Lapping / Slurry stone question not covered in the Wiki

I've read about people using a credit-card sized DMT325 as a slurry stone, and the first thought that leaps to mind is that the same DMT is used to lap hones, so isn't it reasonable to assume that using it as a slurry stone creates an uneven honing surface?

I ask because I'm expecting a Charnley Forrest this week, and I know I'll have to lap it. I expect to use a series of wet/dry sandpaper. I've got a few sheets of 600 and 1200, but it might take a very long time with those grits and I'm considering purchasing a DMT to get things started. Of course, the DMT product line is downright confusing to me, so I'm sure I'll come back and ask exactly one is proper to use. I've also read about people using the Charnley with slurry, which sounds interesting to try, but without a matching slurry stone, I'll have to find another solution. But even then, I have no idea what kind of slurry stone can be used with a CF. The only one I've got is for my Coti, but using it seems counter-intuitive. Why would I spread a lower-grit slurry on my high-grit CF. Or, more accurately, why would I spread garnet on a stone which has no garnet? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of using a CF? (I know, I know... natural stones can't be measured in grit size, but the logic still applies.)

What's the solution?

thanks,
m

The DMT is the slurry stone too, 5 light figure 8's on any hone that can produce slurry and it will be ready to go...

This laps it, refreshes it, and slurries it, all in one ultra flat plate...
The only thing you have to be careful of, is some CF's were/are used as oilstones, if you are planing on that, you can't go from a waterstone to an oilstone and back and forth again, you will cause contamination...

You will also kill 2 birds with lapping the CF on the NEW DMT it should also tame the high diamonds on the DMT :)

First of all where did you find a CF???
I have been looking high and low!
Thaow a guy a bone...

I like the DMT coarse 325 credit card sized plate for a slurry because it is light, cheap and easy to use. You can do it with the 8" plate but it is awkward to me. Yes you will effect the flatness of the plate with the slurry generating no matter what you use. The best ,IMO, is a piece of the same rock you are working with but that isn't always available and a CC sized DMT is a good substitute since it probably won't leave grit from the plate to contaminate your slurry. Another natural but unrelated stone might. Not necessarily a bad thing ....:shrug:

I'd really rather not get a DMT. I prefer the romantic notion of using natural stones, and grabbing that soulless DMT each time I want to spend some quiet time with ancient rocks and 19th century razors just doesn't seem like how I want to spend my time.

I can process the idea of lapping it on paper. I could stand at the kitchen counter with a cup of coffee, listening to Junior Wells records while Nicole teases me about spending two hours flattening a rock instead of attending to my seemingly endless honey-do list. I'll use the paper and then toss it in the trash, where all modern disposable products seem to end up, never to be seen again. I'd just rather find a natural slurry stone or use the hone with water.

I'd love to say that I'll use the CF after my Coti every time, and that I have a very doctrinaire approach to honing. But I'm not a professional honer. I'm a hobbyist, and the fun seems to be in playing around with the various stone combinations. Perhaps I'll find that I enjoy a particular stone with a particular razor. I'd enjoy figuring that out.

if you are trying to lap CF with 600 paper Sorry to say . you will need a lot of paper.
The only good solution is to use not 325 will get killed but use 225 dmt and DGLP.
This 2 lapping stones will help you.
to use small 325 as a slurry stone will work
Lasty if you want to get Max out of your CF you shouldn't use it with slurry.
CF is oil stone and mean to use for finishing.
hope this helps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kevin007

First of all where did you find a CF???
I have been looking high and low!
Thaow a guy a bone...

---

I got it from the guy at the place who had the things. He was very friendly and had picked it up the day before. Had I waited a couple of days, he said, "one of those crazy Americans would have bought it. They buy every one I find." He knew, of course, that I'm one of those crazy Americans. I can't hide my Colorado accent, but I live in London now, so I try and relax, drink at noon, sneer at "those bloody Europeans," and have a dry wit. I think the old guy responded well to that. He only charged me 40 quid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

if you are trying to lap CF with 600 paper Sorry to say . you will need a lot of paper.
The only good solution is to use not 325 will get killed but use 225 dmt and DGLP.
This 2 lapping stones will help you.
to use small 325 as a slurry stone will work
Lasty if you want to get Max out of your CF you shouldn't use it with slurry.
CF is oil stone and mean to use for finishing.
hope this helps.

---

Your name is Sham, right?

Sham, I suspect you are correct, and that using paper might not be the most efficient use of my time. But until I do it, I won't appreciate the awesome stupidity of trying.

What's a DGLP?

While I know that a carborundum barbers hone is technically man-made, I'm pretty sure that my decades-old Aloxite is harder and faster than the CF. Can that be used to lap it or generate a slurry? I suppose that it can, but does anyone do that?

I've read about using oil on the CF, but I think that I will only use water.

What's a DGLP?


It's Shapton's "Diamond Glass Lapping Plate" around 300 bucks...give or take.

Also, A little known fact:

Hones can actually be used without a slurry, especially Finisher's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zib

What's a DGLP?


It's Shapton's "Diamond Glass Lapping Plate" around 300 bucks...give or take.

Also, A little known fact:

Hones can actually be used without a slurry, especially Finisher's.

---

$300 is quite a bit more than I want to spend on anything except a genuine Pastrami sandwich, something I miss desperately since landing in London for a year-long academic beating, so it's safe to say that the Shapton option is off the table. Perhaps if I owned a Pastrami farm, like I always wanted to, then I might have the extra cash laying around.

Also, I had planned to use it only as a finisher, with water, but the entire natural-stone-with-slurry-and-then-with-water process is interesting, and I was wondering how I would do that without a CF slurry stone.

The lapping will certainly be a pain-in-the-arm if I decide to use paper, but they have really good drugs for that.

If the color of your Aloxite is very different from the CF, you'll be able to tell which hone is breaking down to create the slurry. CF colored is CF slurry, Aloxite colored is Aloxite. The reason the DMT is suggested is that it is known that it will not break down, so you are guaranteed to get slurry from the main hone.

I have used a pocked sized medium Spyderco hone as a slurry stone - it is very hard and doesn't break down, so it worked. I already had it, so I figured why not. I like it more than a DMT 325 because my DMT 325 will put scratches into hard hones (like my Thurry or C12k) but the Spyderco won't. I actually use my Spyderco to remove the scratches left behind by my DMT 325 after I initially lap hard hones.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkinLondon

While I know that a carborundum barbers hone is technically man-made, I'm pretty sure that my decades-old Aloxite is harder and faster than the CF. Can that be used to lap it or generate a slurry? I suppose that it can, but does anyone do that?

Quote:

---

General Rule never use 2 different type or grit stones while you are trying to make slurry. if you want to use stone it will be better to find small CF OR cut CF AND use it as slurry stone.(never seen someone will cut CF.

---

I've read about using oil on the CF, but I think that I will only use water.

Quote:

---

what i mean is this. if you want to get maximum out of your CF you will need to use with oil.can you use with water yes you can.

---

---

Rich is right about using it without slurry too.
About paper sandpaper it will take a lot sandpaper to make CF flat specially i think you were trying to use higher grit one.
hope this helps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

If the color of your Aloxite is very different from the CF, you'll be able to tell which hone is breaking down to create the slurry. CF colored is CF slurry, Aloxite colored is Aloxite. The reason the DMT is suggested is that it is known that it will not break down, so you are guaranteed to get slurry from the main hone.

---

That's damn fine wisdom. Thank you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I have used a pocked sized medium Spyderco hone as a slurry stone - it is very hard and doesn't break down, so it worked. I already had it, so I figured why not. I like it more than a DMT 325 because my DMT 325 will put scratches into hard hones (like my Thurry or C12k) but the Spyderco won't. I actually use my Spyderco to remove the scratches left behind by my DMT 325 after I initially lap hard hones.

---

So: I won't be using oil; I won't be generating slurry; and may be forced to purchase an expensive 8" DMT plate just to lap my Charnley. I'm not sure that I'm happy with that last bit. I have no desire to spend £40 on a DMT just to use a £40 Charnley Forest. There needs to be another way.

I think that I'm going to pick up a package of assorted grit wet/dry paper and try that. Perhaps it will take all day. Perhaps my arm will fall off. Perhaps I'll listen to all my Junior Wells records before the hone is flat. But I'll say one thing: using a straight razor sure is fun.

Oil should work better than water, as said above.

The DMT will last a long time and let you lap anything. It is an initial investment, but in the long run it's cheaper than sandpaper, and, IMO, much easier to use.


That said, you've gotta do what makes you happy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Oil should work better than water, as said above.

The DMT will last a long time and let you lap anything. It is an initial investment, but in the long run it's cheaper than sandpaper, and, IMO, much easier to use.


That said, you've gotta do what makes you happy.

---

Oil? Really? That seems messy. What kind of oil?

I see that you're in Rochester. I spent a few months taking a brain beating at the U of R in the early 80's. Is Nick Tahoe's still serving Garbage Plates?

Oil isn't really messy. It only gets on the hone and the blade and whatever you put the hone on. The tops of swiffer boxes work, as do cookie trays. I would guess mineral oil is the easiest, but I don't know if it matters.

I spent 5 years taking a brain beating at the U of R. Garbage Plates are still in abundance, though I prefer them from other places.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkinLondon

Oil? Really? That seems messy. What kind of oil?

