I have full set of naniwas i have been using norton set up before hand. I no nortons are fairly quik cutters my question is is naniwa faster or slower cutter than nortons.
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I have full set of naniwas i have been using norton set up before hand. I no nortons are fairly quik cutters my question is is naniwa faster or slower cutter than nortons.
Hi Gary. I am new to honing but I either read or someone told me via PM the Naniwa stones are pretty fast cutting. Congrats on getting a full set, I only have the 12K Naniwa.
i have a feeling they are very fast cutters when iused them i could see metal loading up fairly quikley. when the nortons where realy on here alot there was some good recomendations on how many laps worked realy well with out over honing. Be interesting if some one with good experiance with the new naniwa could post some recomendations how best results with say the 5k/8k 5k/8k may be similar to 4k/8k but i read differant hones that have same like for like grit ratings may vary from say shaptons nortons naniwas etc. may be lynn could post on that one as he has tryed and tested these naniwas .Quote:
Originally Posted by superbleu
Right off the top of my head I think that Lynn and Utopian would be the most experienced with them. I know that both have said that they like them.
My approach to the Shapton pro 5 and 8 was to use the pyramid just as I do with the Nortons. How many pyramids (as described in the SRP wiki here) depended on the condition of the edge I was working on, the composition of the steel and whatever other variables there are in honing razors.
Whenever I finally break down and get some of my own Naniwas I will play around with them until I get to know them. That is what I have had to do with all of the stones that I have tried. I'm still figuring some of them out like the Tam '0 Shanter and the Dalmore Blue for example.
I have almost the full set: 220, 400, 1k, 3k, 5k, 8k, 10k, and 12k. I'm still working on getting the 800 and the 2k.
I really like the Naniwas. They have wonderful feedback. I think they cut faster than the Nortons, feel softer than the Nortons, and generally make me happier than the Nortons. I especially like the 1k as a bevel setter. I became enamored with the 1k the very first time I used it.
I played with 5k/8k pyramids but did not find any real benefit to it. I asked Lynn if he ever does pyramids with the Naniwas and he said he did. I didn't press him for a full explanation so I don't know how often he does it or what ratios he uses.
If you were to compare the amount of metal removal by the Naniwa 8k to the Norton 8k, you might have a better sense of why the pyramid might not be as necessary, at least in my opinion. I think it has to do with the fact that the higher grit Naniwas are still cutting so much steel. Ten strokes on the Naniwa 8k shows quite a bit of swarf on the hone. Even the 12k shows traces. They're cutting and polishing very quickly and efficiently.
Once the bevel is set at 1k, I generally do 20 to 30 strokes on the 3k, 20 to 30 on the 5k, and 10 to 15 strokes on each of the 8k, 10k, and 12k hones. I usually finish with a Japanese Asagi or Namito, or both, but the edge off of the 12k is just fine.
I'm +1n with Utopian. I too have the full set of Naniwa's and Norton's. I even have a few old Norton Oil stones. The Naniwa's are faster cutters than the Norton's. I'd say do 10 - 15 laps on the Naniwa, and test. As Ron said, you need more lapps to set the bevel, then I do 10 -15. I finish on a Nakayama, or Escher. Max uses Naniwa's almost exclusively now. He does quite a bit of resto, and has a good deal of experience with them...
Not that it would be needed for straights, but I don't see anyone with the 150 :eek: HAHA Love that brick, much better that the DMT plate for removing metal FAST, and not leaving grand canyans to grind out later.
I used Naniwa stones up to 10k and really like em, to soft I think for kitchen knives with hard steel, till you get used to em. Great for straights though :D
I've been eyeing these up for a while now and you guys convinced me. I'm specifically looking for a bevel cutter (just don't have the money in these chastened times to get anywhere near a full set) so am leaning towards the 1k. Would the 3k perform this function as well? I'd be going on to a fairly fast cutting coticule with slurry straight from one or the other and wonder if the jump from the 1k may be greater than I need. Basically, I can only afford one at the moment and would appreciate your recommendations.
