budget hone setup for vintage razors.

hey guys.

my interest in shaving with a straight is largely a cost saving one. being the case i've opted to surf antique shops for old razors rather than purchasing new. the situation ends up being that I have an antique razor in good condition with an edge similar to a sharp kitchen knife. it will take down thin hairs but pulls on my beard. cuts paper.

i have been reading about hones for the last few weeks and it would seem that the best budget setups would include the norton 4k/8k stone. from there the next step would be a finishing stone. chinese 12k being probably the best option where value for money is concerned. spyderco UF being an upgrade there for a considerable amount more money and the shapton 16k on the long list of premium options for finishing.

right out of the gate i'm thinking of a single stone setup with the norton 4/8 then stropping with oil and shaving. theory being my edge wouldn't be at it's full potential but, as i'm new to using a straight, that would be advantageous. once funds allowed i would go for a finishing stone.

questions are: am i going about this correctly? should i opt for a finishing stone first rather than touching up on the 8k side of the norton? if so would the finishing stone be able to sharpen a less keen edge as is what i'm dealing with? i suppose the other option would be a pasted strop rather than a finishing stone. .5 micron paste works out to around 30k grit so that would be slow going.

Hey Ron,

First of all stop cutting paper with your razor as a test of it's sharpness. As a rule it shouldn't be used to cut anything other than hair.

Next, the truth is you don't really need anything higher than 8k to get a comfortable shave. Anything higher is just icing on the cake. Above and beyond the 8k level your cheapest options would include:
-Barber hone
-Chinese 12k
-Pastes

You'll need a lapping stone to flatten your hones as well. You may also consider sending out your razor to be professionally honed - then all you need to worry about is touching up the edge every now and then.

Cheers,

Ryan

I agree with Ryan. If you want to pursue honing a lot of old razors for the fun of it the Norton 220/1k and 4/8 combos will be fine. Add a DMT D8C continuous diamond plate for lapping and that is all that you really need. Wet and dry 325 or so sandpaper on a flat surface can take the place of the diamond plate. If you stick with it the plate will be worth the price.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

Hey Ron,

First of all stop cutting paper with your razor as a test of it's sharpness. As a rule it shouldn't be used to cut anything other than hair.

Next, the truth is you don't really need anything higher than 8k to get a comfortable shave. Anything higher is just icing on the cake. Above and beyond the 8k level your cheapest options would include:
-Barber hone
-Chinese 12k
-Pastes

You'll need a lapping stone to flatten your hones as well. You may also consider sending out your razor to be professionally honed - then all you need to worry about is touching up the edge every now and then.

Cheers,

Ryan

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thanks for the advice on the paper test :)

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I agree with Ryan. If you want to pursue honing a lot of old razors for the fun of it the Norton 220/1k and 4/8 combos will be fine. Add a DMT D8C continuous diamond plate for lapping and that is all that you really need. Wet and dry 325 or so sandpaper on a flat surface can take the place of the diamond plate. If you stick with it the plate will be worth the price.

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well it wouldn't just be for fun. i'd like to get into restoring some of my antique store finds. razors seem to be fairly simple devices so restoring them shouldn't be all that complicated. i've come to this conclusion after perusing the wiki. i guess you could consider my interest as a developing hobby restorer.

how do i know which stone to take the edge down to? my impression was that under 4k would be to bring a completely dead or damaged edge into a bevel and then sharpening takes place. at the moment i stay away from damaged edges and opt for things with damaged scales or minor cleaning duties required. if i could bring back some damaged edges that would greatly increase the amount of razors i could purchase.

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Originally Posted by RonPopeil

how do i know which stone to take the edge down to? my impression was that under 4k would be to bring a completely dead or damaged edge into a bevel and then sharpening takes place. at the moment i stay away from damaged edges and opt for things with damaged scales or minor cleaning duties required. if i could bring back some damaged edges that would greatly increase the amount of razors i could purchase.

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It depends on the condition of the edge. IME vintage ebay and/or antique shop razors frequently have micro chipping or worse. Sometimes it is visible to the naked eye and sometimes it is not. Often an eye loupe or microscope is the best way to assess the condition of the edge and decide what to proceed with. A bevel can be set with a 4k but it is a lot faster with a 1k. If you are buying these vintage pieces you will learn through experience how to judge which hone to begin with and when to move on to the next grit. I said fun because I find it to be an enjoyable pursuit. Honing that is. I do it when I want to and I don't do it unless I want to so it is still fun for me. If I was under the gun honing to a deadline for a customer I might not find it so. Dunno. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

It depends on the condition of the edge. IME vintage ebay and/or antique shop razors frequently have micro chipping or worse. Sometimes it is visible to the naked eye and sometimes it is not. Often an eye loupe or microscope is the best way to assess the condition of the edge and decide what to proceed with. A bevel can be set with a 4k but it is a lot faster with a 1k. If you are buying these vintage pieces you will learn through experience how to judge which hone to begin with and when to move on to the next grit. I said fun because I find it to be an enjoyable pursuit. Honing that is. I do it when I want to and I don't do it unless I want to so it is still fun for me. If I was under the gun honing to a deadline for a customer I might not find it so. Dunno. :)

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i see. i suppose i'll grab a couple norton combo stones and an off name "antique" razor and get to it rather than take my W&B straight to the stones.

