Chinese and Coticule

What's the difference? Is a Chinese, say 12K a natural stone, just from China?

Coticule is just a natural stone, right?

To my understanding a coticule can be used for well, just about anything? I'm still learning here... But seems like with slurry you can do a lot of things you'd need harsher grits for and then with water you can do fine finishing. Is this right? Okay, if it is right, is the same so for a Chinese stone?

Why one over the other?

Then we get into the Belgium or Belgian blues or whatever they are...is that another coticule just from that area? I know all are likely based on preference and none better than the other, I suppose.

Sorry, lots of questions. Perhaps this should be in the newbie section....

A Coticule is a Belgian whetstone. More about it here: Belgian Hones - Straight Razor Place Wiki.

Some more natural hones here: Category:SRP Hone Database - Straight Razor Place Wiki.

The ultimate resource for Coticules is Bart's site at Welcome to Coticule.be - home of the famous Belgian Coticule Whetstone.

Regards,
Robin

They are both natural stones. They come from different parts of the world and have different characteristics. The Chinese stone is very hard and slow cutting. While slurry will speed up the cutting power somewhat it is nowhere near as versatile as the coticule. The Belgian blue is in the same strata of rock as the yellow coticule and sometimes they can be harvested together to form a combo hone. These combos are rare and expensive. In past years they were glued together to reinforce the yellow. Nowadays slate is the normal backing for the yellow. It is a very delicate stone and easily broken. BeBerlin has given you the links you need to study on them and draw some conclusions.

I'm a member over at coticule.be and I've learned a TON. More than I ever imagined. Just a few short months ago I vowed I'd never hone. Now, I see where it'd be actually fun and take an interest in it.

When you say whetstone, I see that also spelled as wetstone. Same? And, this just means a stone that needs to be wet in order to be used, right? So, aren't pretty much all stones wetstones/ whetstones? Am I missing something?

I probably am over-complicating things.

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Originally Posted by rickboone

Am I missing something?

I probably am over-complicating things.

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Maybe so, a lot of resources on this forum and on Coticule.be. Good that you've found an interest in honing. Once you get whatever stones you decide on it will really become interesting.... if not more confusing :)

"Whetstone" is just a generic term for any sharpening stone. It has nothing to do with water or being wet. "Whet" is an old word in English meaning to sharpen. The word isn't used much now outside of the compound word whetstone.

I've never heard "wetstone" except as a misspelling of whetstone. "Waterstone," however, refers to a class of sharpening stones, in contradistinction to oilstones. Oilstones you use with oil, waterstones with.... well, you get the idea. Waterstones are usually fairly soft.

Belgian coticules are versatile. Depending on how much slurry you use (if any) they can perform a variety of tasks from bevel creation to final finishing. Used without slurry they're very good if slow polishers. The Chinese stone is pretty much only usable for the final finish, and even for that it's pretty damn slow. But it's cheap (~$30, a good deal cheaper than a coticule), and most people regard the finish as excellent; some say better than the Belgians.

Whet - as in sharpen. Yes, many are used with water, but that's not where "whet" comes from. A coti is different from a C12k... well, all they have in common is that they are natural hones.

For newbs torn between the Chinese and Belgian stones, my recommendation is this. If you've got a workhorse set-up like the Norton 4/8K, or the Naniwa 3/8, or a DMT 1200 + a good midrange hone – at any rate, a setup that can handle bevel creation and basic sharpening – then and only then should you consider the Chinese 12K. It's only good for coming in at the end and making a good shaving edge that much better and smoother.

If on the other hand you're looking for something that can handle a lot of the main honing, you're better off with the coticule.

A final point of clarification: although you definitely can create a bevel with the coticule, I think it's something a lot of newbs would find challenging.

I'm back from reading the links and the posts here. Thank you all very much for the information!

Yes, I'm very lost. Ha ha.

I was under the impression a Belgian was a coticule. The article called a Belgian a Belgian or Belgian blue and a coticule a coticule. So, maybe the blue/ yellow deal as an earlier response talked about?

Then I read about BBW's and DMT's and I'm like WTF?

IS there a glossary or hone dictionary somewhere that says this stone is for this, and this is what is looks like? Wait, I've read that....

The problem is there's 89 stones that all do the same darn thing. And, then 80 of those will do the work of 10 other stones.

I'll get there...

I'm going to watch my video from Lynn again and focus on the honing sections.

As stated previously, I only have a Swaty right now. I did about 10...um...laps? What do you call it? Strokes? Well, that did NOTHING! I have read like 100-150 strokes. I will try that.

Are there any other honing videos out there? It seems like I've heard mention of one, but cannot recall.

