Thread: Vintage Hones

I think that the argument that rock X, which is however many millions of years old, is better than rock Y, which is however many millions of years plus a few decades old, is pretty redundant. If there is a difference in quality then I think that it would be due to being able to be more selective a few decades ago, when the supply may have seemed more inexhaustible, as opposed to today, when we are becoming more aware just how finite these resources are, and rocks that may have been discarded back then, now make the grade to be sold. But, as always, we are dealing with natural articles that do not have the consistency of synthetic abrasives. Each hone is an individual, and therefore it is equally likely that the one in a million hone could be found today, just like they could have been found decades ago.

Another factor at play here, and one that is not just limited to coticules, is that today there isn't the same diversity when it comes to sources of honestones. Considering the coticules, Ardennes Coticule have worked one mine, and have recently reopened another. Going back to the 1800's Belgium was exporting hones from many areas, including but not limited to: Ambleve, Bihain, Herbeumont, Lierreux, Namur, Recht, Salm-Chateau, Spa and Vielsalm. With more areas exporting more hones, competition was higher and only the best would have been able to complete in the international market.

I have coticules from: Ambleve, Bihain, Herbeumont, Namur, Spa and some that are labelled as Old Rock. There are definite differences between these hones, as would be expected based on the fairly wide geographical range, but they aren't all excellent by virtue of the fact that they are vintage. The hones that were mined near Spa were regarded as being without equal in the rest of Europe when the stones were being worked in the 1800's, and my Spa hones are better than my other Belgians. My Namur hones are excellent also, Namur was one of the principle sources of export for hones in the 1700's up until the mid 1800's before their supply was superceded by the more familiar sources.

Also, way back when, Coticules were used primarily as razor hones, and those that were exported would have been selected based on their suitability for that particular purpose. So that would explain why vintage coticules may seem better to us as razor enthusiasts. With the rebirth of the straight razor being a much more recent phenomenon, the Coticule has been adopted by other fields as well and therefore the selection of the stone more recently, would have to embrace all applications, and not just razor hones.

As long as you are buying from a knowledgable source, who knows what you intend to use the stone for, I don't think one has to worry about how much better the vintage ones may have been. Coticules today are being retailed by many people who are primarily straight razor enthusiasts themselves, and therefore know what a good coticule for a straight razor is. Older stones are not better simply because they are older, it's just that certain excellent sources of hones may have been worked out may years ago, and as the stones became more unavailable so they become the subject of myth.

Kindest regards,
Alex

'll sell my soul for a Spa mined coticule.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

'll sell my soul for a Spa mined coticule.

Oh Jimmy,
Given the number of quality hones you have...surely there isnt much of your soul left, in your possesion?

Mac

Originally Posted by McWolf1969

Oh Jimmy,
Given the number of quality hones you have...surely there isnt much of your soul left, in your possesion?

Mac

It's vintage soul Mac, from the 1940s .... better than the soul that came later.

Back in the early days of SRP four years ago or so, there was no Bart here, and no one had made a systematic, in-depth study of coticules from different mines and veins, of differing degrees of hardness, etc.

The consensus wisdom on SRP at that time was that they were exclusively finishing hones, that you made a light slurry on them and did about 15-20 passes. A "good coticule" was one that produced a nice shaving edge from this procedure. A "bum coticule" was one that didn't. The procedure itself was not often questioned, and if you ask the poor guys selling coticules on SRP in those days – Howard Schecter and Tony Miller – they'll tell you they got a lot of returns citing customer dissatisfaction.

You can be pretty sure that those rejected stones would find happy customers on SRP today. That's thanks to Bart and a few other members who've taught us how coticules really work. A coticule that dulls your edge with light slurry and 20 passes might be a superlative polisher when used with water only, an excellent bevel setter when used with heavy slurry – or both. But in 2006 that champion coticule would probably have ended up in the reject pile.

It may well be the case that there are more "vintage" coticules out there on ebay, in estate sales and so on that fit the 20-passes-on-light-slurry paradigm. That is certainly my impression, and it was the impression of SRPers back in the day, when the prejudice against "new" coticules took root. If so, this could simply reflect the fact that barbers also tended to use coticules this way (for quick touch-ups using light slurry), and the stones they held on to as "keepers" are those now making their way onto ebay and so on.

But it's not something you have to worry about now, because we know a lot more about these stones than we did three years ago. The kind of coticule that works well with light slurry + 15-20 passes is only one kind of coticule, and not even necessarily the best kind. It depends what you're looking for. There aren't really any "bum coticules" (unless they're cracked or have serious inclusions or something), because all are good finishers when used with water only. Beyond that, they have differences that are either advantages or disadvantages depending on what you want. The key is to buy from a seller who knows these stones; they don't have to have a PhD from the Bart University of Coticule Science; they just need to be able to tell you with confidence, this one cuts fast enough to set bevels when used with heavy slurry, or this one's painfully slow even with slurry but it's as fine at the upper end as an Escher, etc. Each of these things represents a relevant piece of intelligence if you're planning to put the stone to use. Whether the stone was mined yesterday or in the 1920s, on the other hand, does not.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

It's vintage soul Mac, from the 1940s .... better than the soul that came later.

ROFL! Good one Jimmy. I bow to your superior vintageness...

Mac

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I don't buy into the comments about "good" stones were mined back in the day, while the "bad" ones were left behind. You think the miners could tell whether or not a chunk of Coticule was bad without first extracting, cutting, and flattening a surface for testing?

I assume Miners first did cut small peace test that stone then go head dig it in more or leave it alone.
This will be easier then vise versa.

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

The question to ask is, who is calling vintage Coticules "vintage"? Sellers who are trying to make an extra buck no doubt.

They are natural hones, all probably billions of years old, so why is a hone mined, say 100 years ago any more vintage than one mined tomorrow? Because it has been out of the earth and exposed to the elements for a century? I don't think so.

I don't buy into the comments about "good" stones were mined back in the day, while the "bad" ones were left behind. You think the miners could tell whether or not a chunk of Coticule was bad without first extracting, cutting, and flattening a surface for testing? If so, then why is there allegedly still some discarded chunks of Coticule left outside the mine(s) from the miners? Surely they wouldn't have discarded it, if it were good enough to be sold to the public.

Thank you O_S. You hit the nail right on the head. That's exactly what I think.....

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

'll sell my soul for a Spa mined coticule.

I offered the same deal in return for a Devonshire Oilstone, but seeing as my soul is tarnished beyond repair I didn't get any takers.

Other sources of vintage coticule hones I found going through the disorganised pile I use as a filing system are: Liege, which seems to be a very early source, pre-dating Nmaur; Ottrez and Stavelot. I don't have any of these, not that I'm aware of anyways, so I can't comment on how these compare to the currently available Coticules.

Of the types that I do have I can add the following background information from various sources I have found.

Ambleve was a source of well regarded razor hones, going back centuries. Bihain stones were the stone of choice in the Sheffield cutlery trade (although I'm not sure if the source is referring to the industry as a whole, or a specific branch). Those of Herbeumont are described as being superior in both extent of the beds and quality of the finished article. The Namur stones were described as being equal to the Turkey Hones back when the Turkey stones were the most revered hones on the market. Incidentally, and I'm afraid this doesn't add anything to the New vs. Vintage debate, it was common for synthetic hones at the time to be made with two different colour layers in order to mimic the look of the Namur stones because they were so highly regarded.

Kindest regards,
Alex

Just a few thoughts.

While in the ground, as far as I'm concerned a rock is the most antique thing that exists period. Once the material is mined and processed it has then been reborn as a manufactured item and from that point on is used and after so many years it becomes vintage or antique like any other manufactured item. How about a car. The steel has been mined from a rock. Maybe more involved than a hone but the concept is the same.

As far as old and new it all depends on the location. When you mine any economically sought after material in the ground very often the best quality stuff is removed first. The remaining slowly or sometimes very rapidly deteriorates or disappears totally. However there are plenty of mines where the deposits are so large the quality is the same decade after decade so it all depends on the material and the location.