---

Very good question.
There is only 1 kind oil is absolutely contraindicate to use with CF.
I DON'T remember name of it but before you use any oil find out the name of it. it should be in srp in old posts.
I am sorry i just cannot remember from my head. I am sure srp members knows name.
Some one will come up and let us know name of it.

I've recently lapped 2 Charnley Forests by placing a $3 diamond hone with plastic backing on a glassplate. I'm sure it's slower than with a DMT but it's much cheaper. Afterwards you will have to lap it on 120 or 240 sanding paper but that shouldn't take long.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Piet

I've recently lapped 2 Charnley Forests by placing a $3 diamond hone with plastic backing on a glassplate. I'm sure it's slower than with a DMT but it's much cheaper. Afterwards you will have to lap it on 120 or 240 sanding paper but that shouldn't take long.

---

It was an 80 grit plate? It must have been very uneven to require that low a grit.

It seems as though hones really are treated like pieces of wood. First you look for visible signs of uneven surfaces, and then find anything you can to start flattening, smoothing and polishing it. I learn something every day.

When is it appropriate to end the lapping process? Must a fine stone like the CF be lapped up to a certain grit? Like 1200? or higher? No one seems to lap it up to 16k, but no one seems to stop at 325. Is there a technical reason for choosing a certain grit, or must it only be flat?

Other than lapping a Coti on 600 paper, I've no experience doing this, but I've recently acquired a few stones (five or six, as it turns out) and really need to lap them all. Some of them will be difficult, like the Aloxite BH that actually feels rough, and the CF, which probably needs it. perhaps I really do need to bite the bullet and pick up an 8" 325 DMT just to get through all these crazy hones.

I've never been able to figure out why a stone lapped to 325 is capable of honing at higher levels.

HAD; I'm beggin' ya.

I lapped my CF on a 325 DMT and it worked great. CF's are really hard stones (way harder than a coticule) and I have to agree with Sham that you'll chew through a lot of paper getting it lapped!

But that 325 leaves a nice flat smooth surface and I didnt need to do anything else after that. Just the 325 and it was ready to go.

I dont use mine with slurry either. I was lucky and mine hasnt been used with oil, so I use a tip that JimmyHAD gave me: Put a couple of drops of dish soap on the hone before you start honing and that gives you the same result as oil, with the added advantage that you can wash it off!

After I come off the 12k Naniwa, I put some soap on the CF and then do 40 or 50 laps on the stone. Then I just go right to my daily strop and test shave, I dont use any pastes at all.

I gotta say, between them my CF and Maruichi have pretty much rendered my pasted strops redundant!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkinLondon

It was an 80 grit plate? It must have been very uneven to require that low a grit.

---

The glass plate I used is just standard glass I took out of a container :)

I place the $3 diamond hone on the glass to keep it flat. I noticed when using it in hand it bends a little.

Mark in London,

I've been using the Atoma #400 diamond plates for about 4 years now and found them to be a good value at about $125 for a 8 1/4 x 3 inch size. The electroplated nickle process to fix the diamonds is excellent and I have no indication of ever having lost a diamond and I have never had a diamond chip show up in the slurry of any of my sharpening sessions. The diamonds do however, as with any diamond plate, gradually soften their action so that over time the 400 plate begins to feel like a 600 or 800 action. This is not all that bad though because when a plate softens like that I reserve it for my more expensive and rare stones where I desire to minimize the lapping action.

One thing about doing a serious resurface job on a stone is that the amount of stone material you eventually remove has to itself be removed from the lapping surface matrix in order to progress with speed. This stone swarf clogs the lapper and unless you can rinse it out the speed is greatly slowed down. A diamond plate, Shapton or Atoma is great because it can be imersed and rinsed off in a bucket of water with a bursh and once done it regains 100% of its lapping strength. The backing I have found of sand paper including wet/dry emory or garnet or whatever does eventully loose its ability to hold the grit, so not only does the grit loose its sharp cutting edges but the grit also falls off the paper.

About using your Charnley as a water stone after it was used as an oil stone, if you are going to lap the CF you may get below the oil stained areas faster than you think, and once you do you might just try using it as a water stone. I have done this with Arkansas's that had been oil stones and they will perform excellent with water and a light slurry created with a DN (diamond nagura). Alx

If you want to use your CF stone with slurry, but you do not want to use diamond plates, why not saw a little piece from your CF and use it as a slurry stone. Laugh if i'm wrong: i do not know anything about CF stones, rather this was just me thinking aloud :shrug:

$125 for a lapping plate! That's too rich for my blood. I havent picked up the DMT because it's £55!

