Vintage Hones

Ok, I want to know why "Vintage" hones are better? I've had this conversation with some pretty heavy hitters. Howard for one. We talked about Coticules He feels as do I, it is contingent on the stone. My contentions is that you could have a hone today that's every bit as good as a Vintage hone. What do you think? Here something I posted in another thread. Hones, or say, Coticules from the 1960's would be considered Vintage by today's standards. A Coticule from the Swinging 60's would be Vintage.

Now, fast forward to today. Ardennes opened up a mine that's been shut since 1960. I, and some of you have hones from that mine. Are they considered "Vintage"? Hmmm, Good question right ! But, I want to know why they are considered, "Better" I've read this before on the forum by senior members, but no one can give me a valid answer other than, "people hold onto good stuff" Wow. really, Now, Escher is vintage, they are not mining any new hones. That mine's been shut for years, like Nakayama. I don't know about that stuff that Mueller sells, I don't own any. But I have seen my share of Vintage Coticules. The Garnet content is not any higher, so is just that their old, not that they cut or give a better edge. We like them because they are old and collectable. Is it Psycological? We paid a lot, therefore, we want it to cut better...?I really want to know. Those of you who have "Vintage stones" Chime and let me here your thoughts...Especially if you've had any evaluations done, or have done side by side comparisons...What are your findings.....:needcoffee:

when talking about a piece of natural rock. I dont think vintage really comes into play other than talking about collectability.

I have a vintage coticule combo that came with a wooden box and instructions. It does not work any better/worse(all coticules are a bit different), but it has more of a collector value to it than a new stone.


That is like talking about vintage diamonds vs new diamonds i guess....

Yes, Thank you, That the answer I'm looking for. Ive read time and time again, that Vintage is better. It is not. It has nothing to do with. It depends on the stone. You are right, Vintage is cool, and Collectible. I agree.

I think vintage vs new comes in to play when you are dealing with actual manufactured items.

For example, the vintage norton stones apparently have some magic that makes the axemen scream 'YEAAAHHHH!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zib

Yes, Thank you, That the answer I'm looking for. Ive read time and time again, that Vintage is better. It is not. It has nothing to do with. It depends on the stone. You are right, Vintage is cool, and Collectible. I agree.

---

The only way I could see it's possible that they are any better whatsoever is if the selection process has changed. If they were more selective in what they would toss out. It would still make very little difference on any individual stone, but less stones with inclusions and irregularities may lead to the feeling of superior quality.

Just out of curiosity, who said they are better ? I've read that the best Arkansas stones were mined years ago but I haven't read that about coticules. IME, having 12 coticules that I would say are an appropriate size to hone razors, and 2 that are a little too small ,that they are all good. Of all of my coticules three are recent production that came from Ardennes and one of those is my 'best' one. An 8x3 natural.

I have a 'Deep Rock', an 'Old Rock' and a Salamander, all with labels. The 'Old Rock' is my 2nd best and IIRC that came out of Ardennes back in the old days. My impression from my own experience is that they are all good. Reading Bart's comparisons he says that they are close and that some cut faster, are harder or softer. I haven't had the amount of experience with them that Bart has had but in my limited experience I have drawn the same conclusion.

Bottom line is if you get a coticule and hone razors with it and if it delivers the goods you will stick with it and if it doesn't you will move on until you find something that does. The guy I got my best one from, TheTopher, used to be a member here and is an expert honer. He had bought his 8x3 natural from Howard and it wasn't doing it for him.

He told me that it would sharpen a razor satisfactorily to shave but not to the 'scary sharp' level that he looked for. He sold the coticule to me for what he had in it and I love the edges it produces but I'm not crazy about 'scary sharp'.

Talking about vintage, AFAIC Eschers are the best natural hone for finishing. They are not as versatile as a coticule on the lower end but, for me, they produce a finer edge on the top end. I also think that vintage Eschers are better than the Thuringans that came later. Mullers and such as that. Just IMHO. That said sometimes I like to hone a razor on a coticule for the feel of the edge that it produces and I do think it is a unique and characteristic feel. YMMV. :) I have yet to try the legendary Nakayamas or any other J-nats... from what I've read they are quite the finisher too. Nice to have so many choices of hones to experience.

Its all the same rock AFAIC, one piece may be better than the other, it would depend on what nature has done and not when it was mined. Vintage is cool because most vintage stones are set to a wood block or box and have a little human history to them.

