Iwasaki and Jnats (part one)

Iwasaki and Jnats (part one)


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xAGrW8tzMN...00/Iwasaki.jpg
From left:Mizuochi san, Iwasaki san and me

After visiting Shigefusa I drove to Iwasaki's Workshop in the afternoon. The official name of this workshop is "Sanjyo Seisakujo". In this workshop blacksmith Mizuochi is making the Iwaski brand Kamisori now. Mizuochi san worked here when he was young but he had to succeed his fathers shop and stopped making razors. When he got 60 years old he came back because Iwasaki san got ill and could not fulfill orders. Mizouchi san is working here only at afternoon because he has other things to do before noon.

Here I want to report what Iwasaki san and Mizouchi san told me about honing razor with natural stones.

My first question was about difference between synthetic and natural stones. Why natural stones makes hazy finish to jigane and why the mirror finish to the hagane is not so bright compared to synthetic stones.

Iwasaki san answered it is the difference of the abrasives and the binders. The synthetic stone have uniform size abrasives and these abrasives do not change size during honing. The abrasives do not move so often from the matrix too. Then he draw lines with his finger in the air and said that the resulting scratches on the blade are uniform, deep and long.

The natural stone abrasives are softer and break during honing. Also the clay which is the binder for naturals will scratch jigane. The scratches to the hagane are interrupted and short because part of the abrasives move from the matrix more easily. The scratches are also more shallow. Iwasaki san said you can see the difference at the blade surface when you magnify it with microscope. Magnification of 400x or 500x would be enough.
The short scratches reflect light different (it will scatter more than just straight long lines) so the steel look better and more hazy at the same grit.
I made a drawing what Iwasaki san told me and draw with his finger in air:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4HwlQ3FonM...%2526Jnats.jpg

Iwasaki san continued that if the scratches comes to the edge the synthetic stone will make more serrated edge than the natural stone edge at same grit.

I thanked Iwasaki san about the precisely explanation and asked if I can make pictures of the naturals he has.
The answer was we do not have finishing stones in this workshop. There is too much dust here.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wK29h8sVOu...kiWorkshop.jpg
Iwasaki workshop picture

Yes there was dust there. Mizuochi san said he has the finishing stone at home where he make the final finish to the Iwasaki razors. He assured me that I can make pictures next time at his home.
He added how he makes final finish to the razors and what is important.
You must have clean air without dust. Some years ago a new home was build at his neighborhood. It was a sunny day in March and he had his windows open. The carpenters who build the new house where cutting hard boards outside. On that day he could no make the finish on the razors. The dust contamination from the new house made it impossible.
He also said it is not only for finish the razor.
If he comes home after work in the workshop (especially when he has done the coarse sharpening with coarse stones) his face is contaminated with hard and coarse particles. He must wash his face very carefully with soap if he want to shave. Otherwise he does get very small chips at the razor edge and cannot get a clean shave.

I asked Iwasaki san and Mizuochi san about how to prepare the finishing stones and what is most important. I asked if they flatten it with Atoma because I read it on the internet in English but never read about it in Japanese language (that Iwasaki uses Atoma).
The answer was they do not use any diamond stones. They said they use the 3 stone method to flatten and smooth the stone surface. They have more than 3 similar finishing stones so that is their method.
(3 stone method is to flatten with 3 stones like at the picture below. If you use only 2 stones you may have 1 stone convex and 1 stone concave but with 3 stones you get 3 flat or 3 slightly convex stones)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4-wJBodFTW...tonemethod.jpg
3 Stone Method

I said thank you very much but not everybody has 3 similar finishing stones.
Is there any suggestion how customers of razor can do with minimal equipment?
(to be continued to next blog)

I was very lucky that Iwasaki san was so healthy and could talk with him in person.

Very interesting. I'm still awaiting part 2 and following parts.
Thanks for sharing.

Outstanding information. Many thanks DrNaka !:bow

Very interesting.
Thank you very much!

Thank you for this opportunity that you have given us to learn just a little from a master craftsman.
This is great!!!

A great post Sir!
Thank you for sharing this very interesting visit!

Thanks for sharing..! :) That was a very interesting read!

Nice read. Looking forward to part 2.

