a huge factor in getting the best results possible from any stone on any particular face.
SkyDiver, that webpage is a scam imo but not in the way you think. They do really sell the stones they offer, but they're not original Eschers. Fore more info just read all the posts in this thread and the threads linked.
Howard, I'm pretty sure with lower grade Belgians they mean BBWs, less garnets of bigger size.
Well the transaction went through and the "Original Thuringer Wasserabziehstein - Beste Qualitat" arrived today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piet
I agree, in that I am not impressed with the quality for the price, but I have not tried it yet either. Only one side is smooth and the other has 3 ridged steps.
IME it is not uncommon for Eschers, Thuringans to have a rough hewn bottom side. Lap the smooth side and give it a go. You might be pleased. :gl:Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyDiver
Yes, every single escher hone I've had has had one uneven side, covered by the label. Makes perfect sense too, there is no need to invest any effort to lap yet another side as it doesn't give any advantage other than a higher manufacturing cost. And it's covered by a label which many people like to keep. The labels also wrap a little bit around the sides, so if you don't want to get rid of those little pieces of paper the sides are also pretty useless no matter how well they're finished (too lazy to go check on mine at the moment).
So, just use the hone on the flat side (I always check that it's flat since it costs almost nothing to do and the benefits are big) and don't worry about the other ones.
Spend enough time to learn how to use it well and then you'll know whether it was worth the money or not.
I agree about the another side of the stone.
Only you have to worry about quality of the stone.
Lately i even don't care about shape of the honing stone. i hone on everything which will fit in my palm.
gl
The only sticker was on the wrapper and not on the stone. I figured just one flat side is all that is 'needed'. I should be getting my DMT fine/coarse bench stone today, so I'll lap it and give it a try.
It seems I have become a 'rock collector' with what I believe to be a good start... Norton Waterstone starter kit, 8x3 select coticule, 8x3 BBW, 8x3 Translucent Arkansas, now this 5x1.5 Escher/Thuringan, with the fine/coarse DMT bench stone coming, along with two universal bench stone holders.
I have a number of other stones I've used on knives for decades, but the above listed I bought just for razors.
I'm still quite the 'puppy' when it comes to razor honing, and I notice immediately when I have good results verses poor results. I keep getting reminded that I need to know when it is time to go to the next step before actually moving to the next step...
This 'knowing when' to move on is one reason I like the Dilucot method, as the next step is to continue thinning the slurry working toward just water.