Buying a New Set of Hones

I use a 4000/8000 aluminum oxide stone lubricated with oil to sharpen and repair knives, but I can not use this stone to maintain a sharp edge on any straight razor because it is much too rough on them. So, I was wondering about purchasing the following:

JAPANESE WATER STONES SET OF 3 - eBay (item 170365829099 end time Aug-05-09 12:05:10 PDT)

However, I can not find any research on that brand and do not see myself needing to use an 800 on a straight razor except something that has a canyon in it. I was wondering if anyone had used these stones before and any reccomendations for an alternative (under $100 please).

For about $115 on amazon you can get the Norton starter set shipped to you

220/1000 4000/8000 and the lapping stone

This is more than you will actually need to get you shaving sharp razors, or it is a great set to start with should you happen to get bit by the honing bug....

I just double checked and you can almost get the 1k and the 3k/8k Naniwas for that price too so that is another option

Well, those are WAY too coarse for razors. Those would get you from grinding out big ugly chips, up to setting a bevel, but no further.


The 4000 and 8000 you have are MUCH finer, but still not suitable for razors if you've been using them with oil to sharpen knives.

If you want to get set up for razors on the cheap, check amazon for the norton 220/1000 + 4000/8000 + SiC flattening stone combo set. Run you about $115 bucks.

The big one in front looks like my 4000 grit Tojiro.
If it is, its a kitchen knive hone, ceramic,
doesn't like too much getting soaked cause it will get tiny cracks,
but its a good hone.
Its fast, but not too coarse. Good for restos.
Great price.

Maybe someone who can read japanese can confirm.

Would a 1000/4000 norton stone be suitable?

So then I should just the 4000/8000 norton?

The 4000/8000 Norton is about equivalent to the 2500/5000 Shapton or other JIS labeled hones. So no.

I was wondering if I could pair up a 6000 and 4000 stone from this store:

eBay Store – BluewayJapan: Search results for.

If not, would I be able to use the 8000 and 4000, or some other combination of these?

To do things right, you really need 4 levels of hone (many ways to get there)

You need something in the neighborhood of a...

1000 grit to set the bevel

4000 to refine the bevel and begin the honing

8000 to properly hone

10000+ to finish

Many people like to add a stone in the 200-500 range for grinding out large chips, and a strop with a fine paste for finishing, which can be used after your 10000+ stone, or instead of it.

As Lynn used to do, and many others have done, you 'can' shave off of a Norton 8000 grit or equivalent, but the results will not be as good. Likewise, you 'can' set a bevel without ever using a 4000 grit, or you can skip straight from bevel setting to 8000 and just spend a long time on the 8000 (I've done it)

I'm using a DMT D8C (325 grit) for grinding out chips and lapping my other stones, the Shapton Glass hones in 1000, 4000, 8000 and 16000; followed by 0.50 micron chromium oxide paste on a balsa wood bench hone.

Also, it would do you a world of good to stick to either Norton, Shapton or Naniwa stones because most everyone around here uses them, and you'll be able to get more help that way. The same logic applies to using a progression like 1k, 4k, 8k finisher, because if you do anything else, you'll pretty much be on your own.

The other way to go is using natural hones, but that's a whole separate conversation.

Yes sure, King and Naniwa are good. Maybe the Choceras are a bit much. Naniwa Superstones actually.
You can also shave from a 8000 hone and pastes, but its better to get one that is finer.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm guessing that the whole reasoning behind this is that you're concerned about cost.

If that's the case, you probably won't do any better than this set at amazon.

That's the one I was talking about that includes the 220/1000 combo, 4000/8000 combo and a flattening stone. (You will need some sort of flattening stone if you're working on razors anyway) That will get you all the way from repairing major damage up to the minimum you can shave off of.

Follow that up with whatever finisher your budget allows, whether that's a Chinese 12k, Escher, 16k, or just pasted strop.

Another vendor I have found:

Japanese Water Stones

Would any of these stones work out if a set was purchased, perhaps 1200/4000/8000? I will probably just break down and get a norton three stone set, but I'd like to look at some actual japanese whetstones to use as they seem to be of much higher quality.

Once again, you cannot compare Norton numbers to Naniwa or King numbers.
That shop up there seems a bit overpriced.

