DMT D8F for light lapping/stone cleaning work?

Hey guys,

here in Europe DMT´s are hard to come by.
They come either expensive or they do not at all.

The only DMT easyily available are 120, 600 and 1.2k, ie XXC, F and EF.
Prices are equal.

I have a system for lapping my stones with loose abrasive up to 400.
This leaves the stones completely flat but scratched. (yea, I´m picky)

What I am looking for is not a hole lapping solution,
but something quick to clean stones from debris
and refining freshly lapped stones like Naniwa.
Also the stone should fit in as bevel setter for str8 and especially kitchen knives, followed by a 1.000.

DMT f and EF come to mind, but I wonder if these would stick to the hone to be lapped badly.
Did anybody ever use DMT F or EF for light lapping/cleaning/refining?


Thanks

the finer MT tent so stick, but if you lap under running water you will not have as hard a time.Have you tried Atoma diamond plates, they are supposed to stick less and be better than DMt in performance.

I lap all of my stones with a 325 grit DMT, and that works great for me. This stone also doubles as a major edge repairer for razors with large chips or that require some serious bevel correction. I then move onto either 1/4/8/16k Shaptons or 1/3/8/12k Naniwas.

In terms of cleaning the hones, I just wipe them with a green backed sponge to get the swarf off them. Eventually they will clog/glaze though, and then I just give them a few laps on the 325 again.

1k is really a bevel setting stone, and you shouldnt need to drop below that unless there are things like chips in the edge that you want to remove. Starting at below 1k for every razor will wear away a lot of steel unneccessarily.

Some people here do use the 1200 grit DMT as a bevel setter, but I have the 1k Shapton and Naniwa stones that fill that gap very well.

You guys are quick!

I sharpen many different blades in any condition including some really messed up kitchen knives.
So far I have been using a polycristalline no-name diamond stone for this kind of work. Not very pleasing.

Atoma blades are even harder to find here. I am happy at least these three DMT are available...

I have been thinking about the 325 very much, too.
Unfortunately it is not an option, because no vendor in germany carries it
and I already have a basic lapping solution.

I will just think about the 600 for a while.
It seems to be a good way to clean my finer stones wich I do after every session.
I have to do so, because my wide beveled kitchen knives reaaaally clogg the stones.
They turn completely black after one session!

I was only wondering if the DMT Fine would stick too much to move it.
Maybe I will just give it a shot

If you are doing the lion's share of the lapping with something else you might get by with a higher grit plate for cleaning the swarf while honing and not ruining the plate. OTOH, you may wear the plate out quickly. Sham wore out a D8E 1200 using ir for a lapping plate.

Here is what Dia Sharp says on lapping waterstones;

Which grit is the best grit to use to flatten my Japanese water stones?

We recommend a DMT® coarse grit (45 micron, 325 mesh) or extra coarse (60micron, 220 mesh) 8" or 250 mm DuoSharp¨ bench stone for flattening Japanese water stones. It’s fast and easy. Make sure there is plenty of water to flood the surfaces of the stones when flattening to wash away the slurry made by the flattening process. View Color-coded Grit chart

Atoma,
can be purchased only from Japan as faras I know
a few sources;
Japanese Diamond whetstone #1200 grid for professional - eBay (item 250620327688 end time May-22-10 17:19:03 PDT)
I think it can ship SAL so no fee.

Tsuboman 'Atoma'. : Tools from Japan, Japanese woodworking tools direct from Japan.

those are same size but cheaper, I am not sure what is the difference, but you could ask.

Hope this helps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lesslemming

I have been thinking about the 325 very much, too.
Unfortunately it is not an option, because no vendor in germany carries it
and I already have a basic lapping solution.

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Have you tried this German vendor? He seems to carry the 325 (pretty expensive though).

RasurPur Online Shop - The finest tools for a perfect shave

I have used dmt 325 for years and it was ok. problem was it didn't last long enough for me.
Now i bought dmt 125 a xx course. it is so wonderful . i do all work on 125 then move 325 couple laps stone ready.
hope this helps

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I have used dmt 325 for years and it was ok. problem was it didn't last long enough for me.
Now i bought dmt 125 a xx course. it is so wonderful . i do all work on 125 then move 325 couple laps stone ready.
hope this helps

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Same here. The XX 125 eats hones for breakfast and cries for more. It does leave deeper scratches though. The 325 takes care of those and between the two way less work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lesslemming

You guys are quick!


