Shobu KARASU SUITA" Lv3.5 on the bay?

JAPANESE Natural whetstone!! "Shobu KARASU SUITA" Lv3.5 - eBay (item 260559363116 end time Mar-27-10 08:55:43 PDT)

is it just me or is this a pretty good deal? I thought suita's like this (and its big, 175 X 75mm) often went for several c-notes? or maybe suita is a much more general term than I thought? are there decent japanese naturals one can use for finishing a razor that one can get for under $100? what are good vendors?

his little table of natural hone properties is pretty interesting - though I dont quite know how to decipher it, or how hones I'm familiar with (e.g. a yellow coti) would fit in there.

Um, there's far more qualified people than me to be commenting on this hone, but just from my limited experience, I can tell you that not every Japanese natural stone (whether Suita or Nakayama or Karasu or whatever) is suitable as a razor hone. In fact, I understand that the subset of stones that actually work well as razor finishers is a very small minority of what are available out there today. The vast majority of them are used as knife and tool sharpeners, and like any other knife or tool sharpener, they just don't work at all on a blade that you are using on your face.

Also, there a quite a few people here who have commented on the fact that the rating system shown here is pretty much meaningless and doesn't tell you anything useful about what sort of stone you are getting in the mail. The rating system seems to have originated with another seller named 330mate, and now others on eBay are following it too. The bottom line is that the ratings are entirely qualitative and judgment-based, so calling any stone 3++++++ or 5++ is just silly.

The main thing that distinguishes reputable dealers from others, in my opinion, is their willingness to send you a stone (or 3 or 5) and allow you an opportunity to TEST it out and keep it or not depending on how it works. If you are interested, Alex Gilmore of The Japan Blade works like this. His prices are considerably higher, but in my estimation, you get what you pay for here!

Hope this is useful.

yes, well, I certainly didn't go ahead and buy it. but I wasnt sure if he was advertising something too-good-to-be-true, or if I just couldnt tell why this wasnt a very good stone (or very good for razors).

thanks for the tip on the reliable seller, though.

May be I missed in the description, but it does not say its for razors.
Takeshi deals with knives and stones for knife sharpening primarily, so this stone would do for knives. As far as razors, I don't know, I know that razor suitable Karasu is rare and really expensive.

yikes - japan blade's hone are mostly $1k, $2K, $3K...1-2 at the $600 point. no wonder shapton is doing a brisk business.

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Originally Posted by JeffE

. The bottom line is that the ratings are entirely qualitative and judgment-based, so calling any stone 3++++++ or 5++ is just silly.
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intersting what you say about the history of the rating system, but I'm not sure I agree with this conclusion. the fact is that when it comes to natural stones on their side and sharpness ont he other, there just is no way to measure the relevant qualities scientifically. it is ALWAYS going to be qualitiative and "judgment based." of course, if it's the case that sellers abuse these ratings and mislead customers about their products, that's a problem - but that's not the fault of the ratings system.

Again, I don't mean to sound like I'm Alex Gilmore's brother-in-law, because I'm not, but there IS a very scientific and reproducible way of evaluating these stones. If you look on Alex's site, he will show you a microphotograph of a blade polished using an 8k stone, a 16k stone, a 30k stone, and then the stone that you are evaluating. If you look at the structure of the abrasions, you can confirm that approximate "grit" of the stone -- it's that easy. Alex also provides photographs of each stone's slurry under several different standard conditions so you can evaluate how fast or slow the slurry will develop.

So why doesn't 330mate and others do this sort of testing? Because it takes too much work, plain and simple, and 330mate and others would rather just give you some mumbo-jumbo about 3+++++ or 5++++++++++ stones.

Don't take my word for it, however. I'm not an expert, just a buyer and user of these stones. Instead, ask Old School. Ask SiRed. Ask Jim R. Heck, even Lynn will tell you that these "HGAL" ratings have very little connection to the actual stone that you receive from the vendor.

Also, for the record, Alex sells lots of koppas that cost $100 to $400, and at least when you buy one of these, you know it's a decent stone for the job. Compare that to purchasing 2, 3 or 4 stones on eBay that aren't at all suited to what you are trying to do, and you'll see why Alex might actually be cheaper in the long run.

That stone is not mean to for straight razors. Seller does mention which one is for straight razor suitable.
I think Alex is a great seller. He even sends you the stone and you test them in case you don't like them he pays back shipping too(which is not fair to him).

I dont know anything about this particular stone, but I have purchased two others from him. One described as a shobu "pale purple" and a shobu asagi. Both are good stones and I have polished with and shaved off both. If you contact him he will tell you which ones he thinks are suitable for razors, I think you have to take his advice with a grain of salt, though, because I dont think he has any experience with razors. IMO there are bargains out there but there are also wastes of money, I have a couple of each example.:) I still say my japanblade stone is far superior(naratuki), but it also cost 5 times as much, but is also 3 times as big. Metalmasterjp also has a webpage where he sells his higher grade stones, which is where I got my asagi. If I was to choose a bargain stone between him or 330mate, I would go with him. This is based on comparing my two 330mate stones(cracked, toxic inclusions) to his(clean, no cracks or inclusions). IMO though, if you want a guaranteed good razor finisher, pay the money and go with Japanblade, or Old_School, or one of the fine members stones on the classifieds which have been used by them and can be vouched for by them. Good luck.

This one looks better: JAPANESE Natural water stone !! "Shobu ASAGI" Lv4.5 - eBay (item 260558671742 end time Mar-26-10 03:39:46 PDT)


And too: #7 Natural Ohira JAPANESE SHARPENING STONE RAZOR HONE - eBay (item 150402096881 end time Mar-03-10 08:53:45 PST)

First you need to decide what approximate size you need. After finding a 30mm wide coticule I found I like that width. Length is always a plus but if you can manage on less.

3.1/2 inches as is the ohira suita is pretty short. (depends on how well you can do with circles and side sharpening i guess.) Nevertheless, a nice rock. I have a similar one-.

I have not seen the point of spending 500 on a razor hone, other than simply to have it. We could compare its value on shave quality, to other natural stones, or synthetics.

I know I have good stones because they can compare in speed to synthetics. yet finish finer than my coti or 8k. The soft, smelly, muddy ones generally do not get me the best razor edge.

Karasu: probably not what you need : Shobu Karasu stone | Waterstone | Wood working tool, Japanese wood working tool shop.

A lot of us who've asked Japan Tool (i hope you eat meat) for a specialized razor hone have typically ( from who ive spoken with here) ended up with asagi. That or a hard_ish , fine suita have given me best results.

hmm, very helpful what you say jasongreat - i.e. one *can* get a good stone from him (and he is more reliable and hones than others), for (what I consider) a reasonable price, though it is not guaranteed and (of course) wont be as good as the 3-5 c-note ones. but since those are totallly out of my range right now, this does present a reasonable possibility - if I am careful, and if he is willing to take it back if it doesnt work out.

and thanks for the links, kevins. that japantool site is very interesting. to answer your question I am *very* happy getting a small stone (say 30-40mm wide and only 3-4 inches long) - I would mch rather have to struggle and put more effort into using a small stone than have no stone at all, or a much worse stone.

why is it only japan that has these natural hones? cant be that they only naturally exist there. must be that they just are the only ones who mine them and use them properly. which means there are beautiful natural hones all over the place, waiting for SRP pioneers to take out their pickaxes and find them! hit the Cascades, Appalachia, the Urals, the Atlas mountains! fine the hones! maybe we can retrain some of the truffle-hunting pigs or dogs to sniff out a super-sweet suita.

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Originally Posted by Mijbil

hmm, very helpful what you say jasongreat - i.e. one *can* get a good stone from him (and he is more reliable and hones than others), for (what I consider) a reasonable price, though it is not guaranteed and (of course) wont be as good as the 3-5 c-note ones. but since those are totallly out of my range right now, this does present a reasonable possibility - if I am careful, and if he is willing to take it back if it doesnt work out.

and thanks for the links, kevins. that japantool site is very interesting. to answer your question I am *very* happy getting a small stone (say 30-40mm wide and only 3-4 inches long) - I would mch rather have to struggle and put more effort into using a small stone than have no stone at all, or a much worse stone.

why is it only japan that has these natural hones? cant be that they only naturally exist there. must be that they just are the only ones who mine them and use them properly. which means there are beautiful natural hones all over the place, waiting for SRP pioneers to take out their pickaxes and find them! hit the Cascades, Appalachia, the Urals, the Atlas mountains! fine the hones! maybe we can retrain some of the truffle-hunting pigs or dogs to sniff out a super-sweet suita.

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So has small stones so ask him and he will show you whats in stock.

There was a thread a few days a o about that, and I think the consensus was that its not profitable to research and mine stones with limited marketability. There is abundance of synthetics out there. The Japanese mines have been in existence for many hundreds of years.

I have purchased several stones from 330 mate and from takeshi (metalmaster) and one from japan blade. I must say I paid a whoooooooooole lot more for the stone from japan blade and while all of my jnats are good stones and the japan blade one is just unreal if I die I want to be burried with that stone its that good so clean pure and magical... yes I love that stone. Bottom line if I could I would only purchase from japan blade or other people selling the good stuff. I guess you could say its like buying a mastro livi and a gold dollar or double arrow they will both shave but at the end of the day the mastro livi does something intangible that makes it that much better and worth paying that much more for it, then again not everyone thinks this way.

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Originally Posted by Memorael

I have purchased several stones from 330 mate and from takeshi (metalmaster) and one from japan blade

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Do you mind if i ask what the rough prices were of the different stones? Paying 2000 for one from japan blade is real different than 300-400, in my book. Would you say that the stones from 330 mate and takeshi were not worth it, in the end? My thinking is if i cant afford the $400 now, I might still get something great - something which puts my barber hone and maybe even my coti to shame - for $100. But there seems to be very little discussion of the japanaese naturals here other than the *very* expensive ones, the "true" ones, we might say.

hmmmm well let me put it this way 330 mate doesn't exactly show you what you are purchasing so I ended up paying around 200 dllrs for 4 different hones and just one is good which is my routine hone from takeshi I only use those on knives because the edge of those hones isn't good for razors either I mean all the stones purchased from these two will give good edges but some are rougher than others ranging from say a norton type edge to better than a coticule (which is that hone out of the 4) so you take your chances I personally think I got lucky and would probably just tell you to save your money and get a quality hone from a dealer around here.

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Originally Posted by Mijbil

Do you mind if i ask what the rough prices were of the different stones? Paying 2000 for one from japan blade is real different than 300-400, in my book. Would you say that the stones from 330 mate and takeshi were not worth it, in the end? My thinking is if i cant afford the $400 now, I might still get something great - something which puts my barber hone and maybe even my coti to shame - for $100. But there seems to be very little discussion of the japanaese naturals here other than the *very* expensive ones, the "true" ones, we might say.

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If you can avoid toxic inclusions and softness most jp kyoto stones will improve the coticule. Barber hones I can't say as I dont much care for the ones I have.

I believe it would be quite difficult to admit the 500 dollar stone was outdone by a 80 dollar one. Anyone who has a less expensive stone obviously has no business saying it is good or great- simply because it is not stamped.

While it is generally true - you get what you pay for. It is not true that simply paying more gets you more.

As I sorta mentioned in another thread I got the chance to use one of Alex's luxury stones. It was very, very nice. I did not ask what it cost but the ones it was said to compare to were "expensive" compared to my usual fare. Was it a great razor finish stone- not really.

There are many qualities beyond grit that make a stone suitable for this thing or that. It could have been with a bit more time and exploration I could make that stone do what I wanted; but I only sharpened a couple razors with it and later saw the edge improved by Escher.
However when sharpening a plane iron I found that piece to be the best stone I have ever used. None of these choices had anything to do with inclusions, scratchiness, or final actual abrasive size, abrasive power.

Who has a link to the shop in hawaii? MRL got it handy- let's see what he has:)

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Originally Posted by kevint

Who has a link to the shop in hawaii? MRL got it handy- let's see what he has:)

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Are talking about Afrmes Tokyo?
or Hidatool?

well - I was very close to trying one of these stones from Metalmaster (Takeshi), but I talked with Alex (thejapanblade.com) and he had one (oh, just the one! :p ) beautiful suita in a small size, just over 4" (though pretty wide, about a wide as it is long; it's a funny trapezoidal shape: http://www.thejapanblade.com/ebay/nakanishiji.jpg) for $150, which I just had to try.... I was already going to have to sell some pens to fund this damn RAD, but to right the scales of justice I'll have to sell this baby, a (modern) hand-lacquered japanese beauty.....

but the suita? the honing? the edge? MWAAHA!:beer2:.

thanks for your help, all.

Alex Gilmore is the best way I found to get a Japanese stone. He is a wealth of knowledge and he will do his best to get you the right stone. I have 2 stones from him and they work amazingly. Remeber, you get what you pay for.

STONE

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Originally Posted by Mijbil

well - I was very close to trying one of these stones from Metalmaster (Takeshi), but I talked with Alex (thejapanblade.com) and he had one (oh, just the one! :p ) beautiful suita in a small size, just over 4" (though pretty wide, about a wide as it is long; it's a funny trapezoidal shape: http://www.thejapanblade.com/ebay/nakanishiji.jpg) for $150, which I just had to try.... I was already going to have to sell some pens to fund this damn RAD, but to right the scales of justice I'll have to sell this baby, a (modern) hand-lacquered japanese beauty.....

but the suita? the honing? the edge? MWAAHA!:beer2:.

thanks for your help, all.

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well played.