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Has anyone else noticed the difference between BBW when it is associated with natural combos compared to the ones that are mined not continuous with the yellow? I now have two natural combos, one that I picked up from a member here. It seems like the BBW on these hones is much faster and almost feeling like the yellow in some respects compared to the huge hunk of BBW that I purchased seperately not formed next to the yellow.
There can be a lot of difference between one BBW and another, but I don't think the BBW on natural combinations is better than the separately mined ones, nor, as some seem to think, that vintage BBW is better than recently mined BBW. There are some natural combination BBWs that work great, but I've seen many which performed sub-par too, or which had inclusions that rendered them practically useless. The same goes for vintage BBW. You have to keep in mind that BBW was not mined as a hone; it was just used as backing. It was never selected for its honing properties.
Thank You for the info. With a total of four hones from this family, I would not consider myself an authority:) Still it struck me funny in that both of the combos I have the BBW is much faster cutter than my plain BBW, so you can at least understand my curiousity. Luckily neither of them have inclusions although neither would fit into the category of the finest even colored stones as well. The fact that as you have stated that the BBW was never mined for it's honing properties historically makes them fasinating to me based on my humble and limited exposiour to them.
M
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldengaerde
Are we talking about the blue belgian here? The backing used for the coticules is not the blue belgian material its slate. Blue Belgians certainly are well known hones and are mined as such just they are coarser than the coticules.
The difference between the plain Blues and the combo's is the proximity of the blue to the yellow in situ but that doesn't necessarity mean it's better quality. There are many reasons why any natural material can vary from piece to piece.
With a combo, it's probably a crapshoot for the blue, because (I would guess) the combos are selected for the coticule quality, not the BBW quality. As such, I think you are more likely to get a good BBW if you get a glued combo. Someone said somewhere that buying a natural combo is like buying a coti with a mystery hone attached.
Wow, so all of you are saying there are substantial differences in the BBW but my observation was just randomnd not the norm. To be honest, I have for most of my life poo-pood the BBW when ever it came up in coversation and nevr recommended it to anyone because the only one I knew was one that my father had that was really a poor example. Then years later in the last year or so, I stumbled on two of them out of the few I own that cut very fast, and the only thig lacking is they are on the small size. I ordered a 8X3 not too long ago and did not get so lucky, and it is hard to get suppliers to select specific BBW from my experience. As far as I am concerned now is I would love to get another larger size one with the superior cutting power...bu like you said it is a "crapshoot".Quote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
Yeah, there is a lot of variation BBWs as well as with coticules. There's been some experimentation by Bart, and he's working on establishing a technique to get good edges off of BBWs alone (without the need for chrom ox on the stone or any other pasted strop). I'm participating in a blind shave test (so to speak) where his techniques will be tested against a regular Unicot edge from a coticule and 2 BBWs (1 from a combo hone and 1 BBW only)
I'll have a thread showing the results after the testing is over.
That will be one to look foward to Paul!!Quote:
Originally Posted by richmondesi
We are. I specifically mentioned vintage BBW and used the past tense. BBW may be a well known hone now, but it wasn't when it was used as backing for Coticules. And as it wasn't, it wasn't mined as such, let alone selected for honing quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
That's what I wrote. Consistency of modern ones seems to be better however, as they are selected for their qualities as hones. Of the old ones, some happen to be very, very good, and others not so much. There's bound to be a correlation between Coticule vein and usefulness of the naturally bound BBW, but I haven't figured that out yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
As for Bart's test: yes, most interesting! - as is almost anything he writes on Coticules/BBW :bow
edit: notwithstanding the above, I still think that there are other natural hones that do what BBW does better and faster, and that for razor honers, there is no compelling practical reason to buy one.
Ouch!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldengaerde
I happen to agree - minus the "natural" part. I "upgraded" to the Naniwa 5k and 8k to replace my BBW/Coti because I find the synthetics to be faster and much more consistent. Price wise, I think the Nani 5k and 8k run about $100 for the both, and I don't know what a new coti or coti/bbw would be, but I would be surprised if you could get an 8 x 3 (or however big the Naniwas are) BBW and coti (even as thin as the Naniwas are) for the same price.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldengaerde
Granted, it is personal preference.
Based on my (current) preferences, I see no argument for any naturals, aside from finishers. Even then, synthetics and pastes can do very well too. (I use my Asagi and vintage Thurry because I happen to have them - gift and ebay luck, in that order.)
It is interesting that the bbw was thought to be just another rock back in the old days. When I got a natural coticule/bbw from a barber in Newark many years ago he made a point of telling me that the yellow side was the side to use for hoining and that the dark side was only to reinforce the yellow.