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Wa...it-P94C18.aspx

good idea?

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Originally Posted by RonPopeil

would the DMT be useful down the road if i upgraded stones to something like the shapton stones or naniwa SS?

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Absolutely. It is great for lapping any waterstones. (except for the 220) Best accomplished in the sink with a trickle of water running down on the work. Here is a tutorial Josh Earl did on lapping awhile back. Also a good kitchen knife sharpener.

+1 with Jimmy. Though you could get away with using the Norton flattening stone (if using Norton products exclusively), the DMT 8C is one of the most versatile hones you can buy, and a great investment. My only regret is that I didn't buy one sooner.

I see there is also a DMT 6" 325. Wouldn't that work nearly as good as the 8"?

The six is as good as the eight(its the same grit) but will take more work, also I myself believe the eight is a tad better for flattening because it is closer to the size of the water stone and will not follow the "dish" that you are trying to flatten.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Absolutely. It is great for lapping any waterstones. (except for the 220) Best accomplished in the sink with a trickle of water running down on the work. Here is a tutorial Josh Earl did on lapping awhile back. Also a good kitchen knife sharpener.

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$150 isn't really a cheap investment. i mean, razor sharpening is the only thing i'm going to be using this for. that's a little bit of change for it's use.

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Originally Posted by RonPopeil

$150 isn't really a cheap investment. i mean, razor sharpening is the only thing i'm going to be using this for. that's a little bit of change for it's use.

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Honing is not for everyone. You can make do fine with a swaty forever for about 20 bucks. Honing is an art for those that want to take a razor from the junk box to shave ready.

I'm not learning honing because I have to, but because I want to... I may eventually want to do more intensive restores with buffers and scaling. That all remains to be seen.... I love the great looking restores that I've seen here.:beer2:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Get the two combo stones and the DMT D8C 325 to lap them. The norton lapping stone is nowhere near as good and will need to be flattened itself soon if not right away.

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I agree, one of the best investments I've made is the DMT 220/325 combination. The 325 is perfect for waterstones, and the 220 laughs in the faces of hard ceramic barber hones. (Which I then finish with a few quick passes on the 325 side.) Life is good with DMT.

Me =)

A suggestion:

Rather than stones, use sandpaper (available down to 2000 grit), microabrasive sheets, and pastes.

You can buy those materials for less than a decent stone -- SiCarbide "wet-or-dry" sandpaper costs about $1/sheet, retail. In the long run, stones may be cheaper. But you may be dead before then.

There's a good piece on the Wiki about this:

Using micro abrasive film - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Charles

I agree with Jeffegg2. Buy a barber's hone. Used properly, with proper stropping, your razor will keep a keen edge for a long time. When you think you need to, send it off to a honemeister for a new edge. Honing yourself only leads to time, trouble, and expense! (HAD)! Don't succumb to HAD, and better if you avoid straight razor forums. HAD leads to RAD, and that can be nearly fatal.

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Originally Posted by RonPopeil

$150 isn't really a cheap investment. i mean, razor sharpening is the only thing i'm going to be using this for. that's a little bit of change for it's use.

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We never promised you a rose garden. :p You asked what a good 'cheap' honing setup would be. What I proposed is my opinion on a basic setup for tackling any razor you get your hands on. There are cheaper alternatives but knowing what I know now I stand by my recommendation. Having the razors pro honed and maintaining with a barber hone and your strop is also an alternative as others have mentioned. If you are going to be buying ebay and antique store razors, learning to hone I think you'd be better off going for the $150.00. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

We never promised you a rose garden. :p You asked what a good 'cheap' honing setup would be. What I proposed is my opinion on a basic setup for tackling any razor you get your hands on. There are cheaper alternatives but knowing what I know now I stand by my recommendation. Having the razors pro honed and maintaining with a barber hone and your strop is also an alternative as others have mentioned. If you are going to be buying ebay and antique store razors, learning to hone I think you'd be better off going for the $150.00. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

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i see. thanks for the info through out this thread. i was expecting a little less investment to get this hobby kick started. supposed to be a cheap alternative to my other interests (computers, cars, stereos, etc). le sigh. i'll probably just bite the bullet.

in regards to the Norton 220/1000 combo stone, it seems that many feel 220 is far too low grit for use on razors. would swapping that out for a DMT 1200 or Naniwa 1k be wise? it seems to work out to around the same price and many are talking about how either of those stones are invaluable to them. seems like i'd end up upgrading anyway. ya know?

right now i'm thinking:

DMT 8 325g = $43.99 @ SRD
Naniwa 1k = $29.99 @ sharpeningsupplies.com
norton 4/8 = $78 @ amazon.com

makes $152 and seems to cover all bases aside from finishing.