Oh, and Holli4Pirating...okay so a Japanese stone, Chinese and coticule are all "natural" stones in that they come from the earth. But, what then are the differences? From that I've seen a 12K is a finishing/ polishing stone (trying to figure out difference in those terms), yet while a cotiucle cannot be rated per se (not sure why b/c a Chinese natural can) it's based on guess of the user, I've seen those guesses in the 10K and up range. So, their "grit" or rating of whatever that is is in the same range. Do they not do the same job? What am I missing? Just preference?

Thanks all!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rickboone

Oh, and Holli4Pirating...okay so a Japanese stone, Chinese and coticule are all "natural" stones in that they come from the earth. But, what then are the differences?

Thanks all!

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They don't actually have grit ratings, just rough approximations. The 12k isn't REALLY a 12 k in other words. The differences come in the hardness of the stones, the speed of cutting, and the finish they will leave on the edge.

As said before, the C12k is a slow finisher (will not be good for bevel setting etc, just for the final hone in your kit.). The coticule can do just about everything, depending on how you use it, but is mainly a finisher when used without slurry... and the japanese stones are a whole can of worms unto themselves.. each varies on the utility, speed, and final edge, most of the prized j-stones are crazy finishers, but many claim they can do it all. The Japanese stones can put you in a new tax bracket if you are not careful.

There are two types of Belgians, the Belgian Blue (aka Belgian Blue Whetstone aka BBW) and the Belgian coticule (which is yellow in color). Belgian stones have been used for centuries, but for most of this time only the yellow coticule was used. So most of the time if you just see a generic reference to "Belgian razor hone" or "Belgian waterstone" or any similar variation thereof, what's being talked about is the coticule.

Rick, if you'll allow me to be so bold, I think some of your confusion stems from the fact that you're looking at all these options as if you were leafing through a company catalog. In that frame of mind it seems illogical that there are so many options, so many different tools with so many different names doing much the same thing, etc. You have to remind yourself that these are not products put out by a company but natural stones that have been quarried for centuries in different parts of the world. The internet makes them all available at the click of a mouse and yes, their uses are often overlapping and there's some redundancy there, but being dumbfounded by this is like being dumbfounded by the fact that in the year 2010 you can go to the supermarket and buy Chinese noodles or Italian ones or even German ones and hey, what's the difference? Is it just preference? Well yes, I guess, but.... it also sort of depends on what you're cooking.

Again, the pros and cons:

Coticules
pro: versatility (workhorse sharpening, good finishing, and sometimes even bevel-setting)
con: expensive

Chinese
pro: excellent finishers (some say even better than coticules), very cheap and readily available in large sizes (an 8"x3" costs ~$35, versus $200-$250 for an 8"x3" coticule)
con: slow, not versatile (can be used only for finishing)

Good luck whatever you decide to do. My advice is not to overthink it in advance. If you choose one of the tried-and-true setups, you'll get the help you need here to make it work.

There are two elements to the stone in question. The grit and the abrasive. Grit is the size of the abrasive and the abrasive itself has properties based on its shape and "hardness".

I have not seen a post that states what the C12K abrasive is. The coticule is covered in the links above.

Other popular finishers, both natural and synthetic, are Eschers, Thuringians, Naniwa Super Stone, Naniwa Chosera, and Shapton Glass Stones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rickboone

Oh, and Holli4Pirating...okay so a Japanese stone, Chinese and coticule are all "natural" stones in that they come from the earth. But, what then are the differences? From that I've seen a 12K is a finishing/ polishing stone (trying to figure out difference in those terms), yet while a cotiucle cannot be rated per se (not sure why b/c a Chinese natural can) it's based on guess of the user, I've seen those guesses in the 10K and up range. So, their "grit" or rating of whatever that is is in the same range. Do they not do the same job? What am I missing? Just preference?

Thanks all!

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There are lots of different natural hones from different places around the world. They cover a wide range of grits and cutting speeds. They can be used with or without slurry; slurry makes them cut more aggressively and quicker, while without will give a finer finish. None can be given exact grit ratings because they cut based on the shape of the abrasives, the hardness of the abrasives, the way the abrasives are held together, and the way the abrasives are released. It seems easier to find natural hones that are above the bevel setting range; I'm sure there are some great naturals out there to set bevels with, but I've not heard of any myself. It seems to me that there are more natural hones in the "finishing" range than any other range, but it could just be that those are the ones that are talked about more/are most sought after.

Based on my own hones, my C12k gives a finer final polish than my coticule, so the edge cut my beard more easily. But the C12k was also much slower; I used it after my coticule. At the time, my honing progression was King 1k, BBW with slurry, (dilute slurry gradually), BBW with water, coticule with water, C12k with water. I couldn't estimate the grits on my C12k (I'm told they are not actually 12k) or my coticule.

There is a hone comparison table somewhere in the wiki, and there are a few threads that attempt to sort natural hones based on where they would fit into a progression/what their relative grit rating is. Sorry, but I don't have the links offhand, and I'm feeling a bit lazy tonight...

Or, if you throw out a grit range you are looking for, I'm sure members could step up and offer you some suggestions that you could look into further.

IIRC, you are somewhere in the Upper Westchester area? (or maybe I'm totally off). There was a thread about a NYC/Tristate area meet up, and if you can make it, you should try to attend. I'm most likely going to drive down for it, because I love meets. It's quite likely there will be lots of hones and razors you can try, and I'm sure someone there will do some sort of a honing demo/faq thing. If I'm there and people want me to, I'd be happy to help.

I think one reason the Norton 4/8 was considered to be a good hone for a beginning honer is because it is consistent, predictable and very well known among many if the new guy runs into problems and has questions. I guess the same could be said for some of the natural hones nowadays but the Norton 4/8 combo is a good place to start learning with finishers coming later. Just a thought.

+1 to Dylan's post.

The coticule (aka belgian hone) is a great hone, and can serve more than one purpose, unlike the C12k hone.

I also agree that the C12k stone will put a finer, more polished edge on your razor than a coticule. I've looked at them under a microscope to check, as well as shaved after both.

The BBW (Belgian Blue Whetstone) is also another good stone. Depending on which method you use to sharpen a razor (Unicot, or Dilucot) you may or may not have a use for the BBW stone. Personally, I use the BBW for my kitchen knives, and occasionally use it to put a keener edge on a razor before moving to a finer polishing stone.

There's no real set guidelines as to which hone to use. There's still a lot of experimenting to be done, and people prefer different stones. :shrug:

There may never be a "perfect" method for sharpening a stone, so you really do need to experiment and read to find out which combination of stones works for you, and you like.

Good luck!

+1 to Jimmy,Holli, and Avatar, and just to add to the confusion... even when you are talking about coticules and BBW's or other naturals, you must approach them on a stone by stone basis. While they will be similar, some coticules for example are much faster than others. Same goes for other naturals.

I'm a long time stone fondler who buys knives to have n excuse to buy more stones.

Recently I discovered I could come up with even more reasons to buy rocks by using a straight razor. Fortunately for my budget, I already bought them.

They've not gotten cheaper these last few years, nor have the good ones become more plentiful. I'll say I own the Chinese and a very nice combo coticule, and the chinese I'd sell if necessary or even convenient, and the coticule would be some extortionate unpayable number, as it's really not for sale.

I can't see doing without a combo-coticule, and the blue side is both different and very useful. I use it on almost all my kitchen knives, and it gets them sharp in a big hurry. Few of them go on the cream side, they have to be especially fine grained, 'singing' steel.

And then there's the japanese that's nearly finer than the chinese and lots pricier and harder to source, and THEN the chinese which in a pinch I'd replace with a strop and diamond spray. I happen to think in a few years the chinese stones will be somewhat more expensive, and owning an extra wouldn't be silly, but they'll still have a very small market.

Wow, this is really starting to come together.

Thanks everyone.

I'm in S. Carolina, not NY. I have a good friend in Westchester. Perhaps that was from a prior conversation about a visit there? Not sure...

So, here's what I'm thinking I will get. (in time)

- Coticule
- C12K, due to being an even smoother finisher

Now, looking for something more of a bevel setter. I know it can be done on the coti. Recently, I had the opportunity to experiment with a coti. One razor, it was the only stone needed. Produced a great edge. Another razor needed the aid (I needed it) of DMT. I THINK the DMT's were 800 and 1200??

So, would a DMT or a Norton 4/8 be a better choice? Which is less expensive?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rickboone

Wow, this is really starting to come together.

Thanks everyone.

I'm in S. Carolina, not NY. I have a good friend in Westchester. Perhaps that was from a prior conversation about a visit there? Not sure...

So, here's what I'm thinking I will get. (in time)

- Coticule
- C12K, due to being an even smoother finisher

Now, looking for something more of a bevel setter. I know it can be done on the coti. Recently, I had the opportunity to experiment with a coti. One razor, it was the only stone needed. Produced a great edge. Another razor needed the aid (I needed it) of DMT. I THINK the DMT's were 800 and 1200??

So, would a DMT or a Norton 4/8 be a better choice? Which is less expensive?

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DMT comes in a wide range of grits from 120 to 8000 six or seven steps.
Some folk like the 8000 DMT and go strait to the strop from it.


The Norton 4/8K combo stone is a common work horse in razor land.
Depending on your beard it might be the only hone you ever need.

You can price them yourself...
You are comparing a N4/8k with a DMT pair ...
My bet is that the Norton is less expensive
but the web can discover bargains.

A Chinese 12K is perhaps the least expensive natural finisher
to follow a 8k hone. A fine Coticule to equal it might be a lot
more expensive. see Barts notes on different Coticule stones
in his 'vault' pages.

While the C12K is slow, slow is not a bad thing....

As a first rough approximation think of a Coticule with a thick slurry as
the 4K side of a Norton and with water only as the 8K side but slower.

My side bet is on you buying a Norton 4/8 followed by
a C12K at which time you will be fully infected with HAD
and then a select a Coticule and then a couple barber
hones and then a stack of Shapton's or perhaps Naniwa
Super Stones and then....

If you want to set bevels, I would recommend you get a 1k hone. If you are looking for the cheapest, I had good luck with a King 1k, but I have heard from others they are not the most consistant hones. I also have a Norton 1k that I like. Naniwa or Shapton would also be good. You could then see if your coti with slurry cuts fast enough to use that right after the 1k and, if not, pick up some midrange hones; the Norton 4/8k is one great option there, as are Shaptons or Naniwas.

It's all a question of are you happy with the results you can get from your hones.

I don't want to thread hijack, but I'm in the same situation as rickboone.

I'm a str8 noob and none of the hones I already own would be appropriate for str8s (save for the barber hone passed on down to me from my grandfather). I want to get just basic hones to keep my razors in good condition and to bring factory-new to shave-ready.

I've been following this thread and trying to follow the advice. But there is a lot of information that can be hard to digest. I know it is hard to come up with one 'right' answer to this question, but which of the following combos would be a good, basic, beginner setup:

Norton 4k/8k + C12k
BBW/Coticule (either combo or separate) with or w/o the C12k
Naniwa 5k/8k/12k combo
Sharpton 4k/8k/16k combo

Of course, getting a DMT D8C or Lapping Plate to go with these as well.

I know YMMV, just trying to distill this info into some basic combos and recommendations for newbies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HBirdman80

I know it is hard to come up with one 'right' answer to this question, but which of the following combos would be a good, basic, beginner setup:

Norton 4k/8k + C12k
BBW/Coticule (either combo or separate) with or w/o the C12k
Naniwa 5k/8k/12k combo
Sharpton 4k/8k/16k combo

Of course, getting a DMT D8C or Lapping Plate to go with these as well.

I know YMMV, just trying to distill this info into some basic combos and recommendations for newbies.

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From everything I've read on SRP, any of these set ups would be just fine. I bought the Norton combo and C12K first and later the BBW/coticule. It is probably just a function of having practiced more by the time I got the BBW/Coticule, but I seem to get better results with the latter. But if Lynn ran a honing business on the Nortons for years and years, obviously that stone works just fine too. Folks seem to rave about the Naniwas too and to a less frequent degree, the Shaptons. So I think I'd decide based on price and personal inclination and recognize that the most important factor is technique, mainly getting one's stroke down perfect.

I would suggest any but the bbw/coti. Naturals are great and fun, but much more difficult to learn on because there are a huge number of variables, slurry and slurry dilution being two biggies that are tough to master.

I am trying to remember a post from a long experienced sharpening madman who really loves the chinastone. I almost bought one because i am a curious cat; and I suppose like everyone else because they are cheap. Almost.


??? there is no post like that

Coticule: every shaver should have one imho

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kevint

ICoticule: every shaver should have one imho

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I agree but getting a 1k bevel setter along with it will make life a lot easier. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I agree but getting a 1k bevel setter along with it will make life a lot easier. :)

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Would the 1k be needed for someone who is not restoring and just maintaining?

Also, would you get the BBW/Coticule combo, or just the coticule?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HBirdman80

Would the 1k be needed for someone who is not restoring and just maintaining?

Also, would you get the BBW/Coticule combo, or just the coticule?

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It would not necessarily be needed for someone just maintaining but it is good to have around in case of unforeseen circumstances. Murphy's law, y'know. :)

I think a combo coticule 6x2 or larger is ideal. That and a slurry stone. It is more money for the combo but IMO it is really worth it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

It would not necessarily be needed for someone just maintaining but it is good to have around in case of unforeseen circumstances. Murphy's law, y'know. :)

I think a combo coticule 6x2 or larger is ideal. That and a slurry stone. It is more money for the combo but IMO it is really worth it.

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Thanks. It is hard to wade through all of the information on the forums with everyone having HAD. I'll get there eventually, but for now I -- and I'm sure other noobs -- want to know what we need as the basics.

I agree that Coticules are absolutely great (and they happen to be my favorite finisher and honing tool). However, they are a little bit more of a challenge to learn how to use IMHO. For an easier introduction to honing, it really seems to me that Norton, Naniwa, or Shapton are the way to go. Just pick one and get after it. If you are set on a Coticule, you can be rewarded with tremendous shaves and satisfaction. However, plan on being patient and don't expect greatness right away.

Enjoy the process and have fun with it. :gl: