Naniwa Chosera and Super Stone opinions, please

OK, I'm gonna come clean here.... I sold all my stones except for my DMT's and two coticules. I did it cause the wife said I could buy a Japanese finishing stone if I unloaded everything first, but anyway, the point is, all my Shaptons, Nortons, Spydercos and a few other misc stones.... they're all gone.

And I've been warned by She Who Must Be Obeyed that future raging HAD will not be tolerated.

Rather than dropping a huge amount of coin on a Japanese finisher, I've decided I'm really happy with my current finishing progress, which ends with .1 micron lapping film. So the Japanese finisher is gonna wait for a while.

Instead, I'm planning on replacing the Shapton On Glass set I had. I had the complete set from 1k through and including the 30k. I really enjoyed these stones (more so than the Nortons and Spydercos), but I hated the way they *constantly* needed lapping and refreshing. I also wasn't all that happy with the speed at which they cut. Don't get me wrong, they were good stones, but I think there's gotta be better.

So I've seen a few threads where guys have said some good things about the Naniwas, both the Chosera and the Super Stones.

I'm kinda hoping to get one thread where a bunch of you Naniwa guys can chime in with your likes/dislikes/techniques/suggestions, etc. regarding both the Choseras and Supers.

The Choseras are soooo pricey. Are they really that much better to warrant the extra cash outlay?

For those that are curious, I have managed to successfully replace the entire Shapton set with a 1.2k DMT and two combination BBW/coticules (thanks to Bart's coticule prowess and willingness to share, a guy can go from bevel setting through to finishing polish with a coticule. Just spend some time reading his techniques). I could stay with this setup, really, but I would like to have a complete set once again. Just looking to try something different and/or better than the Shaptons, Nortons and Spydercos.

The coticules will *never* get sold. In fact, over time I can definitely see acquiring more cotis and other naturals, but that's gonna be a bit down the road. :)

Thanks for any input, gents (and ladies).

Bart has said good things about the Chosera 10K (very sharp edges, good feedback), but he then finished on a hard coticule for smoothness. I think he has the 5K as well.

My experience w/ the supers was that they needed to be lapped frequently as well, not because they dished easily, but because they tended to swell/shrink w/ moisture. After every use, they would need a quick lapping or they wouldn't be totally flat the next time I got them wet. They were fast cutters & could give a nice edge, but they gave me no feedback on how the edge was developing. (They gave a very clear feeling on where the edge was on the stone, which was nice, but not how far from "done" it was.) They certainly did the job and were pretty consistent, but I prefer my coticule doing Bart's "Dilucot" method. Just personal preference here. As always, YMMV.

I've never had the Chosera stones to try but I really like the Naniwa Superstones. I don't mind lapping before each honing session and I find that I don't have to lap as much or as long with the Naniwas as I do with the Shapton Pro stones. AFAIC I'm glad that I got them and use them most of the time unless I am particularly in the mood to hone with something else.

There's talk about the Chosera in this thread.

1000k - Straight Razor Place Forums

I just picked up a complete set of the baseless Choseras, and I can say that they are completely different than the Super Stones (and completely more expensive!) The best part is that there is no sticker on the Choseras! :)

I've only used them a few times so far, and I find the super stones more "gritty" feeling, but the Choseras almost rubbery, but in a good way...:shrug:

I really liked them on the couple of carbon razors I did up to 10K so far. I can see myself getting addicted to these, and I am a die-hard Shapton guy!

:D

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Originally Posted by PA23-250

Bart has said good things about the Chosera 10K (very sharp edges, good feedback), but he then finished on a hard coticule for smoothness. I think he has the 5K as well.

My experience w/ the supers was that they needed to be lapped frequently as well, not because they dished easily, but because they tended to swell/shrink w/ moisture. After every use, they would need a quick lapping or they wouldn't be totally flat the next time I got them wet. They were fast cutters & could give a nice edge, but they gave me no feedback on how the edge was developing. (They gave a very clear feeling on where the edge was on the stone, which was nice, but not how far from "done" it was.) They certainly did the job and were pretty consistent, but I prefer my coticule doing Bart's "Dilucot" method. Just personal preference here. As always, YMMV.

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I'm trying to sell my full set of naniwas i like your self can do all my honing on coticule i use dmt to rebuild bevel or correction if needed to speed things up and go staight to yellow coticule with dilucot method edges are exallant with out the worry of over honing. I like the nortons and also would never sell them . I never got on with naniwas they load up rather quik take ages to dry out i prefer just the one hone or my combo 4k/8k. i never tryed shaptons i never tryed chorsa but i read most people rate the chorsa highly and the shaptons i don't think you will get much better its just personal taste. I started out with nortons i love the norton and belgium coticule because i'm use to them i'm sticking with them and more coticules on the way.