What I would really strongly suggest, is that you spend a good long time reading posts in this forum.

There have been dozens and dozens of threads on which hones to get and why. Heck, I've started two of them myself.

There are MANY variables to consider.

As Olivia has pointed out, an 8000 grit hone from one manufacturer is not the same as an 8000 from another.

Some stones cut fast enough that you can skip from 1000 to the 8000 range directly. The razor I shaved with today went straight from a Shapton 1000 to the shapton 8000 with nothing in between, and it was one of my best shaves ever. (big point of pride there since I honed it myself, and only started honing very recently)

Some people are perfectly happy to shave off of a Norton 8000 with no finishing.

Some people are really not happy with their edge unless they hone all the way to 30,000 and then follow it up with an ultra-fine diamond paste.

You're not only dealing with all the variances between manufacturers and how they determine grit size, but also personal preference. In the end, there is no easy answer.

I'm curious why you are so stuck on the idea of buying hones from unknown vendors or ebay. The 1200, 4000 and 8000 you just linked to would only cost you about $10 less than the nortons, not give you something coarser for grinding out chips, and not give you a flattening stone which means you'll have to lap the stones with sandpaper. The norton set I linked is NOT a 3 stone set. You get 2 combo stones (like getting 4 stones) AND you get a flattening stone.

If you are just set on Japanese stones, which is fine, then go for it. If you're trying to save a buck, you're going about it the wrong way.



And just for the record, I'm not trying to sell norton stones. I've never owned one. It just sounds to me like you're looking for a bargain, and you don't find bargains by buying unknown stones from unknown vendors. That's called gambling. You might get fantastic stones that do an awesome job, or you might get garbage. Getting something like the norton set, you are not getting the "best" stones, but you're getting "good" stones that are VERY well known. Lynn used to use nothing else, and I don't think anybody around here has more honing experience as Lynn.

Here let me put this the non-PC way that everyone else is dancing around OK!!!!

NEWBS should stay away from EBAY it is that fastest way to waste money you will ever find....

I would Never Ever in a million years recommend any newb to buy any stone off e-bay unless it were a Barbers hone...

Almost every Honemiester on this Forum started with a Norton set keep that in mind, and many of us still run right back to it when we have a problem razor....

You will not go wrong with it and when you are ready, all you need to add is a finisher...

The reason most of us are pointing toward the Norton is the price you wanted, and the fact that we know it works...

if you change your price point we would change our recommendations

Listen to the experts. There's a wealth of information here between the forum and the wiki. I just started getting into honing so I'll tell you how I purchased my setup, which was based on available information and price.

Lucky to find a Norton 4k/8k in the classifieds so that was my first purchase. Had I not seen it there, I would have opted for the Amazon set which is a great value. Since then I purchased the DMT D8C, Naniwa 1k and Naniwa 12k from SRD. You know Lynn sells good stuff and his prices and service are great.

I think the total was around $210 (say $60 for Norton, $100 for two Naniwas and $50 for DMT), and that gave me a setup I'm happy with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

NEWBS should stay away from EBAY it is that fastest way to waste money you will ever find....

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Thanks, I couldn't have said it better myself, and I typed 800 words trying. :roflmao

I have a Norton 4/8K with very little use, flattened, and in perfect condition that I am going to put up for sale maybe next week. If you are interested in this stone pm me.

Ray

Norton 4k/8k is all you really need, unless you are really looking to sharpen a few razors. Honemeisters and those sharpening A LOT will get a full set of Shaptons or Cocheras or Super Stones, because they need them and can afford them. I personally will be sharpening a few razors a month, and I will be getting the 3k and 5k Naniwa Super stones to start (comparable to the 4k/8k, just a little more expensive) and tehn adding in the 1k and 8k (= what would be norton 2k and 10k) and eventually the rest of the stones. But I plan on getting the full set, and have tried the nortons and a King and coticules/BBW (that other people owned). The Nortons work perfectly well. I dislike the fact they need soaking and are limited to 3 micron (Norton 8k=3 micron, Super Stone 8k = 1.2 micron, and the 10k and 12k are even finer...) If you are not planning on buying a lot of razors (= sharpening a lot) get the 4k/8k and a nice finisher or barber hone. I spent a chunk of b-day money on a japanese natural and its probably the best money I spent so far (well... razors... but you can use one stone on all your razors). I also have a vintage Thuringen from Kees (~$50 and compares well to an Escher, this has been tested) its only 5x1 but I think this is the second best money I spent (once again, I've got great bargains on razors, just I can use this on everything). Just a thought that initially a refresher is good for now and you WILL keep using it later.