But.... it seems like I've got a lot of lapping to do. I've got an Aloxite barber hone that needs help, a Charnley on the way, and next month a Dragon's Tongue will be delivered. I've also got an ancient Tam O'Shanter that's nowhere near flat.

I did see a heavy (14lbs) Norton cast iron lapping plate that has deep figure-eight grooves cut into it. It's only about £20. No one uses that, right?

I'm going to end up dropping the 50 quid on an 8x3 DMT plate, aren't I?

Yep! :D

Seriously, that 325 DMT is a great investment and not just for lapping. You can also use it for razors that have chips or need any other major bevel work doing.

When you get that eBay razor with a chip in the edge you'll be glad of that DMT..! You'll have the chip out in short order and all your hones will be lapped flatter than a flat thing.

I wouldnt recommend spending the money if you didnt need it, but I really do think that a 325 DMT is one of those stones thats worth its weight in gold.

If you've got that much lapping, you may be better off with a DMTXXC and then a DMTC or wet/dry sandpaper to remove scratches.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

If you've got that much lapping, you may be better off with a DMTXXC and then a DMTC or wet/dry sandpaper to remove scratches.

---

I DO have a lot of lapping to do!! It's about to be a crazy month of dissertation writing and hone lapping.

I cant make heads or tails out of the DMT product line. What's the DMTXXC? And why is it different?

If you post a link to the DMT website then I'll know what to look for in London.

The DMTXXC is the Extra Extra coarse. I believe it is 120 grit. The difference is the grit. In general, we are referring to the continuous, single grit DMT's. The letters at the end are the grit. A number, if any (it would be 6, 8, or 10) is the length of the plate (the widths vary, but all of a given length are the same width, so only the length need be given). Dunno DMT's website offhand.

There is in fact a non-synthetic Slurry-Stone (aka. Nagura) solution,
besides (obviously) using a similar or identical stone to create mud.

I recently purchased a Tsushima Black Nagura.
It is a black chunk that is used to create mud.
Rumors say it is mined under the sea... IDK

Japanische Schleifsteine für Küchen- und Rasiermesser ::

Anyhow, this stone creates mud perfectly AND I have not ever noticed
any sideffects. And you guys know I am picky with scratches etc.

I use this nagura on my Naniwa Super 10k and get a perfect mirror
instantly (I mean 40x-100x mag. perfection).
I use it on my nakayama or ohira and get the hazy finish they usually provide.

I don´t know why, but it works.
It´s expensive, though.

Besides this I use a DMT card in fine.
Handy, creates slurry on anything... what more could you ask for?


The problem with every slurry creating action with a stone
considerably smaller than the CF: you will get uneven wear.
This means you will have to lap it more often,
but it doesn´t mean you have to lap it much, anyway.
Instead of every 100 razors, maybe every 50 now... :whipped:

OK... I've got it now. It's the 120-grit DiaSharp Extra-Extra Course 8". If I've got "that much honing to do" then I'll hate 325-grit regular Course, right?

Is it still foolish to ask my I would choose such a course plate? Wouldn't it leave a rough surface on my hone?

A coarser lapping plate will make the work faster, so for tons of lapping, the XXC will be helpful.

Yes, the XXC will probably leave scratches in hard hones, which is why I suggested you also get the DMTC to finish the job or use sandpaper to do it. As I said above, I have found that even the DMTC leaves scratches in my hard hone, so I finish with the Spyderco medium. A barber hone also does this job nicely, and some higher grit sandpaper (maybe 600 or so) would also work. I prefer a barber hone or the Spyderco because I already have them, and they won't wear out. They are also already flat, whereas the sandpaper would have to be used on a flat surface.

DMTC = DMT325 - the "coarse" is 325 grit. I use the two terms interchangeably.

Frankly, the DMT XXC is £119. That's pricey. And it seems, I'll have a deep scratch pattern on a a stone that should have no scratch pattern. I'm assuming that once I flatten the hones with the XXC, I'll need to lap it again with a finer stone, a 325 perhaps, and then again with a 600 and so on and so on.

DMT makes a 325/600 Continuous plate
Buy DMT DMT Dia-Sharp Double-Sided Continuous Diamond Whetstone from Axminster, fast delivery for the UK that's "only" £69. Couldn't I use this?

I know that this thread is long, and for that I'm truly sorry. But I'm innocently ignorant about lapping.

You really shouldn't use any DMT's above 325 for lapping. The diamonds can be ripped out of the nickle substrate that bonds them to the steel plate, which renders the DMT useless. If you want to go above 325, you should use something other than a DMT.

There is more money to invest, but it's necessary if you want the hones lapped so you can used them and don't want to spend hours and hours doing it. It's also a one time investment that should last decades (if used properly). Or if you don't foresee the need to do lots of lapping in the future, you can sell the plates and get back most of our money.