Rich some one could argue and say it is better because At that time they dig out good ones and left bad ones untouched. Example why there is No good new Escher's available now? Couple years ago they surfaced and wasn't even close to old ones.
. New ones which i have experienced isn't good. Smart people dig as much as they could.
In the other hand if that rock formed millions years ago it shouldn't be differences among them. at least a lot.
I cannot say anything about coticules.
Depends how deep or which layer's etc.
I am really not archeologist .lol
Hope this helps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Rich some one could argue and say it is better because At that time they dig out good ones and left bad ones untouched. Example why there is No good new Escher's available now? Couple years ago they surfaced and wasn't even close to old ones.
. New ones which i have experienced isn't good. Smart people dig as much as they could.
In the other hand if that rock formed millions years ago it shouldn't be differences among them. at least a lot.
I cannot say anything about coticules.
Depends how deep or which layer's etc.
I am really not archeologist .lol
Hope this helps.

---

Yes, good point. The new so called Escher's aren't as good as the Vintage ones. The older Escher's are superior IMHO...

I'm really talking about Vintage Coticules....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Just out of curiosity, who said they are better ? I've read that the best Arkansas stones were mined years ago but I haven't read that about coticules. IME, having 12 coticules that I would say are an appropriate size to hone razors, and 2 that are a little too small ,that they are all good. Of all of my coticules three are recent production that came from Ardennes and one of those is my 'best' one. An 8x3 natural.

I have a 'Deep Rock', an 'Old Rock' and a Salamander, all with labels. The 'Old Rock' is my 2nd best and IIRC that came out of Ardennes back in the old days. My impression from my own experience is that they are all good. Reading Bart's comparisons he says that they are close and that some cut faster, are harder or softer. I haven't had the amount of experience with them that Bart has had but in my limited experience I have drawn the same conclusion.

Bottom line is if you get a coticule and hone razors with it and if it delivers the goods you will stick with it and if it doesn't you will move on until you find something that does. The guy I got my best one from, TheTopher, used to be a member here and is an expert honer. He had bought his 8x3 natural from Howard and it wasn't doing it for him.

He told me that it would sharpen a razor satisfactorily to shave but not to the 'scary sharp' level that he looked for. He sold the coticule to me for what he had in it and I love the edges it produces but I'm not crazy about 'scary sharp'.

Talking about vintage, AFAIC Eschers are the best natural hone for finishing. They are not as versatile as a coticule on the lower end but, for me, they produce a finer edge on the top end. I also think that vintage Eschers are better than the Thuringans that came later. Mullers and such as that. Just IMHO. That said sometimes I like to hone a razor on a coticule for the feel of the edge that it produces and I do think it is a unique and characteristic feel. YMMV. :) I have yet to try the legendary Nakayamas or any other J-nats... from what I've read they are quite the finisher too. Nice to have so many choices of hones to experience.

---

I agree Jimmy, I have to stop down and see you and bring my J nats for you to try. I love my Escher. I would never give them up or sell them, but the J nats are great too. It's a hard choice when reaching for a finisher, but it's one or the other, Escher or J nat.....

I think that the argument that rock X, which is however many millions of years old, is better than rock Y, which is however many millions of years plus a few decades old, is pretty redundant. If there is a difference in quality then I think that it would be due to being able to be more selective a few decades ago, when the supply may have seemed more inexhaustible, as opposed to today, when we are becoming more aware just how finite these resources are, and rocks that may have been discarded back then, now make the grade to be sold. But, as always, we are dealing with natural articles that do not have the consistency of synthetic abrasives. Each hone is an individual, and therefore it is equally likely that the one in a million hone could be found today, just like they could have been found decades ago.

Another factor at play here, and one that is not just limited to coticules, is that today there isn't the same diversity when it comes to sources of honestones. Considering the coticules, Ardennes Coticule have worked one mine, and have recently reopened another. Going back to the 1800's Belgium was exporting hones from many areas, including but not limited to: Ambleve, Bihain, Herbeumont, Lierreux, Namur, Recht, Salm-Chateau, Spa and Vielsalm. With more areas exporting more hones, competition was higher and only the best would have been able to complete in the international market.

I have coticules from: Ambleve, Bihain, Herbeumont, Namur, Spa and some that are labelled as Old Rock. There are definite differences between these hones, as would be expected based on the fairly wide geographical range, but they aren't all excellent by virtue of the fact that they are vintage. The hones that were mined near Spa were regarded as being without equal in the rest of Europe when the stones were being worked in the 1800's, and my Spa hones are better than my other Belgians. My Namur hones are excellent also, Namur was one of the principle sources of export for hones in the 1700's up until the mid 1800's before their supply was superceded by the more familiar sources.