SO long story short, Nortons for budget, if you do think you'll need more later (and are certain) visit either Lynn and Don over at SRD or Howard over at the Perfect edge and they'll hook you up. It's my opinion that an investment is an investment, "goed koop is duur koop"- buying cheap is buying expensive.

I have purchased the 4k/8k Norton Stone from Rayman and a chinese 12k as the finisher. Will it be necessary to get a starter such as a 1k and a filler between the 12k and the 8k?

If you don't want to restore, you probably won't need a 1k
but the gap between the 8 k Norton (which translates to 5k JIS)
and the 12k (which isn't actually a real 12k but its very hard) is big.
Depends on your patience.
You'll need very many strokes on that Chnese 12 k.

Then it looks like I need to scope for an 8k or something then, any reccomendations on a stone that doesn't cost $120?

Take it slow. there are people who can shave off of a Norton 8k
When you've mastered to hone, you can still decide and
then you know better about the value or what it might be worth to you.

Daniel,
You can come off that 8k stone and use a hard strop with Crox, which is equal to 30k. Give the blade 10 or 15 light strokes, and then strop it and use it. You will eventually figure out how much you will need to use the Crox to renew the blade. The 4k/8k combination will suite you just fine I think. I used that stone for a short while, and that's what I did and it worked just fine for me. By the way, I sent you and email with the tracking number.

Good Luck,

Ray

Are we talking more then seventy strokes or so on the 12k?

*taken out sorry for inconvenience*

Wow you guys are confusing the heck outta me, no telling what you a doing to somebody new to honing....

A Norton 4k/8k into a CH12k is a fine set up, the only problem is the amount of stokes the ch12k might take...

As to the different grit ratings I think you guys are reaching a little far there....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Wow you guys are confusing the heck outta me, no telling what you a doing to somebody new to honing....

A Norton 4k/8k into a CH12k is a fine set up, the only problem is the amount of stokes the ch12k might take...

As to the different grit ratings I think you guys are reaching a little far there....

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Glen is right if you are talking a 75 or 100 strokes on anything something is wrong unless your digging out a chip. If your having to do that many you were not ready for that stone.

Alrighty then.
I have a Norton 4k/8k, belgian coticule, and a chinese 12k being sent to me. I believe this should be fairly decent setup for honing and I may supplement it with chromium oxide on one side of my linen strop. I was going to try and get a thruigen to fill in between the norton and the chinese, but the price of doing so is ghastly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by khaos

There's a chart in there, but bear in mind that a Norton 4k = Shapton 3k, and Norton 8k = Shapton 5 or 6k, so I think things are a little messed up. I feel the Shapton 8k should be in the polisher section and the Norton 8k is border line in the sharpening section but I guess thats just how whoever wrote that uses them. However the 4k/8k should do you well for now, and you can get a Chinese 12k if you want. You'll need patience though. I would recommend a coticule. They're a little faster, and from what I've seen and been told some people go Norton 1k 4k 8k coticule chinese from dull as a brick to beautiful (I was given the option to try this, but due to limited time and razors opted to try the finish straight off of a coticule- which is amazing in my opinion, and straight off and Escher- which is even better). SOOOO. Pick your poison.

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I dont know where you are getting all this info about what stones match where.. But my advice is try them and see..... Then after you try it one way on about 100 razors, switch it all up, and do another 100 a different way...

