Swaty Sides and Grit Differences

Over the years, I've read a lot about the Swaty barber hones. Some old directions say the hone is two-sided, while most SRP members, myself included, say that personal experience proves otherwise. I've been reading a lot of old barber manuals lately, and I came across directions for the Swaty that I found interesting and that may shed some light on the subject.

Barber Instructor and Toilet Manual
Copyrighted 1900 by Frank C. Bridgeford

THE SWATY HONE.

This is comparatively a new product [comparing to the Belgian and German Water Stones]. It was invented by Francis Swaty, of Vienna, and is practically more in use now than any other used, and when in good condition it takes very little honing. I will give you instructions pertaining to the Swaty hone.

1.--The two sides of the alumine hone differ in roughness, the side marked with the firm is the sharper one.

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5.--Should the rough side, by long use get too smooth rub it when dry with rough emery paper or with a flat piece of pumice stone and plenty of water.
6.--Should the finer surface by long use get too smooth rub it gently at first with fine emery paper.

Notice how he mentions in instruction 1. that the two sides differ in roughness, not in formula. Now, I could be reading this wrong, but according to this manual it seems that the difference in the Swaty's cutting power (coarse v. fine) is not created by two different formulas poured back-to-back as easily seen in the famous C-Mon, Dubl Duck, and Tonsorial Gem, but by a single formula and its differing textures (rough emery v. fine emery) as seen in the Spyderco fine and ultrafine stones.

This would explain our inability to distinguish a difference in performance between the two sides, since most of us prefer to lap our barber hones before using, and both sides are likely to receive the same lapping treatment (DMT 325, for example).

I don't own a Swaty anymore, but perhaps someone here could lap one side (rear) with 325 grit and the other side (front) with 1000g and report on the performance? I'd be very interested in the results.

Just a thought...

Thanx,
Christopher

I don't know about on the Swaty, but I remember different people getting different results off a Dragon's Tongue based on how high they took it in the lapping. I found the same; the rougher finish from the factory didn't give as fine an edge as after a lapping up through rubbing against a barber's hone, and the cut speed was faster when rough than smooth.

Black/translucent Arkansas stone work the same way. They hone differently depending on what degree the surface is lapped.

How to say this the right way :)

Please always keep in the back of your mind that although we often read old "Manuals" and "Literature" and refer to them as almost a shaving gospel...
These should also be preferenced with IMHO just as we do now when we write our opinions on here..

These Books and Pamphlets were the Forums of yesteryear, not saying they are right or wrong, but they are after all one man's opinion...

I have also read that the "Fine" front sides of Barber's Hones were often "Buffed" to a slicker surface then the back side at the factory, I however don't know if that is true or not...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Please always keep in the back of your mind that although we often read old "Manuals" and "Literature" and refer to them as almost a shaving gospel...
These should also be preferenced with IMHO just as we do now when we write our opinions on here..

These Books and Pamphlets were the Forums of yesteryear, not saying they are right or wrong, but they are after all one man's opinion...

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Oh, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. However, I'd still like to see the results of an experiment, and I may have to buy an old Swaty to satisfy my curiosity.

On a fun note to help illustrate your point, here is an excerpt from an old barbering booklet (1895) on razors, hones, and strops.

Russian leather and horse-hide are the Barber's old favorite strops. However, there are many new kinds of good leather strops, as follows: Kangaroo, porpoise, moose hide and wild boar hide are very highly recommended, and are sold by all Supply Dealers. To break in leather strops try the following course: If not already done, grind the grain side to smooth it down, soak in urine a couple of days, let dry a day, stretch on a board, fill with shaving soap, rub with bottle in the same manner as canvas, apply lead and rub until ready to use.

Christopher

I really want to try a porpoise leather strop now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Theseus

I really want to try a porpoise leather strop now.

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Call me a 'greeny' if you want and I don't want to start and arguement, however, a porpoise leather strop is on my list of things I don't want to try.
I have too much respect for these wonderful creatures.
OTOH if we weren't supposed to eat animals - why are they made of meat?
Just my $0.02

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Havachat45

Call me a 'greeny' if you want and I don't want to start and arguement, however, a porpoise leather strop is on my list of things I don't want to try.
I have too much respect for these wonderful creatures.
OTOH if we weren't supposed to eat animals - why are they made of meat?
Just my $0.02

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I think it was Denis Leary that said something about how it's only alright to kill and eat the ugly animals.

I've had several Swaty hones in the past and they were all pretty much the same on both sides...I never noticed a difference. I tried the buffering thing on one side and still didn't see much of a difference. I'm actually not a fan of a Swaty edge anyway, it's pretty rough for my thick beard..

I just snagged a pretty ugly looking Swaty off the 'bay, and I think it's restoration and preparation for use are a perfect time for this experiment. I'll visit back after I get it, hopefully with some pictures. I'll do the before and after thing, and once it is lapped to my satisfaction, I'll try rubbing the 'labeled' side on my 800, and only use the DMT325 on the 'clean' face. That should be a great answer to your experiment.

I'll post back later!!

Mike

Sounds great! I look forward to the results.

Christopher

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

How to say this the right way :)

Please always keep in the back of your mind that although we often read old "Manuals" and "Literature" and refer to them as almost a shaving gospel...
These should also be preferenced with IMHO just as we do now when we write our opinions on here..

