Thread: Vintage Hones

Ok, I want to know why "Vintage" hones are better? I've had this conversation with some pretty heavy hitters. Howard for one. We talked about Coticules He feels as do I, it is contingent on the stone. My contentions is that you could have a hone today that's every bit as good as a Vintage hone. What do you think? Here something I posted in another thread. Hones, or say, Coticules from the 1960's would be considered Vintage by today's standards. A Coticule from the Swinging 60's would be Vintage.

Now, fast forward to today. Ardennes opened up a mine that's been shut since 1960. I, and some of you have hones from that mine. Are they considered "Vintage"? Hmmm, Good question right ! But, I want to know why they are considered, "Better" I've read this before on the forum by senior members, but no one can give me a valid answer other than, "people hold onto good stuff" Wow. really, Now, Escher is vintage, they are not mining any new hones. That mine's been shut for years, like Nakayama. I don't know about that stuff that Mueller sells, I don't own any. But I have seen my share of Vintage Coticules. The Garnet content is not any higher, so is just that their old, not that they cut or give a better edge. We like them because they are old and collectable. Is it Psycological? We paid a lot, therefore, we want it to cut better...?I really want to know. Those of you who have "Vintage stones" Chime and let me here your thoughts...Especially if you've had any evaluations done, or have done side by side comparisons...What are your findings.....

when talking about a piece of natural rock. I dont think vintage really comes into play other than talking about collectability.

I have a vintage coticule combo that came with a wooden box and instructions. It does not work any better/worse(all coticules are a bit different), but it has more of a collector value to it than a new stone.


That is like talking about vintage diamonds vs new diamonds i guess....

Yes, Thank you, That the answer I'm looking for. Ive read time and time again, that Vintage is better. It is not. It has nothing to do with. It depends on the stone. You are right, Vintage is cool, and Collectible. I agree.

I think vintage vs new comes in to play when you are dealing with actual manufactured items.

For example, the vintage norton stones apparently have some magic that makes the axemen scream 'YEAAAHHHH!"

Originally Posted by zib

Yes, Thank you, That the answer I'm looking for. Ive read time and time again, that Vintage is better. It is not. It has nothing to do with. It depends on the stone. You are right, Vintage is cool, and Collectible. I agree.

The only way I could see it's possible that they are any better whatsoever is if the selection process has changed. If they were more selective in what they would toss out. It would still make very little difference on any individual stone, but less stones with inclusions and irregularities may lead to the feeling of superior quality.

Just out of curiosity, who said they are better ? I've read that the best Arkansas stones were mined years ago but I haven't read that about coticules. IME, having 12 coticules that I would say are an appropriate size to hone razors, and 2 that are a little too small ,that they are all good. Of all of my coticules three are recent production that came from Ardennes and one of those is my 'best' one. An 8x3 natural.

I have a 'Deep Rock', an 'Old Rock' and a Salamander, all with labels. The 'Old Rock' is my 2nd best and IIRC that came out of Ardennes back in the old days. My impression from my own experience is that they are all good. Reading Bart's comparisons he says that they are close and that some cut faster, are harder or softer. I haven't had the amount of experience with them that Bart has had but in my limited experience I have drawn the same conclusion.

Bottom line is if you get a coticule and hone razors with it and if it delivers the goods you will stick with it and if it doesn't you will move on until you find something that does. The guy I got my best one from, TheTopher, used to be a member here and is an expert honer. He had bought his 8x3 natural from Howard and it wasn't doing it for him.

He told me that it would sharpen a razor satisfactorily to shave but not to the 'scary sharp' level that he looked for. He sold the coticule to me for what he had in it and I love the edges it produces but I'm not crazy about 'scary sharp'.

Talking about vintage, AFAIC Eschers are the best natural hone for finishing. They are not as versatile as a coticule on the lower end but, for me, they produce a finer edge on the top end. I also think that vintage Eschers are better than the Thuringans that came later. Mullers and such as that. Just IMHO. That said sometimes I like to hone a razor on a coticule for the feel of the edge that it produces and I do think it is a unique and characteristic feel. YMMV. I have yet to try the legendary Nakayamas or any other J-nats... from what I've read they are quite the finisher too. Nice to have so many choices of hones to experience.

Its all the same rock AFAIC, one piece may be better than the other, it would depend on what nature has done and not when it was mined. Vintage is cool because most vintage stones are set to a wood block or box and have a little human history to them.

Rich some one could argue and say it is better because At that time they dig out good ones and left bad ones untouched. Example why there is No good new Escher's available now? Couple years ago they surfaced and wasn't even close to old ones.
. New ones which i have experienced isn't good. Smart people dig as much as they could.
In the other hand if that rock formed millions years ago it shouldn't be differences among them. at least a lot.
I cannot say anything about coticules.
Depends how deep or which layer's etc.
I am really not archeologist .lol
Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Rich some one could argue and say it is better because At that time they dig out good ones and left bad ones untouched. Example why there is No good new Escher's available now? Couple years ago they surfaced and wasn't even close to old ones.
. New ones which i have experienced isn't good. Smart people dig as much as they could.
In the other hand if that rock formed millions years ago it shouldn't be differences among them. at least a lot.
I cannot say anything about coticules.
Depends how deep or which layer's etc.
I am really not archeologist .lol
Hope this helps.

Yes, good point. The new so called Escher's aren't as good as the Vintage ones. The older Escher's are superior IMHO...

I'm really talking about Vintage Coticules....

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Just out of curiosity, who said they are better ? I've read that the best Arkansas stones were mined years ago but I haven't read that about coticules. IME, having 12 coticules that I would say are an appropriate size to hone razors, and 2 that are a little too small ,that they are all good. Of all of my coticules three are recent production that came from Ardennes and one of those is my 'best' one. An 8x3 natural.

I have a 'Deep Rock', an 'Old Rock' and a Salamander, all with labels. The 'Old Rock' is my 2nd best and IIRC that came out of Ardennes back in the old days. My impression from my own experience is that they are all good. Reading Bart's comparisons he says that they are close and that some cut faster, are harder or softer. I haven't had the amount of experience with them that Bart has had but in my limited experience I have drawn the same conclusion.

Bottom line is if you get a coticule and hone razors with it and if it delivers the goods you will stick with it and if it doesn't you will move on until you find something that does. The guy I got my best one from, TheTopher, used to be a member here and is an expert honer. He had bought his 8x3 natural from Howard and it wasn't doing it for him.

He told me that it would sharpen a razor satisfactorily to shave but not to the 'scary sharp' level that he looked for. He sold the coticule to me for what he had in it and I love the edges it produces but I'm not crazy about 'scary sharp'.

Talking about vintage, AFAIC Eschers are the best natural hone for finishing. They are not as versatile as a coticule on the lower end but, for me, they produce a finer edge on the top end. I also think that vintage Eschers are better than the Thuringans that came later. Mullers and such as that. Just IMHO. That said sometimes I like to hone a razor on a coticule for the feel of the edge that it produces and I do think it is a unique and characteristic feel. YMMV. I have yet to try the legendary Nakayamas or any other J-nats... from what I've read they are quite the finisher too. Nice to have so many choices of hones to experience.

I agree Jimmy, I have to stop down and see you and bring my J nats for you to try. I love my Escher. I would never give them up or sell them, but the J nats are great too. It's a hard choice when reaching for a finisher, but it's one or the other, Escher or J nat.....