Thread: Norton 8000 feature or flaw?

Hello. I’m new here and about two months into straight razor shaving. It was my new year’s resolution, and I decided to do a 100% plunge. I am now slowly learning the honing process. I purchased a new Norton 4000/8000. I’ve lapped and beveled it.

I’ve found that on the yellow, 8000 side there are approximately a dozen or more small holes scattered about. They are each about the size of a pinhole, but do vary slightly in size and shape. To the naked eye they might almost be mere spots/discolorations, but under a 16x loop they are holes, and with a 60x microscope they seem like rough-edged, gaping craters. I am assuming they are the remains of “air bubbles” during the manufacturing process. When honing, these seem to cause a clicking feeling as the blade passes over some of them. I’ve tried lapping through them (for as long as my patience would bear), but I either don’t remove enough material to eliminate them or as I go deeper I reveal new ones.

I’ve sent an e-mail inquiry to Norton Stones customer service but have not heard anything back. So, I am wondering:
1) are these holes a normal part of the manufacturing process, or is this stone flawed?
2) I would imagine the clicking sensation as the blade passes over may do more damage than good?
3) If I keep lapping and lapping patiently, will I eventually get “underneath” all of these? or is that futile?


Please note I see no such flaws on the white, 4000 side.

Thanks for your input or advice!

Jonathan

Originally Posted by jlarryc

Hello. I’m new here and about two months into straight razor shaving. It was my new year’s resolution, and I decided to do a 100% plunge. I am now slowly learning the honing process. I purchased a new Norton 4000/8000. I’ve lapped and beveled it.

I’ve found that on the yellow, 8000 side there are approximately a dozen or more small holes scattered about. They are each about the size of a pinhole, but do vary slightly in size and shape. To the naked eye they might almost be mere spots/discolorations, but under a 16x loop they are holes, and with a 60x microscope they seem like rough-edged, gaping craters. I am assuming they are the remains of “air bubbles” during the manufacturing process. When honing, these seem to cause a clicking feeling as the blade passes over some of them. I’ve tried lapping through them (for as long as my patience would bear), but I either don’t remove enough material to eliminate them or as I go deeper I reveal new ones.

I’ve sent an e-mail inquiry to Norton Stones customer service but have not heard anything back. So, I am wondering:
1) are these holes a normal part of the manufacturing process, or is this stone flawed?
2) I would imagine the clicking sensation as the blade passes over may do more damage than good?
3) If I keep lapping and lapping patiently, will I eventually get “underneath” all of these? or is that futile?


Please note I see no such flaws on the white, 4000 side.

Thanks for your input or advice!

Jonathan

All depends on the manufacturing process.

I'm not sure how the Norton 8000 is made, but some grinding wheels/abrasives are made not by the traditional vitrification process (firing in a kiln), but by making either a latex based slurry or an oxychloride type (same chemical process as concrete) manufacture whereby the stones are air hardened and then cured. There could be other methods too, but these are the types I am aware of.

If the 8000 is made by either of those methods, those holes represent airbubbles hitting the surface.

My Norton had bubbles in the top eight of an inch (~1mm).
They never got in the way though.

Welcome to SRP. I had a combo stone that I sold and I've got a pair of single grit 4s and 8s and no holes. If you feel it when you hone that would bother me enough to ask the vendor for a replacement. OTOH, under magnification if the edge isn't showing any negatives as a result of the clicking maybe it is harmless.

Pin head size holes ? you should be fine. just soak it and use see what happens.
Instead of holes if you had some inclusions or anything else then you should worry about it. gl

Not sure if I need to be concerned. Right after posting, I did get a reply from Norton, requesting further information. I only have one macro lens for my camera, so this photo was the best I was able to produce for Norton, which I'll try to attach here. The ruler scale is 100ths of an inch.

This is typical of these holes. I do find if I REALLY soak the stone and keep the 8000 side covered with water, the blade will float right over the holes. It seems when the stone is drier that I begin to feel the blade pass over them.

I'm still just curious to know if all Norton 8000s have these little pock marks, or mine is unusual.

I've no idea about the marks, but if you're not happy with the stone then I'd ask Norton for a replacement. As Jimmy says, the little clicks as you go over the marks would concern me enough to ask for a new one. Does the edge show signs of the holes after honing?

Originally Posted by Stubear

Does the edge show signs of the holes after honing?

That is the question. If the answer is yes I would want a replacement or I would try lapping past the holes if I couldn't get them to agree.

FWIW, I just looked at mine under 45x and it does look the same as yours but no holes.

Being new to straight razors and even newer to honing, coupled with honing an extra, non-shave ready razor to practice on, leaves me with limited judgment skills when it comes to looking at the razor under magnification. My best estimation using a 16x loupe and also 60-100x Radioshack microscope is that edge damage has been negligible to minimal.

I will run a test using a marked section of blade over a specific hole on the stone and see if several passes leave a variation on the edge of the blade. If nothing noticeable appears, I'll just assume these holes are a feature of the stone's finish and carry on. (note: it's really a two-part question: 1-should the holes be there? and 2-do the holes affect performance? but if the answer to 2 is "no", then I guess I won't be so concerned with the answer to 1. I should have the answer to 2 shortly.)

Thanks for the patient advice.

Jonathan

I have heard that this is typical of the newer Nortons which are made in Mexico. I have also heard that if you give them a good lapping, you'll get past the crap and into good hone.

But this is just what I have heard.