Yeah, I've been using Bart's Unicot and Dilucot methods pretty much exclusively for a few months now, with excellent results. I go from the coti (finishing on the coti with dishwashing liquid/water) to my pastes, to finishing film, then to webbed fabric, then to latigo, and I'm very pleased. The only negative to this process (for me, at least) is the length of time required. My cotis are really slow. Sometimes I just want to get a blade *done*, and want to do it fast.

So I guess what I'm really looking for are good, *fast* stones.

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Originally Posted by FloorPizza

So I guess what I'm really looking for are good, *fast* stones.

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IMO, Shaptons - hands down.

I'd go for the 500, 1K, 3K, 8K, 16K. The 3k-8k is sweeeeet!

:)

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Originally Posted by jendeindustries

IMO, Shaptons - hands down.

I'd go for the 500, 1K, 3K, 8K, 16K. The 3k-8k is sweeeeet!

:)

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I would say that you can get the comparable quick and consistent results with Shapton, Naniwa Super and with Norton other than you could use a decent finishing stone after the 8K Norton.

I am not sure how many razors you have honed on what stones, but I can say that I cannot concur with you as a result of honing thousands of razors on each of the stones I mentioned.

Bart's method is also fun to play with on the Coticule, but a lot of times, it takes a lot of playing to get there. I have also used this method on an Escher and Nakayama and although you can still accomplish a one hone result, it really is not the most efficient of methods considering the synthetic stones that are available.

Lynn

I had 1k, 4k, 8k, 16k, and 30k Shapton on Tempered Glass previously, so I'm kinda wanting to try something different. Also off the purchasing list is Norton, King, and Spyderco. I figure I've "been there, done that" with those stones, and would like to try something different.

Right now, the Naniwa Super Stones are in the lead by a nose. They are so much more reasonably priced than either the Shapton on glass or Choseras, I could just about buy the whole line of Super Stones, and still have enough left (compared to buying the whole line of Choseras) to get a moderately priced Japanese finisher.

I read around here somewhere that the Super Stones are what Lynn is currently using to do most of his paid-for honing now days. Anyone know if that's true? It's kinda hard to *not* go with what Lynn uses as his go-to stones, ya know? I noticed he started to carry the Supers at SRD just a few months after I bought my 30k Shapton from him.

Edit: D'oh! I wasn't quick enough.. hit the "submit" button, and I find Lynn just posted minutes ago. "Missed it by THAT much!"

Another Edit: I don't really want to buy cut-in-half Choseras to drop the price, either... I bought a cut-in-half stone once before, and decided that was the last time.

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I am not sure how many razors you have honed on what stones, but I can say that I cannot concur with you as a result of honing thousands of razors on each of the stones I mentioned.

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Lynn,

I'm not trying to cause any trouble, just posting my opinion.
:o

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Originally Posted by jendeindustries

Lynn,

I'm not trying to cause any trouble, just posting my opinion.
:o

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Opinion appreciated.......:)

Lynn

I have had 1k SS and definitely did not like it, very lousy on stainless, and pretty slow to.
The 1k Chosera I have now is the best 1k I have had (I have tried 1k King, 1k SS, 1.2k DMT)
3k Chosera is another great stone, it brings close to 5k edge, it is fast and has great feedback.
I have not tried the 10 Chosera because its so expensive, but I am completely satisfied with my 10k SS. The 10k SS does not dish fast at all, so not a lot of lapping is required.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I have had 1k SS and definitely did not like it, very lousy on stainless, and pretty slow to.
The 1k Chosera I have now is the best 1k I have had (I have tried 1k King, 1k SS, 1.2k DMT)
3k Chosera is another great stone, it brings close to 5k edge, it is fast and has great feedback.
I have not tried the 10 Chosera because its so expensive, but I am completely satisfied with my 10k SS. The 10k SS does not dish fast at all, so not a lot of lapping is required.

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I agree i found the 1k naniwa slow compared to my 1k n and dmt1200 !

I am relatively new to all of this, and have the Nani 1k, 5k, 8k, and 12k Super Stone series. The fact that Lynn's using them with consistent results was enough for me. The price didn't hurt, either.

I found these exceedlingly easy to work with and to maintain. I have DMT 8c which makes lapping a breeze. I have no difficulty at all touching up on the 12k, or bringing antique store razors back to life starting at the 1k and working the circles technique as shown by Lynn on video.