These Books and Pamphlets were the Forums of yesteryear, not saying they are right or wrong, but they are after all one man's opinion...
Agreed, agreed! What we have found is that sometimes a different texture on the surface of a hone will result in a different edge( Spyderco, Arkansas black& translucent etc where there is no distinction between the abrasive and the binder) but for another hone it will make no difference, (waterstones, barber hones and other hones with separate abrasives & binders)

I have also read that the "Fine" front sides of Barber's Hones were often "Buffed" to a slicker surface then the back side at the factory, I however don't know if that is true or not...
In the case of the American Hone Company some hones were either buffed or rubbed with the hone mixture or oiled.

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This does not mean that a lapped barber hone will cut the same after it has been lapped. What happens is that the arasive grains get "dulled" ( rounded over) from use and swarf builds up. By lapping the swarf is removed and the edges on the abrasive grains are now sharp again and not dulled, i.e. the hone is "refreshed".
The result is that the hone cuts faster and a bit more coarse, but not much and it settles down rapidly.

Ok CJ, here is what I have found.

I got my Swaty 2 days ago. It was pretty rough as I said, but in my excitement, I neglected to take any before pics, so I won't go into a bunch of after pics. Ok, hell with it, I'll go take some pics right now.........

It was rough, as I said, and had plenty of tiny edge chips, a kinda bad one on the corner, and a few stains to make it interesting. Most of the corners were already chipped, so I just removed them.

I had to thoroughly lap both sides as neither was anywhere near to flat. You can see in the pics the color difference between the name indentation and the rest of the stone. I removed all of the old surface, leaving a new, clean and extremely smooth surface on both sides. It's a downright beauty now.

Ok, so, taking it to my PHIG (this is the highest grit stone I have ATM) I rubbed out every scratch or sign of the DMT 325. I must have lapped it on that stone for an hour for it to make any difference overall to the finish. I was hardly getting any swarf off either, but I kept at it.... It now has a finish greatly smoothed by the PHIG on that side. The other side I left freshly lapped by the DMT.

I have around 10 unfinished razors waiting to be restored and honed, so I had no shortage of volunteers to test each of the sides in progression.

I started with an old Blue Steel Solingen that was really really dull. I wanted to see what kind of edge might be brought up on the rough side. Dismal failure as it remained quite dull. So, changing tactics, I decided to take on of my old shavers (my Salamandar) that has a good bevel but just needs some help in bringing the blade back to the comfort level I expect.

I ran the Salamandar ONLY over the unmarked side of the hone (the slick side) a total of 5 laps and tested. 5 more and tested. It was improving with every pass. I stopped after the second pass because I could see that the slick side was going to make it better and eventually I would be happy. I wanted to see if it improved or degraded or what on the 'rougher' side, the 'face' I'll call it.

I ran it 5 times over the face and tested. Already it had made a larger difference than the 'slick' side had in 2 5 lap passes. I finished it on the slick side by running it 5 more laps and tested again. I can put this one away now, it is once again highly polished and felt not the least bit harsh, with no drag or pull. This is with 3 days of beard growth too I might mention. Not an easy job!!! I did no stropping during this experiment.

So, fundamentally, I think all I have proven is what we all suspected anyway. Rough up the surface (or the oposite, buff up a surface) and it will perform differently. The 'rough' side seemed to remove more material than the 'slick' side by a good measure, like 3 to 1 kind of thing.

I repeated the experiment with a marginal Robeson's Best I have been waiting to touch up, and bingo!!!! 1 pass on the rough, 1 pass on the slick and she is ready to go back into rotation.

I was really kind of surprised at the quality of the swaty tho... I wasn't expecting anything special, but I think I'll keep this one. It took a crap ton of work to get it ready for use, but now that it is, I'm not gonna sell this one. She belongs right next to my Aloxite (which cuts like no other hone I have, it must be @6k grit).

I'm really enjoying trying all the different types of barber hones. Like all things I do, I cannot have just 1, I have to have 8, 9 or 10+ of everything so I can make a good choice of which one I want to keep for life.

I hated to give up my frictionite #00, but really, it wasn't much better than this swaty that has now had a lot of love. Several other hones managed just as good an edge also, so I would rather have a 20$ hone and not worry if it chips, than I would a 200$ Frictionite (I got 175 for mine) and freak out if anything happened.

There's my report!!! I hope someone benefits from it. If anyone wants me to repeat this experiment, say with a different hone type (material that is) I would be most happy too.

I have a perfection hone that must be from 10-12k, my aloxite (@6k I would say), this swaty (10+ I would say) a un-named synthetic hone that must be @1k (I'm not kidding either, it must have started life as a pocket knife hone, but now serves as my 'this razor sucks' hone cuz I believe I could put a bevel on a razor with this one) an Anchor brand (8-10k) and I have a couple more coming in first of next week. All that I listed have been lapped, and all edges given a chamfer and chips repaired and/or removed. I particularly enjoy rounding corners for a more 'cared for' look than just points. I also make it a point to remove the top layer of 'crap' that age leaves on these old babies. Edges, ends, both sides, I like it when no trace of the years remains.

I may have gone a little overboard, but that's just how I roll, LOL!!! JK...

I digress, hope this was helpful!!

Happy shaving!

Mike

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p.s. Any discoloration in the pics are finger marks, this baby sucks the moisture right out of your skin. NO kidding either. Anyplace you hold, will pull the oil and moisture right out of your fingers, as evidenced by the dark edges... :)

Thanx for the experiment and the results. I'll give it a try myself soon! =)

Christopher

I've restored a few Swaty's in my day. If you finish it off on wet sandpaper, It'll come out looking new, I went from 400 -1000 grit. The thing is dark brown again, looks new, works great....Here's a couple pics