Of course, even the Nortons do vary. I have 2 Norton 4Ks that are quite distinct. At some point I'm going to photograph them under the microscope to show the difference between the American and Mexican stones.Quote:
Originally Posted by English
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Of course, even the Nortons do vary. I have 2 Norton 4Ks that are quite distinct. At some point I'm going to photograph them under the microscope to show the difference between the American and Mexican stones.Quote:
Originally Posted by English
That would be interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
But the difference would not depend on whether it was made in the use or mexico. The 4K sides are mad in italy and then glued to the US or mexico made 8000 or 1000 grit side.
I talked with howard and according to him, the mexican made nortons were of better quality.
I suppose the main difference could be between batches among the 4K side. After all, man made also means 'room for human error'
Both of my 4K hones are single grit hones not glued to anything. One says made in US and the other says made in Mexico. The Mexican hone is noticeably more coarse and under the scope the reason is clear. The Mexican stone is full of "pock marks." While the American stone has some of them, they are more shallow and much less numerous.
These aren't great photos but they'll give you the idea.
The first is the US Norton 4K and the second is the Mexican Norton 4K.
:HJ
I guess I did get a little off topic. I blame English for it!
I got off track in an unrelated thread so I thought that I would start it again here.
There have been previous discussions about differences between older and newer Norton 4K hones. The older ones were made in the US and the newer ones made in Mexico. (NAFTA strikes again!) The basic complaints about the Mexican hones were that they were more coarse and had occasional bits of grit that caused microchipping. Generally the response to such complaints was that the hone simply needed to be lapped.
Well, after using my Mexican hone for over a year and after lapping it many times, I still occasionally encounter pieces of grit that I can feel and hear when I'm honing and it is still noticeably coarser than my older US made 4K. Whenever I encounter one of these bits, I have to stop and lap the plate again until the little miscreant pebble is knocked out.
Even without the occasional piece of grit, the hone feels more coarse than my other 4K. After looking at both under the microscope, I know why. I'm not trying to scare anyone, I might have just gotten mine from a bad batch but I think it probably does explain why some people have had problems with this hone. The first photo is the older US made 4k and the second is the newer Mexican made 4K.
WOW !!!! that really is different, as they say a picture is worth a 1000 words....
I would highly suggest that you send these pics to Norton if you can find a web address for CS..... See what they have to say ????
[quote=gssixgun;269259]WOW !!!! that really is different, as they say a picture is worth a 1000 words....
I would highly suggest that you send these pics to Norton if you can find a web address for CS..... See what they have to say ????[/quote
I concur w/ glen whole heartedly, I have been having similar issues and now I know why, thanks Utopian.
Yeah, there was a thread about this at least 6 months ago and I always meant to take these pictures but I wasn't reminded about them until today. I described this difference in the past (I think the dreaded banned Forzato had a thread about it) but it's a lot harder to argue with pictures.
That is a very noticeable difference - thanks for posting those pics Utopian.
That is a good idea to send the pictures to Norton. It really is a great all -purpose stone - I couldn't live without mine - and it would be a shame to allow them to descend into mediocrity through inaction on our behalf.
Funny thing, is it not? Vintage Thuringians are more desirable than modern ones. Same is true with Belgians to a lesser degree. Quality issues mean the older Wapis are slightly more prized than the newer batches. Could this be the beginning of the "Vintage Norton"?
James.
If anyone wants to know what it sounds like to hit a piece of grit in the hone, just watch Lynn's honing video. I'm absolutely positively certainly not saying he had a piece of grit in his hone, but the sound is the same as in his video. If you go to the 3:00 point in the video and listen closely, every stroke on the 4K side that is away from him has a little "snick" sound midway through the stroke.
It looks to me like the newer hone has more "pores" in it, for lack of a better term. Almost like little air pockets or something. That would make it feel more coarse, even though the size of the cutting grits might be the same in both.
Has anyone concluded that the grits themselves are also more coarse, or is it speculation based on the way the hone feels in use?