Wow what an amazing experience to be able to visit both the Shigefusa and Iwasaki workshops. It must be amazing to talk to craftsmen that are the best in their respective fields. Its great to know that so much attention is paid to the final finish put on a razor. I would never have thought of grit on my face damaging a razor or an open window contaminating a hone to the point it cannot be during nearby construction. I am awaiting the second installment. And will have to visit your blog where I assume you have posted a similiar entry about your visit to Shigefusa.

Awesome information!!

Thank you!!

Lynn

I feel obliged to point out the most critical bit of knowledge acquired from this thread...

The expert tells me I need THREE of each kind of finishing hone!:y

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I feel obliged to point out the most critical bit of knowledge acquired from this thread...

The expert tells me I need THREE of each kind of finishing hone!:y

---

Yup, that caught my attention as well:)

Valuable information for those, who use Jnats. I have a fantastic finishing Nakayama, learnt that I need three.

Excellent info from the skilled craftsmen, and great info on jnats. I'm looking forward to the continuation! Thank you for posting.

Very excellent information, I like your drawings of the scratch pattern, it makes sense. thanks alx

Many thanks for your posts, DrNaka.

Hide-san,
Thank you for a wonderful post:bow. Very interesting read. In fact, I recently did honing on a synthetic as well as a JNat finish. I took images from both (~400X) and I can see the same thing Iwasaki-san suggested, i.e., deep, long scratches with the synthetic and short, shallow scratches with the natural.

Synthetic (Shapton Pro)
Attachment 68235

JNat (Asagi)
Attachment 68236

Thank you very much DrNaka san!
Very interesting read. It's great to hear from Master Iwasaki san himself as well as Mizuochi san.
Regarding the 3 stone method, does it work with 1 + another one cut in half or does it has to be 3 different stones with similar sizes?

Best regards,
Pedro.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BladeRunner001

I took images from both (~400X) and I can see the same thing Iwasaki-san suggested, i.e., deep, long scratches with the synthetic and short, shallow scratches with the natural.

---

Those photos are extremely deceptive, as the lighting angles are quite different. For that reason, the scratch patterns cannot be compared.

Thanks for the post very informative. I can now understand now how a J-Nat finish looks "matted" under magnification.


Thanks,
R

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Those photos are extremely deceptive, as the lighting angles are quite different. For that reason, the scratch patterns cannot be compared.

---

Agreed, but not easy to keep everything the same. In fact, it's impossible. But more often than not, this is what I observe almost all the time, even when I change the angle and lighting.

Robert, only one question for you about your finishing???? and what you are seeing... whether the pics show anything at all I go by what you tell me you see, as me and pics have a fleeting relationship at best :)

On the finishes did you finish these equally ??? both on clear water, both with slurry ??? both using a dilution system ???? both stropped , both stropped the same???

Hi Glen,
The JNat was done with the nagura progression + tomonagura and water only at the end (using dilution of course). The Synthetic was Shapton pro, but I did raise slurry on it using the Atoma, using dilution too. No stropping...right off the stones. I was afraid that stropping may change the patterns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Robert, only one question for you about your finishing???? and what you are seeing... whether the pics show anything at all I go by what you tell me you see, as me and pics have a fleeting relationship at best :)

On the finishes did you finish these equally ??? both on clear water, both with slurry ??? both using a dilution system ???? both stropped , both stropped the same???

---

Stropping does change the pattern, which is exactly why I asked,,

I guess, I am just going to have to break down and buy one of those USB thingy bobbers and have a look see around myself, thanks Robert

I have several theories about hones, honing, and patterns, and I guess it is time to step up to the plate, and find out if any of them hold water

Do they shave differently??

Glen,
Don't waste your money...$60 for that piece of crap ain't worth it. Just my 2 cents. It has 2 magnification scales. 20X and 400X. In between...well, it just doesn't work. The images are "meh" at best (as you can see).

I am going to be posting some (hopefully nice) SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope) images of these two edges at very high magnification (I have the Shapton edge ready for this experiment). After that, I will do the JNat and compare. Here, we should be able to see the actual edge as well as the bevel. A true indication of what the OP says will (should) hopefully be revealed using this imaging technique. Stay tuned. But beware: my edge will not even in the same vicinity as what you, Max or Lynn can produce (now, I am nervous).

Of course, this imaging is not something any of us can do as a hobby as the Instruments are $$$, LOL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Stropping does change the pattern, which is exactly why I asked,,

I guess, I am just going to have to break down and buy one of those USB thingy bobbers and have a look see around myself, thanks Robert

I have several theories about hones, honing, and patterns, and I guess it is time to step up to the plate, and find out if any of them hold water

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

Do they shave differently??

---

Lynn,
Actually...they were very close. The Shapton pro (although my first time trying it) gave me a slightly better shave (sharpness and smoothness factor). But, I was biased from the getgo since I knew the edges. So, I have done 3 different honings on 3 different blades (same brand, grind, steel, etc...) and sent them to a friend (aka, nicknbleeding) for a blind test. There was a thread I started not too long ago about this...Let's see, it's HERE if interested. I would love to get your and others feedback. Rene will be posting his shave results with them and after, I will reveal the stones used in the honing.

Hello Robert
Thanks for the thead, palm stropping will remove the burr for photography and thereby reveal the true edge while not affecting the scratch pattern. Alx

But the scratch pattern is what is being discussed.

Some SEM pictures were posted HERE today. Remember: no stropping was done on the edges. Fresh off the stones (Naniwa progression)

Bet that SEM was not a $60 USB thing. Always wanted to play with one of those.

I wrote part 2.

I am very slow at writing....

Iwasaki and Jnats (part 2)
Continued from Iwasaki and Jnats (part one) .

When I asked Iwasaki san if there are any knowledge for honing razors to the customers he went from workshop to his house and came back with a copy.

レザーと日本剃刀の研ぎ方 "How to Hone Western and Japanese Razors" by Kousuke Iwasaki

Iwasasaki san explained me that it is a text book for a advanced class for barbers where his father gave a lecture about 50 years ago (This textbook was written Jan. 1963). He added a advance class for barbers would be a graduate course like master course　at an university.
I got permission to translate or make an extract from him.
But my friend Jim at Eastern Smooth made a translation recently so go there to have the translation of this book "How to Hone Western and Japanese Razors" At Long Last: Honing Razors and Nihonkamisori.
(I translated the title a bit different but it is the same.)
I read it and it looks to me not as a text book. It is more a record of Kosuke Iwasaki's lecture. It is written in speaking Japanese and not writing Japanese.
Jim's translation is wonderful and I do not think that something is lost at the translation. But this is not a scientific paper and I think something was lost from the lecture to the record of the lecture.
So if you read Jim's translation just read the essence or soul of it. And it was written about 50 years ago. Many things has changed since that time.

Here some examples (Translation by Jim in Italic) :

If you have bought the coarse Botan, and either the Tenjou or Mejiro for middle honing, there is no objection to seeking out a Koma Nagura to come between them.

I think there is missing the word tomo nagura so read it "the koma can be a bridge to tomo nagura but not always necessary."

But the soul or essence of it is that Koma is not necessary. He was very aware of cost performance and writes:

The Koma have particles finer than Botan, yet still eat steel quickly, and sword polishers and Cloisonee makers buy them in large quantities, so they are even more expensive than Botan.

Now about what has changed in 50 years.
What has changed from 1963 and now (2011) is that now very good maruka stones are rare and very expensive. And that there are many natural stones with maruka stamps which do not perform well.
It is also a result that the great Iwasaki-shi has recommended maruka:

A hone with a brown stamp reading “Maruka Shouhonyama” on the small end is absolutely top class.

In 1963 Nakayama mine was not closed and maruka stones has not been so expensive. About 30 years ago Nakayama mine was closed and most of the very good stones have been sold already.

I wonder what Iwasaki-shi would write or lecture if he lives now.

There are many very important things what is right now too.


The yellow stones are considered the best, but after trying reddish ones, blue ones and white ones, the results showed that the particles were the same and the honing results were all equivalent.

This is very important. Do not buy natural stones on appearance. Buy them on performance.

Because these problems can’t be seen, all the honing done up to now has been less than perfect. If he could see these issues, then any professional barber would be able to hone out chips or repair a rounded bevel.---
now, tools to look at the blade’s edge like metallurgical microscopes, which were once limited to scientists, have become necessary as well. Without this, your chances of honing a good edge are lowered. How can you hone an edge that you can’t even see?

Very important thing. You must see the results of honing.

To be continued....

Sorry no picture and no links and no Italics.

I am too lazy now to make it here...

just read this and likely thought this needs a "Bump Up" for the ones who dont know that this is around here :-)