I was realy impressed with the 1k it does'nt feel coarse when in use does'nt soak up water and to my surprismant it realy cuts a bevel quiker than 1k norton and i'd say as good as 1200dmt or even quiker exallant bevel setter as for the rest 3k etc i 'm sure like you all say these hones are decieveing and cut fast but feel smooth like there not doing any thing but i can see metal particules apear with in a thew laps i'm getting to like them my self now i was thinking could i use coti after 12k or even my bbw slurry then coti water after 12k as i did after my 8k norton and it worked realy well adding that finess and natural smoothness?Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I think the 1k would set the bevel faster, but the 3k is a noticable step up from the 1k. So it would take a bit longer to set the bevel but would clean up faster if your jumping straight to the coti.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanII
I think the 3k Shapton GS is alot smoother on the edge than the 4k norton. I never really liked the 4k norton and never really use it, just the 8k side :p
I like the 4k Norton. As Randy told me a long time ago you can set a bevel on the 4k if the edge is in good shape to begin with. As far as the stone drying up quickly I keep it in water all of the time. I use the single grit Nortons. If you're going to keep the stone in water all of the time you need to change the water every couple of days or it gets slimy.
I will probably get the Naniwas .... for the same reason Hillary climbed Everest, because they are there .... but every time I get another stone or group of them I ask myself what I am going to do with all of these other rocks that are sitting in the cabinet. :gaah:
The 220 Norton is probably the only stone in the set that might be more aggressive than the Naniwa 220. The Naniwa 220 is still agressive, but doesn't quite tear up the steel like the Norton. The rest of the Naniwa rotation are actually very fast cutters and as has been noted give very good feedback. The soft feel is amazing to me still. I think these stones are the only stones out there actually made for straight razors (doubt it, but they are perfect for them). The other thing that I like is that when I am using a stone like the Naniwa Super 1K to set a bevel, it is really cutting, but doesn't seem to flatten out the spine alot. Can't explain this.
The pyramid will actually work with either the 5K/8K or the 3K/8K in the Naniwas. Once the bevel is set on a razor, you can do a pyramid starting at either 5 or 7 and go from there. So that means 7 strokes on the 5K and 7 on the 8K, then 5-5, 3-3, 1-2, 1-5 and then go to the 12K. If you are dealing with a razor in fair shape and it doesn't need a re-do on the bevel, you can try a pyramid starting at 10 or 15 strokes and go from there.
Have fun,
Lynn
I like the 4k and 8k probably because i get good edge every time when i first used n 4k i did'nt like it after a realy good lapping and i mean good lapping 4k felt hell of a lot smoother and less grainy. The beauty about these naniwas is i spray a puddle of water on the hone and thats it. The stand is great and for any one that likes holding there hones whilst honing like i do they are very light and easy to hold and hone away.
Two words, Jimmy...Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Bomb shelter!
I agree about the 220 Norton/Naniwa comparison. I think the reason that the Norton works better is because it is so soft, maybe even too soft, that the slurry ends up forming sort of a paste. Because it is constantly releasing grit, it is also constantly refreshing its surface. The Naniwa 220 is relatively hard and seems to load up quickly. It cuts great right after lapping it but it doesn't continue to cut the way the Norton does. I try to move up to the 400 as quickly as possible after the 220.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
Interesting thought. I find the Norton 220 actually to be a hard stone, but a very granular stone with accounts for the breakdown and slurry formation. The Naniwa Super 220 (Resin Bond) and even the Shapton Glass 220 (Ceramic) function in a very similar manner and as indicated load up quickly. I usually try to go to the 1K after the 220.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Lynn
"Interesting thought," code for wtf are you talking about?:) I have a difficult time with describing any hone as hard or soft, and it really doesn't make sense to do so. Granular is a much better description for the Norton.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
I go to the 400 just because it gets me away from the loaded 220 faster. I of course only use either of those hones on blades that have significant damage. The real goal is to get to that fantastic Naniwa 1k as quickly as possible for the bevel setting.
DC, isnt the naniwa 150 the Omaru, not the superstones?
As one of our members says........Whatever...........:roflmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I agree with you on the description of a hone as hard. When I try to describe that I generally am talking about the feel of the hone against the razor. Some people describe this as feedback. There is nothing wrong with going to the 400. Some people use every hone in the rotation. I always feel that if something works for you and it's consistent, stick with it.
Have fun,
Lynn
My progression at the moment is 1k naniwa, bbw slurry , bbw water, coti slurry, coti water, 12k naniwa, cro ox on felt
From what some of you guys have said, am i missing something about the order i should be using them? The bbw is that in the right place.