I got a bad U.S. made Norton my first time out. It had grits embedded in it just like you're describing. The three or four I've played with since have all been fine. :)
Josh
Josh,
Sorry, you are absolutely correct. I agree that the pores, in and of themselves, would not make the stone more coarse. As long as the material within the hone is equally fine, the pores should not dramatically affect the performance of the hone. I only looked under the scope after using the hone when I first got it because I immediately noticed that it did not feel like my other 4K.
I guess my concern is that Norton gave assurances when the production went to Mexico that the hones would not change. In my opinion, based upon my vast (note dripping sarcasm) experience with two 4K hones, the pores and the honing feedback and the embedded bits all indicate that the newer hones are different in their basic material composition as well. I would not draw such a conclusion except for the previous posts describing similar problems with new hones.
Did I mention I own stock in Shapton?:roflmao
Oops, I misread Josh's post. He said the pores would make the hone feel more coarse. I did not catch that on first reading and I'm not sure that I agree. I'm not sure I don't agree.
If the material that exists where the pores aren't are identical in both hones, would the presence of the pores change the feel of the stroke significantly? I tried to think this through and I kind of see it both ways.
Ah that might be a difference. The combination stones have a 4K side made in italy. The manufacturing location is specified on that blue box.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Have they been lapped with the same lapping plate?
Yes, many times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
I have 2 4K nortons. 1K/4K and 4K/8K.
Both behave the same way, though I have to admit the 4K/8k hone needed a fair bit of lapping to get rid of some embedded grit. That was primarily on the 8K side though.
I've also found that having a rough honing surface changes the behavior of the hone. This can easily be tested if you have 2 diferent grit lapping plates, like the norton flattening stone and the DMTD8C.
While the NFS was better than the sandpaper solution (for me, at least) the DMT leaves a much smoother honing surface.
After some experimenting, I have concluded that a rough honing surface cuts faster than a smooth honing surface. I think this is because the edge contact is on a smaller surface, so the pressure gets divided across a lot less metal, which is then more easily torn away by the grit.
Of course I didn't do a double blind test with dozens of razors, so ymmv.
Ok then the difference would indeed be the stone itself and nothing else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I'll PM Howard and ask if he has the time to chime in.
To add more complexity to this, I recently got two new Nortons, one a 4K and a 1K/220 combo and both are marked made in Italy.
Not arguing with your pics but Howard mentioned that Norton was experiencing better quality since they moved that operation to Mexico. Perhaps yours was produced either right before or right after siesta. If so, they should timestap the darned things :)
I think they would, but I'm not sure either. It seems logical that those pores are a lot larger than 4K grit particles, so you would feel all the indentations as roughness. I don't think I could tell the difference between a 4K hone and a 5K hone by touch if both had flawless surfaces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
There's been a lot of discussion about barber hones and how difficult it is to tell the grit size by the way the hone feels, and I tend to think that would extend to this instance.
It does seem, based on this limited sample, that there is a difference between the pre- and post-move hones. I'd be curious to know what causes the voids or indentations in the first place. :hmmm
Josh
Haven't the 8K hones always been made in Italy? Gotta love globalization. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
Josh
No, the 8K half of my 4K/8K is marked as made in the US, as is the 1K side of my 1K/4K.
But in my case, the 1K/4K was a winner from the beginning, whereas the 4K/8K needed a couple of good (s)lappings :) to get a nice smooth feeling. Both the 4K and the 8K side had some embedded grit in the beginning, but I don't know what caused it.
It's also possible that this was due to the bad sandpaper when I first lapped it.
As soon as I lapped thoroughly with my norton flattening stone (my first non-sandpaper lapping method) the issue was gone if I remember correctly.
So made in Italy vs made in the US has no significance in my arguably limited statisical set of 2 samples of 2 years old :)
Just to clarify, my hones have been lapped with DMT plates for the past year, so I don't think lapping had any negative effect on mine.
My latest Norton that came yesterday & had a piece of paper that read "4k made in Italy; 8k made in US". THe plastic box says "made in Mexico", though... :thinking:
The 4k side is a lot smoother feeling than my previous one (Mexican), but the 8k side did have some grit that needed lapping out (the only thing that ever touched it was my DMTs). Seems fine now, though.
Moved this from 'Advanced Honing Topics' to Hones, as I feel it is a more appropriate forum for the topic. In case you have it bookmarked or whatever. :beer2: