Norton 8000 feature or flaw?

Hello. I’m new here and about two months into straight razor shaving. It was my new year’s resolution, and I decided to do a 100% plunge. I am now slowly learning the honing process. I purchased a new Norton 4000/8000. I’ve lapped and beveled it.

I’ve found that on the yellow, 8000 side there are approximately a dozen or more small holes scattered about. They are each about the size of a pinhole, but do vary slightly in size and shape. To the naked eye they might almost be mere spots/discolorations, but under a 16x loop they are holes, and with a 60x microscope they seem like rough-edged, gaping craters. I am assuming they are the remains of “air bubbles” during the manufacturing process. When honing, these seem to cause a clicking feeling as the blade passes over some of them. I’ve tried lapping through them (for as long as my patience would bear), but I either don’t remove enough material to eliminate them or as I go deeper I reveal new ones.

I’ve sent an e-mail inquiry to Norton Stones customer service but have not heard anything back. So, I am wondering:
1) are these holes a normal part of the manufacturing process, or is this stone flawed?
2) I would imagine the clicking sensation as the blade passes over may do more damage than good?
3) If I keep lapping and lapping patiently, will I eventually get “underneath” all of these? or is that futile?


Please note I see no such flaws on the white, 4000 side.

Thanks for your input or advice!

Jonathan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jlarryc

Hello. I’m new here and about two months into straight razor shaving. It was my new year’s resolution, and I decided to do a 100% plunge. I am now slowly learning the honing process. I purchased a new Norton 4000/8000. I’ve lapped and beveled it.

I’ve found that on the yellow, 8000 side there are approximately a dozen or more small holes scattered about. They are each about the size of a pinhole, but do vary slightly in size and shape. To the naked eye they might almost be mere spots/discolorations, but under a 16x loop they are holes, and with a 60x microscope they seem like rough-edged, gaping craters. I am assuming they are the remains of “air bubbles” during the manufacturing process. When honing, these seem to cause a clicking feeling as the blade passes over some of them. I’ve tried lapping through them (for as long as my patience would bear), but I either don’t remove enough material to eliminate them or as I go deeper I reveal new ones.

I’ve sent an e-mail inquiry to Norton Stones customer service but have not heard anything back. So, I am wondering:
1) are these holes a normal part of the manufacturing process, or is this stone flawed?
2) I would imagine the clicking sensation as the blade passes over may do more damage than good?
3) If I keep lapping and lapping patiently, will I eventually get “underneath” all of these? or is that futile?


Please note I see no such flaws on the white, 4000 side.

Thanks for your input or advice!

Jonathan

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All depends on the manufacturing process.

I'm not sure how the Norton 8000 is made, but some grinding wheels/abrasives are made not by the traditional vitrification process (firing in a kiln), but by making either a latex based slurry or an oxychloride type (same chemical process as concrete) manufacture whereby the stones are air hardened and then cured. There could be other methods too, but these are the types I am aware of.

If the 8000 is made by either of those methods, those holes represent airbubbles hitting the surface.

My Norton had bubbles in the top eight of an inch (~1mm).
They never got in the way though.

Welcome to SRP. I had a combo stone that I sold and I've got a pair of single grit 4s and 8s and no holes. If you feel it when you hone that would bother me enough to ask the vendor for a replacement. OTOH, under magnification if the edge isn't showing any negatives as a result of the clicking maybe it is harmless.

Pin head size holes ? you should be fine. just soak it and use see what happens.
Instead of holes if you had some inclusions or anything else then you should worry about it. gl

Not sure if I need to be concerned. Right after posting, I did get a reply from Norton, requesting further information. I only have one macro lens for my camera, so this photo was the best I was able to produce for Norton, which I'll try to attach here. The ruler scale is 100ths of an inch.

This is typical of these holes. I do find if I REALLY soak the stone and keep the 8000 side covered with water, the blade will float right over the holes. It seems when the stone is drier that I begin to feel the blade pass over them.

I'm still just curious to know if all Norton 8000s have these little pock marks, or mine is unusual.

I've no idea about the marks, but if you're not happy with the stone then I'd ask Norton for a replacement. As Jimmy says, the little clicks as you go over the marks would concern me enough to ask for a new one. Does the edge show signs of the holes after honing?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stubear

Does the edge show signs of the holes after honing?

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That is the question. If the answer is yes I would want a replacement or I would try lapping past the holes if I couldn't get them to agree.

FWIW, I just looked at mine under 45x and it does look the same as yours but no holes. :gl:

Being new to straight razors and even newer to honing, coupled with honing an extra, non-shave ready razor to practice on, leaves me with limited judgment skills when it comes to looking at the razor under magnification. My best estimation using a 16x loupe and also 60-100x Radioshack microscope is that edge damage has been negligible to minimal.

I will run a test using a marked section of blade over a specific hole on the stone and see if several passes leave a variation on the edge of the blade. If nothing noticeable appears, I'll just assume these holes are a feature of the stone's finish and carry on. (note: it's really a two-part question: 1-should the holes be there? and 2-do the holes affect performance? but if the answer to 2 is "no", then I guess I won't be so concerned with the answer to 1. I should have the answer to 2 shortly.)

Thanks for the patient advice.

Jonathan

I have heard that this is typical of the newer Nortons which are made in Mexico. I have also heard that if you give them a good lapping, you'll get past the crap and into good hone.

But this is just what I have heard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

That is the question. If the answer is yes I would want a replacement or I would try lapping past the holes if I couldn't get them to agree.

FWIW, I just looked at mine under 45x and it does look the same as yours but no holes. :gl:

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+1 on the work with Norton for resolution.

Any quality vendor needs feedback and will do the right thing
by their customers. I was pleased but surprised by the advice here that
the surface of a new Norton often needs to be lapped away
but the improvement was real for me. The advice also made
sense the more I considered how a resin bonded hone might be made.
Take a jar of resin add a lot of super classified abrasive, mix very
very well, pour or extrude into a mold, cure the resin in an oven.

As anyone that has made a cake, candy or tried to cast bugs
and shells in plastic knows "bubbles are possible".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

+1 on the work with Norton for resolution.

Any quality vendor needs feedback and will do the right thing
by their customers. I was pleased but surprised by the advice here that
the surface of a new Norton often needs to be lapped away
but the improvement was real for me. The advice also made
sense the more I considered how a resin bonded hone might be made.
Take a jar of resin add a lot of super classified abrasive, mix very
very well, pour or extrude into a mold, cure the resin in an oven.

As anyone that has made a cake, candy or tried to cast bugs
and shells in plastic knows "bubbles are possible".

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I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be using a resin process for a stone like this. Resinoid abrasives are usually found in thin, reinforced metal cutting wheels or thick walled cups using very coarse abrasives. These are usually identifiable as resin based wheels turn dark brown/black after the oven, regardless of the color of the abrasive grain.

If anything, it would be a vitrified product, where the finished prdict has a color closer to that of the raw abrasive grain.

Oxychloride and Latex based wheels will have a more whitish to greyish blue tinge from the bonding agents.


Now I'm really going on memory here. 20 years ago, I worked in a grinding wheel factory for 3 summers (student work). Learned a lot about it at the time.

We did resinoid, vitrifed, oxychloride monster wheels as well as latex knife grinding wheels.

My combination 4k/8k Norton, which I purchased new back in early '08, is from Mexico. The 8k side is good, the 4k side was good for a while and then problems began. It has those microholes that pick up swarf, and the lodged swarf caused horrible chipping on my blade. I found I couldn't even do backhoning with it, it turned so gritty. Just a bad stone. It's an angel/devil stone, or a Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde stone. It started out nice, turned bad. Who knows, maybe if I dedicated myself to lapping off a ton of material it would turn "nice" again?

Here's the second image I sent to Norton - it shows the dispersion of holes across the entire surface of the 8000 side (major holes circled in pencil). One thing I noted was that there were indeed the beginnings or ends of other holes, too, not circled here - ones that had either yet to be uncovered fully by lapping or had been nearly removed by lapping. One or two of the holes also seem long and thin rather than circular or oval.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Desdinova

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be using a resin process for a stone like this. Resinoid abrasives are usually found
.......

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Perhaps the OP can ask Norton in the process of getting resolution on
this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

Perhaps the OP can ask Norton in the process of getting resolution on
this.

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I'm not sure as to how the 8000 would be made (the factory I worked at never went this fine)

But it would be nice to know for the rest of us for future reference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

Perhaps the OP can ask Norton in the process of getting resolution on
this.

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I don't expect to hear back from them for another week or so, per their last communication, but I'll see if I can get more information at that time.

Finally got a response from Norton:

"Yes, it does seem irregular to have such pitting. If you would like to exchange the stone please take it back to the retailer where you bought it. They can exchange it and then return it to us for credit."

hmm. They seem to make it a retail exchange issue between me and the vendor, rather than a manufacturer's exchange. Odd, since they acknowledge that it seems to be an irregular stone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jlarryc

Finally got a response from Norton:

"Yes, it does seem irregular to have such pitting. If you would like to exchange the stone please take it back to the retailer where you bought it. They can exchange it and then return it to us for credit."

hmm. They seem to make it a retail exchange issue between me and the vendor, rather than a manufacturer's exchange. Odd, since they acknowledge that it seems to be an irregular stone.

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As long as you get a new stone that is the important thing. It might be more convenient for you ..... if you bought it locally. Now I guess it depends on the vendor. Please let us know if the new stone has any issues.

Here's the thing: If the holes were just holes, then it would not be an issue as lots of synthetic hones have lots of holes. However, your holes are causing a clicking, so that means that your edge is getting hung up on the edges of the holes. That is absolutely positively not acceptable in my book. If you cannot lap out the trouble in a reasonable period of lapping, then you should definitely get a different hone.

It might make you feel better to know you are not Robinson Crusoe with this. There have been similar issues in the past with some of the Norton stones - relative to how many must be sold I do not think it is a huge issue, but holes in the occasional Norton seem to happen sometimes. For example:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...continues.html

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ter-stone.html

The solution in almost all the cases I can remember was a replacement stone from the good people at Norton.

Personally, I really love my Norton - it is my honing workhorse. I hope you can sort out this issue and start enjoying your new stone.

James.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jlarryc

Finally got a response from Norton:

"Yes, it does seem irregular to have such pitting. If you would like to exchange the stone please take it back to the retailer where you bought it. They can exchange it and then return it to us for credit."

hmm. They seem to make it a retail exchange issue between me and the vendor, rather than a manufacturer's exchange. Odd, since they acknowledge that it seems to be an irregular stone.

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That is actually quite normal for manufacturers. With larger companies, there is quite a bit of logistics and paperwork involved with returning items or receiving returned items.

The retailer is the one it was sent to originally, and they have all the information in place to deal with items returned from that retailer. If they have to deal with you that can get cumbersome. Additionally, shipping to private addresses etc will complicate things further because they can't just ship something usps low cost and hope it arrives.

I know some manufacturers do so, but generally, returns have to be handled through the retailer to keep things simple for both parties involved.

for example, if you bring it back to the retailer, it is their problem to get it to the manufacturer. If you had to send it, it would cost money. And what if it got lost? You'd have to insure it and use registered shipping (after all, how would they know you even shipped it if they receive nothing) which would be even more costly.

Trust me on this: if you can drop it off with the retailer, and pick up a new one free of charge, that is by far the easiest and cheapest solution for all parties involved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

It might make you feel better to know you are not Robinson Crusoe with this. There have been similar issues in the past with some of the Norton stones - relative to how many must be sold I do not think it is a huge issue, but holes in the occasional Norton seem to happen sometimes. For example:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...continues.html

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ter-stone.html

The solution in almost all the cases I can remember was a replacement stone from the good people at Norton.

Personally, I really love my Norton - it is my honing workhorse. I hope you can sort out this issue and start enjoying your new stone.

James.

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+1.

I had some issues with my norton 8K initially. But with a good lapping I was able to get past the surface that made the clicking sound and it has been smooth ever since then. The norton 1K- 4K -8K is generally the workhorse lineup for my honing progression.

I also had some issues with one of my nortons, I think it was a 4K. I had lapped it with the Norton lapping stone and I now believe it had imbedded some particles into the 4k.

I could feel clicking on the blade and noticed micro chipping under magnification. I scrubbed the blade with a 3M nylon pad until it felt smooth, sharpened a couple of kitchen knives on them feeling for clicks, then re-lapped with sand paper, then diamond plate.

I’ve never had a problem with them since. I just touch them up with a diamond plate occasionally.

I agree the 4&8k are the workhorses for me as well. Maybe you do need to get past the top 1/8 inch on some of them.


Marty