I never thought to go back to bbw and coti after the 12k.
Is the jump from a 1k to a bbw slurry too much of a jump?
@the moment the only thing i need to hone is a bismarck full hollow round point which is my main shaver(wont have other blades ready for a few days.)
But one problem i am having with this progression is it doesnt seem to take a huge bevel, im taping the spine because of gold on the spine but its only one layer of electrical tape which shouldnt affect the angle too much.
I think that my progression might be too much, could be too many passes on the other stones after the naniwa 1k.
Anyway im a noob but my opinons on the naniwa are that they are great for what they are and the price they come at, my only criticism would be how long they may last. (does their softness mean they disappear quicker with lapping?)
As far as functionality for people who only have a few hones they seem to bookend the naturals very well.
+1 on the fast Cuting also, my 12k seems to accumulate nearly as much swarf as my 1k, i thought that was normal.
Best regards,
Greg
Hi Greg,Quote:
Originally Posted by GregJDS
I would be interested if you tried your progression without the water on the bbw and coticule.
After the 1K, do enough strokes on the bbw with slurry to shave your forearm hair and then do 10-15 strokes on the Coticule with slurry followed by 10 strokes on the Naniwa Super 12K. Then 10 strokes on the chromium oxide, strop and test.
Thanks,
Lynn
To many lines to remember what any one naniwa came from :p It's a dence grey brick and it's not overly thursty. Bugger saves me tons of time when fixing abused hard steel knives :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Ben325e
I'm still pretty new to these as I only got them a few days ago (5,8,12).
I'm curious about people's experience w/ the 12k soaking up a lot of water--mine seems very thirsty.
I'm also wondering how often they need to be lapped--I lapped them flat when I got them & then did most of my razors. They were wet for over an hour. I just checked them today & they need to be lapped again. Do they sort of even out after some use or did I leave them wet for too long? I just hope I didn't damage them--they look fine; just a little bit dished. Nothing my D8C couldn't remedy.
EDIT: re-lapped them--they seem fine, but I'm still curious.
I have just got full set and i lapped them on same as you dmtc as for soaking up water on 12k and mine did'nt i don't hone right to the end of the hone i finish my stroke about a good inch or two from edge keep a puddle of water on my surface even my 1k did'nt soak up water. They sy don't soak them but i just soak mine or run water over them for two minutes i think it s better.the 12k only needs 10 to 20 strokes there no way you could of dished it at that many strokes i gave mine a serious lapping probably to much may be after laping they could be porous for a little while my wern't especial compared to nortons they are porous especialy 1k. hope this helps i'm just going to check my 12k see how it is now it has dryed and rested.Quote:
Originally Posted by PA23-250
I've never soaked mine--just spashed some water on top & that's it. Interestingly, if I lightly move a finger across the top (on the 12k), I can almost feel a kind of gritty start & stop--the 5k is butter smooth wet or dry & the 8k is almost as smooth. I felt this when honing too--I figured it was just a technique thing (needing even less pressure)--now I'm not so sure.
One other thing: do any of your hones have a sort of speckled look to them after lapping? My 12k is the most speckled--could these "things" be expanding @ a different rate than the rest of the hone & causing the bumpiness? I'm really hoping I didn't get a defective one.
Right i can reply on that yes my 12k is speckled i have one big speckle plus loads of little speckles on most of my hones. Mine feel smooth with my finger. Surprisingly the 1k feels rather smooth for 1k but cuts realy quik. i noticed my 5k feels realy smooth smoother than my 8k and the 12k feels smooth but not as smooth as i would of thought not as smooth as my 8k norton and like you say i've noticed at first when honing on 12k the blade kind of stuck or sucked to the hone like a greasy sticky feeling but now i have used more often they seem fine. Thats the gritty start and stop feeling you are describing and same as you i find 5k smooth and 8k almost as smooth.Quote:
Originally Posted by PA23-250
I currently have the 1k and 12k, and today ordered the 3,5 and 8k stones. My 12k is speckled mostly down the center but feels smooth to the touch. It also tends to use more water than any other stone I currently have, but the finish it leaves is incredibly smooth and polished. I also feel some drag when using this stone but it seems to be a good feedback to tell me where I am in the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by PA23-250
Hope this helps.
Ray
I agree with rayman i get drag on the 12k i've just honed on mine to night. They are nice stones to use and its great to just sray and hone rather than soaking like my nortons.