I have vintage coticules with blue glued to yellow. They used the blue as the reinforcement before they changed to slate. They used the bbw for cobblestones, fences and the like. Strange that they did not recognize the value of the blue rock for much of it's history but ...... that was the way it was. I have a natural coticule/bbw with a label glued on it completely covering the bbw that says "Old Rock" and some other hyperbole.
So way back when... they used bbw and then later went to slate. I'm not sure when they made the change. I have a number of naturals and all of the bbws are so close that I couldn't rate one as being better than the other. YMMV.
Here are photos of a couple of Old Rock hones. One still has the label glued to the bbw. I soaked the label off of the other because I use it. Point being that they sold these "Old Rock" hones with a label glued over the blue because they considered it to be unusable as a hone. Here also is a vintage "Salamander" with the bbw glued to the yellow. I have a few other bbw glued to yellow but I'm too lazy to take the photos. :)
I like the speckling on that coti Jimmy.
What a timely post-- I just used the BBW side of my natural combo for the first time yesterday, and was going to comment what a nice edge I got from it. When I lapped that side of the stone I noticed some interesting patterns (almost like you'd see on the coticule side, only darker)-- compared to my solo BBW which is pretty homogeneous.
-Chief
Yes, I have seen yellow/bbw combo with yellow bits here and there in the blue. Also veins of yellow in the side of the blue. Pretty cool looking.
I bought a BBW from Rob at Ardennes Coticule quite some time ago after w had had a discussion about the variations in BBWs. He personally selected for me a very fast cutting one with yellow spots. He said that the presence of the spots placed it somewhere between the usual BBW and the coticule - I estimate it at 5000+ grit. I have had a number of natural BBW/coticule combinations, and during lapping (some needed an inordinate amount of lapping - very, very dished) the yellow spots occur close to the join where one layer has been deposited on the next, so my theory is that the faster cutting BBWs come from very near the overlying (or underlying) coticule layer, and that the more usual blue that is used to make the glued combos is further back in the blue layer with little or no coticule inclusion. Just my opinion though.
Regards,
Neil
Quote:
Originally Posted by BHChieftain
So did both of you guys find the back BBW side was better than your pure blue? The difference on mine is night and day. I like the one in particular better than the bout coti I have. I do believe that these are worthy hones in thier own right if someone would take the time to pick them out. The color is different too. Wonder if that has anything to do with garnet concentration since that is what gives them thier abrasion power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
I would think when they grade these things after they are mined and cut they do it by size and appearance. I would be surprised if they tested them for results and in most cases I doubt you could tell just eyeballing them. So your left with the retailer do the actual testing to give you what you want in the stone.
I agree that the Blue isn't a stone much used. Its slow and there are many better choices out there. The Coticule though I think is a great finisher and it's my go to stone and I get great results on it.
You know, I can't really say. I just sold my solo coti and solo BBW, so unfortunately I can't run any experiments on 'em... so I could be that since I like the natural combo better it feels like it hones better...(where's that double blind study when you need it!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingfish
I was doing the coticule-only-slow-dillution method for a long time, and just the other day tried BBW+slurry followed by coticule + water approach. I got a really nice edge and will proably keep doing it that way for awhile. The other factor in my situation is the natural combo I have has only 5mm of yellow on it on one side, so I'd rather slurry up the thick BBW portion and save the coticule side as a finisher only.
-Chief
Believe me if you had a good one you would know and would not need a study. The plain piece of BBW that I have is pretty to look at, and huge hunk of stone, but it would do just as well as a building material compared to what is on the back of my naturals. I really don't like he honing feel of it either and to me that is just as importatant as other factors looking at it as a tool.9 And it will do a good job eventually but slowly.)Quote:
Originally Posted by BHChieftain
It s good that you will get use out of your BBW side in any event, I am sure it is a classy stone from what I am hearing you say..... Maybe we are very lucky to have ones with two functional sides.:)
Mike
I really like the blue. Not for razors, but for knives and axes.
These days I use the yellow to remove metal around the edge, and then I use the blue to polish the edge. This gives me sharper edges than doing it the other way around. I think this has to do with the fact that the yellow has more garnets and thus dulls faster while freehanding (it is less forgiving).
I also have a solid block of blue, and that works fast and gives good edges. I think there is a lot of variation, but no necessarily correlating to the proximity to the yellow layer.
I remember Bart mentioning a couple of very special coticules that cost a ridiculous amount of money because there were only a couple of them ever found, due to the fact that they were just the result of a fluke of circumstances.