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Originally Posted by Basset

I am relatively new to all of this, and have the Nani 1k, 5k, 8k, and 12k Super Stone series. The fact that Lynn's using them with consistent results was enough for me. The price didn't hurt, either.

I found these exceedlingly easy to work with and to maintain. I have DMT 8c which makes lapping a breeze. I have no difficulty at all touching up on the 12k, or bringing antique store razors back to life starting at the 1k and working the circles technique as shown by Lynn on video.

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+1 IME. I have been pleased with the 1k for bevel setting and it seems to cut fast enough without tearing up the edge. I have the DMT 1200 as well and now I only use it on chipped up stuff and follow it with the 1k naniwa.

Talking about the Chosera line of Naniwa, I still stand by my original review.

I can't compare them with Naniwa's Superhones, because I never used those.

The honing feel and feedback on the 10K resembles that of my Nakayama. The Chosera 10K delivers its best performance when it is slightly glazed. You just need to stay on it a bit longer when you hone on it freshly lapped. Possibly the exposed cutting particles need to loose some bite. Choseras don't overhone. You can hone on the 5K or the 10K all day, it would be a tremendous waste of steel, but they don't overhone.
The edge is too sharp for my liking.

I use it often to test other hones. I simply hone till the edge maxes out on the 10K, apply a layer of tape and create a secondary bevel with whatever hone needs assessment (It's one of the 3 test procedures that I use on each Coticule I test).

The Chosera 5K is a great hone all together, but it sees little use around here, because it is so redundant in my setup. It is a bit muckier than the 10K, as if it is somewhat softer. It's fast and leaves a very smooth bevel, that quickly responds to the 10K. Yet the 5K is not quite sharp enough to shave.

It's sad that the Chosera 10K is so highly priced. I was lucky to buy mine at considerably less, probably by some misunderstanding between the European importer and Naniwa headquarters. If they weren't so highly priced, I am convinced they would have a very enthusiastic user base.

I don't know about speed. It's true, at least in my experience, that honing on a Coticule takes many laps.
But I'm doing those laps while I was otherwise waiting for the Chosera to soak. (You can't keep it submerged at all times - Naniwa specifically warns against that - and those thick heavy chosera's sure take a long time soaking 20 minutes minimum). I can see how that soaking time becomes unimportant when you need to do 5 razors in a row, but for doing one quick razor, what beats a hone that you take from a drawer and start working on? (Am I correct that this can be done with the Shaptons? And a Coticule obviously:))

I got my Choseras because I was on a trip to get a razor as keen as possible. The first thing I bought on that trip was the Nakayama, that delivered me nothing I couldn't already achieve (later I tried another and came to the same conclusion). The second purchase were the Choseras, that taught me that: A. those few stubborn spots at my neck didn't require a sharper edge, but a better stretching strategy. And B. that I wasn't fond of those sharper edges and the sliced skin papillae that came with it. That's where the trip ended for me, but that doesn't mean it has to end there for you.

Kind regards,
Bart.

Bart,

I use my shaptons in the manner you described (pull 'em off the shelf, spray 'em, and use 'em). This is why I went with them versus the super stones. I just didn't want to mess with soaking them, but like you say, it's because I'm only honing 1-3(max) per session. However, I've got no experience with anything but the Shapton line and Norton 4/8K plus a couple of finishers.

I know that the Naniwas must be nice because all of my edges honed on them have been nice. I've just not used them myself.

Fantastic post, Bart. I swear, sometimes I get the feeling you can read minds; often you discuss things I've been thinking about but haven't even posted. You nailed a bunch of the stuff I've been wondering about.

I *love* my coticules, and I have really enjoyed honing with them. However, I do have "benign tremor", aka shaky hands. So I have to hone with two hands. As you can imagine, my strokes-per-minute suffers greatly, which can make honing a bit more of a chore than it should be. Throw in the rather slow speed of my rock hard natural combination coticule, and it can *really* make honing tedious. The other coticule that I kept is faster, but it is really old, narrow, and thin. There's about an eighth of an inch of usable stone left on the yellow side. So it doesn't see much use. The other coticule I had I sold when I sold my Shaptons, Norton, and Spydercos. I wish I hadn't sold that stone. It was a yellow coti, slate backed, faster than my natural combination, but it was narrow and I prefer wider hones.

I would *love* to try out what would be considered a "fast coticule" and see if it would take the place of a full set of synthetics, but "fast" is so subjective; how do I call up a vendor and order a "fast coticule"?

Even after reading your Chosera review, it's hard to drop that kind of cash without trying the stone first. Awesome review, btw.

I wish someone around here would start renting out stones. I'd give them enough business to make it worthwhile, that's for sure. :)

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Originally Posted by FloorPizza

Fantastic post, Bart. I swear, sometimes I get the feeling you can read minds; often you discuss things I've been thinking about but haven't even posted. You nailed a bunch of the stuff I've been wondering about.

I *love* my coticules, and I have really enjoyed honing with them. However, I do have "benign tremor", aka shaky hands. So I have to hone with two hands. As you can imagine, my strokes-per-minute suffers greatly, which can make honing a bit more of a chore than it should be. Throw in the rather slow speed of my rock hard natural combination coticule, and it can *really* make honing tedious. The other coticule that I kept is faster, but it is really old, narrow, and thin. There's about an eighth of an inch of usable stone left on the yellow side. So it doesn't see much use. The other coticule I had I sold when I sold my Shaptons, Norton, and Spydercos. I wish I hadn't sold that stone. It was a yellow coti, slate backed, faster than my natural combination, but it was narrow and I prefer wider hones.

I would *love* to try out what would be considered a "fast coticule" and see if it would take the place of a full set of synthetics, but "fast" is so subjective; how do I call up a vendor and order a "fast coticule"?

Even after reading your Chosera review, it's hard to drop that kind of cash without trying the stone first. Awesome review, btw.

I wish someone around here would start renting out stones. I'd give them enough business to make it worthwhile, that's for sure. :)

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currently you can get 1/2 thick 10k Chosera from HERE
I think you need to drop Dave and e-mail because he does not have them pre-cut i think

Well, let's see.......

I own Chosera's, Naniwa SS's, Norton's, Shapton Glass, Kings, Kitiyamas and a few others, Coticules, Escher, Charnley Forest, Nakayama Maruichi, Asagi, Spydercos, Arkansas, barber hones, Chinese 12K's, Slates, Turkish and on and on......

To me the Coticule is not the end of the world or even the best of what is out there. I know some folks like them and I think that's great. Personally, I like the results from a finishing standpoint better on my Escher and Japanese naturals. That said, I do think the Coticule is a very viable alternative when honing although I have never had any affinity for the bbw stones.

Now from a pure comparison standpoint, the Chosera and the Super Stones actually produce pretty similar results. I actually get similar results from the Naniwa Super 10K and 12K and the Chosera 10K. The Chosera stones are a harder stone and do need to be soaked in water before use. As indicated, they do have trouble or have had trouble when left soaking for an extended period of time. The Super Stones only need a spritz of water or a thin film to work properly. The Super Stones are a resin bonded stone and do have a softer feel than the Chosera. For some this may feel gritty or provide a sort of feedback, but to me, it just feels softer. I actually like this on the Super 1K as it does a great job setting bevels, but doesn't seem to wear as hard on the spine of the razor for some reason. I have not found that either stone works any better or worse on stainless blades vs. carbon. I do normally find that a few more polishing strokes at higher grits help with stainless blades or those with higher rockwell's. I find the feel of my Nakayama silkier than the Chosera 10K, so again much personal preference or technique here.On lapping, I lapped all when new and typically lap or clean with a DMT 325 or GDLP after every use and have not found either to be any harder or easier to lap and keep flat. Both accumulate swarf about the same in my opinion. I find no differences in using them after lapping with either the DMT or GDLP.

From a price standpoint, the Chosera stones are definitely more expensive than the Super Stones. They are more on line with the Shapton Glass and maybe a little more.

The fun part for me is getting to play with all these stones all the time. Lately, I have been setting bevels on a Naniwa Super 1K followed by the Norton 4K/8K and then the Escher as a finish, then pasting with .5 diamond on felt or chromium oxide on felt. I like switching up the Naniwa SS, the Shapton Glass and the Nortons alot. I do try to look at what works consistently, what can be learned easily, what can be repeated and what can be obtained on all budgets to get good results and I have played with films and sandpapers too. I wish I could remember half the stuff I try when honing razors just for the sake of trying different hones and media.

I hope that when people read this stuff, especially the new guys that they are really getting our preferences and hopefully actually comparisons of the things being questioned vs. thoughts on things not tried just to come back to preferences.

I probably spend about 4-6 hours of almost every day honing razors and can only pass along what I experience which I hope has more value than just what I think........:D

Lynn

Interesting comment on the 1k SS and how it works with stainless/carbon. I have only tried that stone on knives and it definitely did not work well on stainless but it worked very well on carbon. I still did not like the feel,for me the Chosera provides more grip (sucks the blade to the surface better if you like).
By the way the Chosera and the Super Stones have the same abrasive, it is more concentrated in the Chosera, and its not resin bound.

FPizza, what is it that you did not like about the Shaptons? Or are you simply looking for a change of pace?