Sounds like mine might just need a bit more lapping to "even out". My initial attempts @ honing with it resulted in sub-par edges. I tried again, but haven't test-shaved yet. Maybe I'm just still used to the Belgians (more forgiving).
One thing I'll try next time is, instead of a quick lapping after honing (to clear swarf), I'll get the stones wet (the 12k might be better to run it under the faucet for a minute owing to its thirstiness) and quick-lap before honing.
Hopefully I'll figure this out before long & get whisker-wiping edges again!
My brand new Naniwas did get a speckled look after lapping. I got 1k/5k/8k/12k from SRD. (Haven't touched the 1K yet.)
I lapped each of them twice with a DMT8C 325. I was not able to finish the 2nd lapping on the 8k and 12k. Each has a bit of pencil line in one or two corners that won't go away even after 30+ minutes of lapping! I think the DMT might be getting loaded up or otherwise dulled. I tried cleaning it with a stiff brush under running water but that didn't help. This concerns me because if the DMT is loaded up I may have transferred coarser grit to finer hone and may need to do this all over again!
I am using the stones as is and just avoiding the far corners -- less than half inch of pencil line.
Haven't yet shave-tested the razor I honed.
Same thoughts here. I just honed as-is & didn't go to the last 10 mm or so. Could be that. Or could be they actually do need to be lapped more in the beginning, despite what Naniwa says. The first time I used them was right after the initial lapping and after drying, they definitely needed more lapping the next day. In any case, I'm very interested to try a shave-test tomorrow.Quote:
I lapped each of them twice with a DMT8C 325. I was not able to finish the 2nd lapping on the 8k and 12k. Each has a bit of pencil line in one or two corners that won't go away even after 30+ minutes of lapping! I think the DMT might be getting loaded up or otherwise dulled. I tried cleaning it with a stiff brush under running water but that didn't help. This concerns me because if the DMT is loaded up I may have transferred coarser grit to finer hone and may need to do this all over again!
I found the corners took some shifting with my dmtc its not that old but did make me wonder so i used 600 wet and dry then used my dmtc to lap again and rounded corners of. i lay my hone on piece of glas and so long as it does rock around by pressing on corners it got to be flatt i must of lapped mine at least 4 times. I'm also use to the bbw/coti i love honing on those two i don't think you can beat the feeling and results they give great smoothness but yoy will find working on 5k/8k first will give sharpness then followed by 12 i tryed bbw s coti w and gives a great edge. When i used naniwas on tere own i did'nt get that wow even thought they are new. when i first touched a razor up with blue then yellow i thought these a exallant i think they take some beating.
Okay: did a test shave w/ the Wapi--honing on the 12k yesterday felt much better, probably because I gave it a quick lapping right before honing when it was wet. (I'm wondering about the dimensional stability of this thing.) It seems to be (slowly) calming down.
Very close. Not quite there yet. I think 3-5 light passes on the 12k followed by a little crox stropping should do it.
My problem-child-of-a-TI: nowhere near, despite having a bevel that looks like a mirror. Maybe the bevel is not thin enough @ the tip & it needs more "disciplining" on the D8E first?
I have just done 25 coti light slurry then 30 plain water no paste and very smooth this was after 12k i have to say i like my belgiums !
A little update to my 12k issues:
The 5 & 8k were great, but I was really confused why my 12k was acting up. I called SRD, ended up talking w/ both Don & Lynn (great guys, both of them), & Lynn confirmed that this was not normal behavior. A little water soaking in is normal (my 5,8k do this), but not eating water like my 12k was doing. (If I sprayed it like my others, instead of the water staying on the surface, it was gone instantly.) And it stayed wet for 18+ hours after honing because of all the water it soaked up. For comparison, my 5/8k are bone dry within 30 min after honing, which is normal behavior for these.
Long story short, they had me send it back & exchanged it for a new one (it's coming w/ more goodies I subsequently ordered :)) And I even got a Naniwa honing tutorial from the man himself! :D You could say it worked out well...
I have to say i have found mine don't dry out that quik i will keep an eye on that
I've just soaked my 12k wiped it dry and 30 minutes later still not completly dry i also noticed the 8k and 5k i used two days ago including 12k felt fairly cold they must hold water for a while i'm not sure