Also, way back when, Coticules were used primarily as razor hones, and those that were exported would have been selected based on their suitability for that particular purpose. So that would explain why vintage coticules may seem better to us as razor enthusiasts. With the rebirth of the straight razor being a much more recent phenomenon, the Coticule has been adopted by other fields as well and therefore the selection of the stone more recently, would have to embrace all applications, and not just razor hones.

As long as you are buying from a knowledgable source, who knows what you intend to use the stone for, I don't think one has to worry about how much better the vintage ones may have been. Coticules today are being retailed by many people who are primarily straight razor enthusiasts themselves, and therefore know what a good coticule for a straight razor is. Older stones are not better simply because they are older, it's just that certain excellent sources of hones may have been worked out may years ago, and as the stones became more unavailable so they become the subject of myth.

Kindest regards,
Alex

'll sell my soul for a Spa mined coticule. :banghead:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

'll sell my soul for a Spa mined coticule. :banghead:

---

Oh Jimmy,
Given the number of quality hones you have...surely there isnt much of your soul left, in your possesion? :D

Mac

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by McWolf1969

Oh Jimmy,
Given the number of quality hones you have...surely there isnt much of your soul left, in your possesion? :D

Mac

---

It's vintage soul Mac, from the 1940s .... better than the soul that came later. :rock:

Back in the early days of SRP four years ago or so, there was no Bart here, and no one had made a systematic, in-depth study of coticules from different mines and veins, of differing degrees of hardness, etc.

The consensus wisdom on SRP at that time was that they were exclusively finishing hones, that you made a light slurry on them and did about 15-20 passes. A "good coticule" was one that produced a nice shaving edge from this procedure. A "bum coticule" was one that didn't. The procedure itself was not often questioned, and if you ask the poor guys selling coticules on SRP in those days – Howard Schecter and Tony Miller – they'll tell you they got a lot of returns citing customer dissatisfaction.

You can be pretty sure that those rejected stones would find happy customers on SRP today. That's thanks to Bart and a few other members who've taught us how coticules really work. A coticule that dulls your edge with light slurry and 20 passes might be a superlative polisher when used with water only, an excellent bevel setter when used with heavy slurry – or both. But in 2006 that champion coticule would probably have ended up in the reject pile.

It may well be the case that there are more "vintage" coticules out there on ebay, in estate sales and so on that fit the 20-passes-on-light-slurry paradigm. That is certainly my impression, and it was the impression of SRPers back in the day, when the prejudice against "new" coticules took root. If so, this could simply reflect the fact that barbers also tended to use coticules this way (for quick touch-ups using light slurry), and the stones they held on to as "keepers" are those now making their way onto ebay and so on.

But it's not something you have to worry about now, because we know a lot more about these stones than we did three years ago. The kind of coticule that works well with light slurry + 15-20 passes is only one kind of coticule, and not even necessarily the best kind. It depends what you're looking for. There aren't really any "bum coticules" (unless they're cracked or have serious inclusions or something), because all are good finishers when used with water only. Beyond that, they have differences that are either advantages or disadvantages depending on what you want. The key is to buy from a seller who knows these stones; they don't have to have a PhD from the Bart University of Coticule Science; they just need to be able to tell you with confidence, this one cuts fast enough to set bevels when used with heavy slurry, or this one's painfully slow even with slurry but it's as fine at the upper end as an Escher, etc. Each of these things represents a relevant piece of intelligence if you're planning to put the stone to use. Whether the stone was mined yesterday or in the 1920s, on the other hand, does not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

It's vintage soul Mac, from the 1940s .... better than the soul that came later. :rock:

---

ROFL! Good one Jimmy. I bow to your superior vintageness...:p

Mac

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I don't buy into the comments about "good" stones were mined back in the day, while the "bad" ones were left behind. You think the miners could tell whether or not a chunk of Coticule was bad without first extracting, cutting, and flattening a surface for testing?

---

I assume Miners first did cut small peace test that stone then go head dig it in more or leave it alone.
This will be easier then vise versa.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

The question to ask is, who is calling vintage Coticules "vintage"? Sellers who are trying to make an extra buck no doubt.

They are natural hones, all probably billions of years old, so why is a hone mined, say 100 years ago any more vintage than one mined tomorrow? Because it has been out of the earth and exposed to the elements for a century? I don't think so.

I don't buy into the comments about "good" stones were mined back in the day, while the "bad" ones were left behind. You think the miners could tell whether or not a chunk of Coticule was bad without first extracting, cutting, and flattening a surface for testing? If so, then why is there allegedly still some discarded chunks of Coticule left outside the mine(s) from the miners? Surely they wouldn't have discarded it, if it were good enough to be sold to the public.

---

Thank you O_S. You hit the nail right on the head. That's exactly what I think.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

'll sell my soul for a Spa mined coticule. :banghead:

---

I offered the same deal in return for a Devonshire Oilstone, but seeing as my soul is tarnished beyond repair I didn't get any takers.:cry:

Other sources of vintage coticule hones I found going through the disorganised pile I use as a filing system are: Liege, which seems to be a very early source, pre-dating Nmaur; Ottrez and Stavelot. I don't have any of these, not that I'm aware of anyways, so I can't comment on how these compare to the currently available Coticules.

Of the types that I do have I can add the following background information from various sources I have found.

Ambleve was a source of well regarded razor hones, going back centuries. Bihain stones were the stone of choice in the Sheffield cutlery trade (although I'm not sure if the source is referring to the industry as a whole, or a specific branch). Those of Herbeumont are described as being superior in both extent of the beds and quality of the finished article. The Namur stones were described as being equal to the Turkey Hones back when the Turkey stones were the most revered hones on the market. Incidentally, and I'm afraid this doesn't add anything to the New vs. Vintage debate, it was common for synthetic hones at the time to be made with two different colour layers in order to mimic the look of the Namur stones because they were so highly regarded.

Kindest regards,
Alex

Just a few thoughts.

While in the ground, as far as I'm concerned a rock is the most antique thing that exists period. Once the material is mined and processed it has then been reborn as a manufactured item and from that point on is used and after so many years it becomes vintage or antique like any other manufactured item. How about a car. The steel has been mined from a rock. Maybe more involved than a hone but the concept is the same.

As far as old and new it all depends on the location. When you mine any economically sought after material in the ground very often the best quality stuff is removed first. The remaining slowly or sometimes very rapidly deteriorates or disappears totally. However there are plenty of mines where the deposits are so large the quality is the same decade after decade so it all depends on the material and the location.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A_S

Going back to the 1800's Belgium was exporting hones from many areas, including but not limited to: Ambleve, Bihain, Herbeumont, Lierreux, Namur, Recht, Salm-Chateau, Spa and Vielsalm.

---

Those are all locations where Coticule traders resided. Most of them are right in the middle of the Vielsalm area (Vielsalm, Lierneux, Bihain, Salm-Chateau), where the Coticule rock is found (in a geological formation called the Stavelot Massive) But Spa, Namur and Herbeumont are just locations of export companies. Amel (Amblève) and Recht are in the neighborhood of Vielsalm. But there's no Coticule in the underground of any of those places other than the Vielsalm area. Not according to the geological maps I've seen. And neither have I ever read a single source that mentioned any Coticule mining activity in another area than the Vielsalm vicinity.

There has bee confusion about this. Coticules have been exported all over the world. Sometimes they were rebranded by large wholesalers in foreign countries. There even exists a source that (mistakingly) locates the Coticule mines in the south east of Germany, probably because a large reseller was located there.

But it would come as a complete and totally unexpected surprise to me, if someone came up with proof of any Coticule mining activity at another location than the Vielsalm area.
That of course doesn't deny that a company located at Namur couldn't be selling highly regarded Coticule hones.

Best regards,
Bart.

At last count, I've collected 18 coticules. I am certain that 4 were recently mined, and I'm pretty sure that 10 are "vintage" (mined years ago). The rest I'm not sure.

I love all of them, they're coticules! But 3 out of the 4 recent ones are noticeably good, one is the best I've used. Only 3 out of 10 vintage are noticeably good, with one of the 10 the worst I've used. This is after lapping all of them at least a bit, none were used "as-is".

This isn't a scientific sample, and in fairness, the new ones were hand picked by trusted sellers for use with razors. But for me, vintage coticules aren't predictably better hones. I admit they are often thicker and more interesting, but not better hones.

I think buying from knowledgeable sellers is a far better predictor of hone quality in general.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bart

Those are all locations where Coticule traders resided. Most of them are right in the middle of the Vielsalm area (Vielsalm, Lierneux, Bihain, Salm-Chateau), where the Coticule rock is found (in a geological formation called the Stavelot Massive) But Spa, Namur and Herbeumont are just locations of export companies. Amel (Amblève) and Recht are in the neighborhood of Vielsalm. But there's no Coticule in the underground of any of those places other than the Vielsalm area. Not according to the geological maps I've seen. And neither have I ever read a single source that mentioned any Coticule mining activity in another area than the Vielsalm vicinity.