You are going to find that those grit ratings mean next to nothing.... so I would be very hesitant on quoting them....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by khaos

probably about 100. If I remember my teachings right. And you shouldn't refer to grits outside of series. When you say, should I get an 8k, well... you already have an 8k. 8k Norton. 8k JIS would be Naniwa or Shapton (-ish, Shapton isn't exactly JIS) and 8k in ANSI and FEPA is off the charts fine. Like, higher than 50k JIS. I would use categories such as massive steel removal (taking out frowns and or rust and such), setting a bevel, sharpening, polishing, and final polishing/finishing. So you're asking do you need a polisher?
What hone(s) do I need? - Straight Razor Place Wiki
There's a chart in there, but bear in mind that a Norton 4k = Shapton 3k, and Norton 8k = Shapton 5 or 6k, so I think things are a little messed up. I feel the Shapton 8k should be in the polisher section and the Norton 8k is border line in the sharpening section but I guess thats just how whoever wrote that uses them. However the 4k/8k should do you well for now, and you can get a Chinese 12k if you want. You'll need patience though. I would recommend a coticule. They're a little faster, and from what I've seen and been told some people go Norton 1k 4k 8k coticule chinese from dull as a brick to beautiful (I was given the option to try this, but due to limited time and razors opted to try the finish straight off of a coticule- which is amazing in my opinion, and straight off and Escher- which is even better). SOOOO. Pick your poison.

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Wow man, not to be a d***, but you've come an awfully long way since you started thinking about buying your first hone way back in June to be giving this kind of advice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GUESSKOENIG

Alrighty then.
I have a Norton 4k/8k, belgian coticule, and a chinese 12k being sent to me. I believe this should be fairly decent setup for honing and I may supplement it with chromium oxide on one side of my linen strop. I was going to try and get a thruigen to fill in between the norton and the chinese, but the price of doing so is ghastly.

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You NEED the Norton 4/8
everything else you get is just extra....

*taken out sorry for inconvenience*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Philadelph

Wow man, not to be a d***, but you've come an awfully long way since you started thinking about buying your first hone way back in June to be giving this kind of advice.

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So why bother writing that response if not to be a d***?

I respectfully apologise. I have overstepped my bounds on a forum where apparently our right to freedom of speech is curtailed.

But you can....
There is the difference, we haven't honed 2 razors we have honed many many razors, at least Don, Alex, and I have, that I know for sure...

I myself have used every hone you mention, so has Don, I am not sure what all Alex uses....

And what we are telling you is the way you wrote that is wrong...it is confusing, and that is bad... Sorry

I don't normally write posts like this but you confused the whole thread so I WILL clarify it again and again for you, and anyone else reading it....

OK. I am sorry. I will take it down then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GUESSKOENIG

I use a 4000/8000 aluminum oxide stone lubricated with oil to sharpen and repair knives, but I can not use this stone to maintain a sharp edge on any straight razor because it is much too rough on them. So, I was wondering about purchasing the following:

JAPANESE WATER STONES SET OF 3 - eBay (item 170365829099 end time Aug-05-09 12:05:10 PDT)

However, I can not find any research on that brand and do not see myself needing to use an 800 on a straight razor except something that has a canyon in it. I was wondering if anyone had used these stones before and any reccomendations for an alternative (under $100 please).

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Guess,

One thing which may have been overlooked in the conversation here is your comment that you intend to use your hone(s) to maintain an edge - not create one. There is a difference. You might be able to get along with something as simple, and inexpensive, as the much discussed Chinese 12.000 (or so) grit wet stone (whet stone?) ((wet water whet stone?)) HONE! Regardless, maintaining an edge is much simpler than creating one or restoring an old rat.

I'm not a honester, but have a bunch of hones, probably too many, and have sharpened my own razors and re-edged some old rats. For my face and stubble, and my technique, and for touching up an edge, I find myself returning to an old and relatively small coticule and a few strokes on one or the other paddle strops I made and coated with TI paste and CrOx.

good luck, good honing, and good shaving,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by khaos

So why bother writing that response if not to be a d***?

I respectfully apologise. I have overstepped my bounds on a forum where apparently our right to freedom of speech is curtailed.

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A lot worse could have been said as I review much of your posting lately. Some people have gone way out of their way to give you the opportunity to learn. I hope you do exactly that and I would recommend that you leave it right here.

Thank you,

Lynn

I don't understand what this is all about, cause basically I've said the same.
Maybe time to get that Norton to put some background to it.

I know this is a bit old but from my research, it looks like the norton set is a good starter set (220/1000, 4k/8k, and the lapping/flattening stone) for $119. With this I need a finisher, I decided to go with an Escher. Is this the original Escher and can someone tell me where I can find one new and what I should be spending for one? Thanks!