I have been thinking about the 325 very much, too.
Unfortunately it is not an option, because no vendor in germany carries it
and I already have a basic lapping solution.

I will just think about the 600 for a while.
It seems to be a good way to clean my finer stones wich I do after every session.
I have to do so, because my wide beveled kitchen knives reaaaally clogg the stones.
They turn completely black after one session!

I was only wondering if the DMT Fine would stick too much to move it.
Maybe I will just give it a shot

---

Hi,

You can find DMT stones from Germany at Dick.

Just watch out when lapping or cleaning your hi grit hones with coarser stones that it is the right stone that gets lapped. Softer always takes the wear. There's some difference in softness between natural and synthetic stones.
I've been using wet/dry sandpaper (about 220 - 600 grits) glued on a sheet of glass to lap my hones. Works ok.

I know the sources from Germany (Dick and Martin)
both do not carry the 325, so it is not an option.
Dick carries 600, 120 and 1.2k, Martin carries 600, 1.2k and 8k.
I can´t get it here. Importing from other countries is no option either,
because I have to pay tax fees about 20-30% with incredible waiting times.
That´s the way things work in Germany

But like I said, I already have a nice basic lapping solution
and I just need something for refinement and cleaning
so the XC or XXC would be of no use.
The EF would be too fine, so I hope the 600 will do the work

//Edit:
I have made my descission!

The DMT 600 it is. I will share my impressions with you guys

1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper, that is all I use anymore. For me, diamond plates are history. The only use I have for a diamond plate is a 125 and thats for lapping new hones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lesslemming

...
Did anybody ever use DMT F or EF for light lapping/cleaning/refining?
...

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I've used the DMT 600 a lot for setting bevels and sharpening knives; and some bevel work on razors. I actually carry a DMT in my back pocket just for sharpening knives; and occasionally setting knife bevels on friends' knives. It's a 600 mesh.

I normally prefer the 325 for knife bevels; but the 600 will work just a bit slower and is, I believe, better suited for knife edge touch-up.

I've used it several times for raising a light slurry on the harder hones (strictly an experiment, not a normal practice for me).

I see you've made up your mind about the 600. I hope it works as well for you as it has for me.

Well, well, my DMT D8F 600mesh arrived yesterday.
I spend some time breaking it in with a hard tool and it went nicely.

http://lesslemming.le.ohost.de/Messe...e/DSC01295.JPG

The stone cuts very fast but leaves quite a smooth finish,
for such a "harsh" stone. It doesn´t feel harsh, either.
My Shapton Pro 2.000 was capable of removing its scratches!
Nice one.

http://lesslemming.le.ohost.de/Messe...e/DSC01294.JPG


But as far as lapping goes, I might have been better off with the DMT 325.
What I planned works OK (ie keeping the stones clean, not really flattening them) although sucction is a bit of a problem.
Do some laps, rinse, some laps, rinse...

But the thing that really astonished me was the smooth surface the DMT left on my stones.
So far I tried cleaning/lapping the Naniwa Super 8k and 10k and a Shapton Pro 2k.
All of them got a mirror polished surface!
I was expecting a little bit of dullness or even a scratch or two.
But the surface is just dense and clean.
The surface is so smooth I was wondering if this ain´t a bit too much.
The stones of course work at their best afterwards!

I was wondering how this is possible.
Even 1.500 grit Sandpaper or a 1.000 Waterstone don´t leave stones this bright.
I wonder if the 325 would leave a nice finish too at a reasonable sucction rate.
I compared the DMT to my Sandpaper and obviuosly this was a mistake,
because 325 sandpaper leaves my stones very scratched...

Anyway, the DMT Fine does all the jobs I want it to do.
It serves as a nice bevel setter for neglegted razors and kitchen knives,
and it cleans and polishes my previously flattened stones
in reasonable amount of time and effort.
I am just curious if the 325 would do the same
but give a nicer feel.
How about sucction and D8C?

As far as too much wear is concerned,
I watch out for slurry and don´t lap stones that turn black during flattening
from abraded nickel. So far there has been no problem.

And BTW I was wondering a lot what DMT are made of.
I know now!