There has bee confusion about this. Coticules have been exported all over the world. Sometimes they were rebranded by large wholesalers in foreign countries. There even exists a source that (mistakingly) locates the Coticule mines in the south east of Germany, probably because a large reseller was located there.

But it would come as a complete and totally unexpected surprise to me, if someone came up with proof of any Coticule mining activity at another location than the Vielsalm area.
That of course doesn't deny that a company located at Namur couldn't be selling highly regarded Coticule hones.

Best regards,
Bart.

---

All of the references I have treat these areas as sources where the stones were found, as opposed to the location of manufacturers/ wholesalers. I'm willing to defer to your knowledge here, but the following are some of the sources I have found. " The Mineral Institute of the British Empire & Foreign Countries- Abrasives," published in 1929 specifies that razor hone quarries were found in Lierreux, Sart, Bihain and Recht. It also mentions that there a number of quarries to be found in Vielsalm, but doesn't specify how many.

The Geologie de Belgique specifies Stavelot and Salm-Chateau as the locations where hones are found.

Herbeumont is mentioned as containing extensive beds in the Journal of the Iron and Steel Institute. Although I'm beginning to have doubts that the coticule I have which was represented as coming from this area is genuine, as looking back over my e-mail correspondence with the seller, he didn't mention Herbeumont stones until I asked, when he miraculously remembered having one.

Rene d' Hauy mentions hones found in Liege, and Brongniart goes on to specify Namur. Also, one of the earliest mineralogies (either by Kidd or Kirwan, can't remember which) specifies Namur as being the source of particularly superior honestones. Blum specifies Ottrez and Bihain. Zirkel mentions Petit Sart.

Can't remember any references off hand, but the slate quarries at Ambleve are mentioned as having a very long history of producing razor hones. Spa is mentioned as having a number of quarries producing hones in a Universal Gazetteer.

Kindest regards,
Alex

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A_S

All of the references I have treat these areas as sources where the stones were found, as opposed to the location of manufacturers/ wholesalers. I'm willing to defer to your knowledge here, but the following are some of the sources I have found. " The Mineral Institute of the British Empire & Foreign Countries- Abrasives," published in 1929 specifies that razor hone quarries were found in Lierreux, Sart, Bihain and Recht. It also mentions that there a number of quarries to be found in Vielsalm, but doesn't specify how many.

The Geologie de Belgique specifies Stavelot and Salm-Chateau as the locations where hones are found.

Herbeumont is mentioned as containing extensive beds in the Journal of the Iron and Steel Institute. Although I'm beginning to have doubts that the coticule I have which was represented as coming from this area is genuine, as looking back over my e-mail correspondence with the seller, he didn't mention Herbeumont stones until I asked, when he miraculously remembered having one.

Rene d' Hauy mentions hones found in Liege, and Brongniart goes on to specify Namur. Also, one of the earliest mineralogies (either by Kidd or Kirwan, can't remember which) specifies Namur as being the source of particularly superior honestones. Blum specifies Ottrez and Bihain. Zirkel mentions Petit Sart.

Can't remember any references off hand, but the slate quarries at Ambleve are mentioned as having a very long history of producing razor hones. Spa is mentioned as having a number of quarries producing hones in a Universal Gazetteer.

Kindest regards,
Alex

---

Lierreux, Sart, Bihain, Recht, Vielsalm, Stavelot, Petit Sart, Ottré are all located in the area where Coticule rock was mined. Petit Sart is the place where Ardennes Coticule operates. They also exploit a mine at Regné.
Liège is the nearest big city, but too far away to have any Coticule in the underground. (it's another geological region). So is Namur. Herbeumont is a lovely little village. If you ever visit Belgium, do spend some time over there. (While you're at it, pass by Chassepierre and St.-Cécile as well), but you won't find any Coticule there.

Kind regards,
Bart.

Also keep in mind often times when you have some mining operation especially a small one operated by a person or family they don't want poachers and will give innacurate info so if you go and try and find a specific mine unless the locals put you right you may never find it.

Here's a link to the mineralogy I mentioned that talks about hones from Namur. It's Kidd's Outlines of Mineralogy and was published in 1809. Outlines of mineralogy - Google Books

Kindest regards,
Alex