DMT consist of a steel block that has been plated with a nickel diamond composite, probably in a currentless plating method.
The surface consists of pure Nickel (with embedded diamonds).
A warning on the package says "This product contains nickel, a chemical known to the state of california to cause cancer".
No big deal, the danger lies in inhaling Nickel wich is quite task
if it is bond to a 1Kg block of steel.
But with people that are allergic to nickel this might be an interesting thing to know

Here is something from their website that gives some info on the composition of their abrasive. I find lapping in the sink under lightly running water eliminates any stiction issues. I have the XX, C, the 600, 1200 and 8000. They are all good for various purposes and I'm glad to have them. I don't use the 600 and up often but for some razors they come in extremely handy.

I've lapped a heck of a lot on the D8C but now I tend to start with the XX. It will leave scratches and when the pencil grid is about gone I switch over to the C. I have on occasion gone on to the 600 but since Dia Sharp recommends never using a finer plate than the C, and that under running water, I don't often use the 600 for lapping. The C leaves the stones with a very nice honing surface IME.

I find the DMT 1200 (EF) loads very quickly when lapping and I get better results with a DMT 325. The problem with the way it loads is that the swarf piles up under one edge or at the end of the stone and lifts the stone you're lapping a bit. This may not be visible at first but it will feel different. You'll then have to relap the hone. I'm picky too and I get no scratches on coticules or eschers when using the DMT 325.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lesslemming

But the thing that really astonished me was the smooth surface the DMT left on my stones.
So far I tried cleaning/lapping the Naniwa Super 8k and 10k and a Shapton Pro 2k.
All of them got a mirror polished surface!
I was expecting a little bit of dullness or even a scratch or two.
But the surface is just dense and clean.
The surface is so smooth I was wondering if this ain´t a bit too much.
The stones of course work at their best afterwards!

I was wondering how this is possible.
Even 1.500 grit Sandpaper or a 1.000 Waterstone don´t leave stones this bright.
I wonder if the 325 would leave a nice finish too at a reasonable sucction rate.
I compared the DMT to my Sandpaper and obviuosly this was a mistake,
because 325 sandpaper leaves my stones very scratched...

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The DMT 325 = 45 micron particle but how much of that particle is embedded in the nickel matrix ? The 325 paper is likely even a different grit system (larger) & the whole particle gets rubbed around. The Atoma 1200 plates are a different animal again. The raised regular spaced pimples on the plate reduce stiction drastically but the DMT 325 leaves a much finer finish.
An Atoma 400 plate will destroy any razor edge you put it to yet the particle size is a bit finer than the 325 DMT. As always in this sport. So many variables :)

why not just get some finer abrasive powder for your current system.

though i am surprised whatever grit you are now using is not breaking down as you go.

1 thing though. it is ok to be picky but it serves best when it really matters. are you sure this is not too much ado over nothing?

Hi Kevint,

being picky is never (or always) too much ado about nothing.
But it´s what makes the sport so entertaining ;)

I am doing this for several years, constantly improving and changing my setup.
I came to find that I prefer a certain feedback on my stones
and that I can change the feedback it gives by polishing the stones more, or less.

I wondered the same thing, why not buy maybe 600 grit loose abrasive?
Because it would have cost half of the dmt 600
and I needed a coarse stone, so with the DMT, I got both.

The abrasive is SiC, single crystal SiC doesn´t break down easily at all.
The lapping plate made of steel nor the matrix of sharpening stones is hard enough to touch the abrasives.
SiC is strong and tough, no chance that´s gonna break down.


I always recommend to keep things simple. But I hardly ever keep things simple for myself

That is very interesting. Isn't your feedback in constant flux. degrading as each stroke removes, breaks down the surface which is slowly releasing particles into the swarf.

the 600dmt is a very good one. Actually the only diamond stone I use for sharpening.

When I first arrived it sounded like very many were insisting on fine scratch patterns lap and finish lap on 1k or some such as a necessity to a good edge. suggesting that 120 is good enough, 400 more than enough if you keep all in good condition was being the odd man out.

Of course the feel when honing is slightly changing during the session.
It of course differs from blade to blade, too.
I wouldn´t take my idea of lapping too serious. It´s just *me*.
It may very well be, like you said, much ado about nothing.

As long as the stone is flat and ungouged you´re good.
It´s just my personal goal to keep the stones clean and appealing all the time,
as they did cost a lot of money, so scratched stone surfaces are a no no for me

I like my stuff clean and appealing. This way I really enjoy things.
Having fun and enjoying yourself while honing is the key to an environment
that makes learning very easy