A magnified comparison of many honing results

Below is a comparison of how many of the most well known stones perform on the same blade. I found this helpful and wanted to share it. Maybe foster some friendly debate. This is where I found the info Zowada Custom Knives - Razor Edges

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This is a quick study I put together while I am learning how to hone razors on a semi-production basis. This is not meant to be a definitive study of the honing qualities of various stones. Rather, it is just meant to give me a basic idea of what's going on.

The stone surfaces, and the razor edges are all at 200x.
The razor is O1/L6 Damascus at 62.5 HRC.
The initial edge is honed at a 15 degree included angle.
The initial edge was a horizontal, along the edge, scratch pattern developed with a Norton 8000 grit hone.
Ten, 5" long" strokes were used on each side of the blade.
Only the weight of the blade was used for pressure.
No stropping was done after honing.
All stones, except Spyderco, were used wet.
No slurry was used on any stone.
All stones were freshly lapped at 2000 grit.

The lapped edges had a Chinese 12000 grit finish for the final honing step.

Here, the edge is viewed at a 52 degree angle. This gives a better idea of how the actual cutting edge looks.

Procedure

1. Hone blade at 15 degrees with Norton 8000.
Hone marks should be at least 0 - 40 degrees relative to edge.

2. Add one layer of 0.006" electrical tape to blade back
This kicks the angle up to 15.75 degrees and gives the test stone a fresh edge to work on.

3. Use ten strokes, 5" long, alternating blade sides.

4. Clean edge with acetone.

5. Photograph under microscope.
The blade was held in place with clay and pushed agianst a 60 degree reference.


[SIZE=2][TABLE="width: 753"]

[TD="align: center"]http://www.tzknives.com/site/Photos/...GEscher3Sm.jpg

Yellow/Green Escher
http://www.tzknives.com/site/Photos/...GEscher1Sm.jpgBue/Green Escher

Attachment 85109Cro2 10 passesAttachment 85110cro2 5 passesAttachment 85111Norton 8 K Attachment 85112Swaty

Here are a few more.Attachment 85094 Chinese 12 K Attachment 85095OhiraAttachment 85096Spyderco UFAttachment 85097 Thuringen

Dude, bad A** stuff... I know it's been around for a while, as Zowada is well known. However, I've never seen them myself, but had been told, so thanks for sharing them.

Amazing how the C12k does so well, eh? I never knew... Also the swaty, surpriiiiiiiiisssssssseeeee!!!! A lot rougher than I imagined. However, I have 4 Swaty's that are all different, and he doesn't say here what age the swaty is (3 line, etc.) as I have an old 3 line that is hard as hell. I know it polishes better than the one in that picture, I've looked at it myself under 30x, not as good as above, but still visible. So, I'm kind of shocked at that pic... Live and learn. :)

Thanks again bro,

Mike

Yes, I am new to this stuff and I found it fascinating and literally "eye opening". I will be more aware during future shopping trips.

Nice!!! This save me from having to buy a microscope and all the time to try this myself. :tu

Looks like I'll keep my C12k and just add a little Cro2.

One last thought. What would it look like after a short ride on a 30k? :dropjaw:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mjhammer

Dude, bad A** stuff... I know it's been around for a while, as Zowada is well known. However, I've never seen them myself, but had been told, so thanks for sharing them.

Amazing how the C12k does so well, eh? I never knew... Also the swaty, surpriiiiiiiiisssssssseeeee!!!! A lot rougher than I imagined. However, I have 4 Swaty's that are all different, and he doesn't say here what age the swaty is (3 line, etc.) as I have an old 3 line that is hard as hell. I know it polishes better than the one in that picture, I've looked at it myself under 30x, not as good as above, but still visible. So, I'm kind of shocked at that pic... Live and learn. :)

Thanks again bro,

Mike

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you need to take into account the angle at which the pic is taken, that changes what you see, i.e scratches on the bevel, dramatically.

Ahh well this explains my recent failures in shaving. I was going off the pic at coticule.be. It shows a pretty visible scratch pattern. I kinda always thought when people said "mirror", they were just embellishing for the sake of clarity. Apparently, it really is a mirror finish. Geez, don't I feel silly. Back to the hones I go.

Ummmm

Ok a few things here

1. Did you ask Tim to use his Pics??? (That I am asking as an SRP Mod)
2. The scratch pattern means nothing to the shaving comfort
3. Note the Pasted strop pics
4. The sides of the bevel are only a very small part of the equation
5. Once you strop on linen and leather all this changes
6. All these pics are great, but they are not acurate portrayals of what you should expect on your face..

Be very very careful when you try to make correlations with microscopic pics of the bevel, and how good a stone is for actual shaving :(


Think of this about the same way you look at the pretty radar pics on the evening weather, they showing something , but only walking outside will tell you what is really going on :)

Yep, the Chinese 12K is a an excellent finisher for very little money.

I had seen the pictures before.

Sharpman

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Ummmm

Ok a few things here

1. Did you ask Tim to use his Pics??? (That I am asking as an SRP Mod)
2. The scratch pattern means nothing to the shaving comfort
3. Note the Pasted strop pics
4. The sides of the bevel are only a very small part of the equation
5. Once you strop on linen and leather all this changes
6. All these pics are great, but they are not acurate portrayals of what you should expect on your face..

Be very very careful when you try to make correlations with microscopic pics of the bevel, and how good a stone is for actual shaving :(


Think of this about the same way you look at the pretty radar pics on the evening weather, they showing something , but only walking outside will tell you what is really going on :)

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Boo!! Can we give a thumbs-down to comments??

The guy is only expressing an observation. Never did he state that his observation is a direct correlation with quality of shave/hone. Let the man share his observation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Str8RazorSerg

Boo!! Can we give a thumbs-down to comments??

The guy is only expressing an observation. Never did he state that his observation is a direct correlation with quality of shave/hone. Let the man share his observation.

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But as #1 in gssixguns post states these aren't really HIS observations! they are pictures from a different web site that the OP has linked to but before I clicked on the link (which I did AFTER seeing gs's post FWIW) I assumed the pictures were the OPs and and the link was to HIS web site including the same information of HIS findings.

I think also what is being said is that while looking at a magnified edge/bevle is all well and good you never really know how or how well a stone performs until you put the steal to the skin! So use the photos not to judge how well a stone has done at honing but if you are on the right track and done have burr's and other anomalies. (glen please correct me if I am wrong/misinterpreted your post)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Str8RazorSerg

Boo!! Can we give a thumbs-down to comments??

The guy is only expressing an observation. Never did he state that his observation is a direct correlation with quality of shave/hone. Let the man share his observation.

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The problem with many newbies is that they see some pictures of flawless looking bevels and thing this is the holly grail of honing a razor.
No it is not, because if you take pics at different angles to the bevel you will see different scratch pattern on every one of them. I am not saying the pics were intentionally taken this way to mislead people, but there is more than one side to the coin.
I understand the fascination with the shown results on those pics, but sometimes post like that just reinforce the false notion that the bevel has to be flawless after it comes off the stones. That is impossible to achieve in reasonable amount of time, and also not what makes the shaves great.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BenjamanBarker

But as #1 in gssixguns post states these aren't really HIS observations! they are pictures from a different web site that the OP has linked to but before I clicked on the link (which I did AFTER seeing gs's post FWIW) I assumed the pictures were the OPs and and the link was to HIS web site including the same information of HIS findings.

I think also what is being said is that while looking at a magnified edge/bevle is all well and good you never really know how or how well a stone performs until you put the steal to the skin! So use the photos not to judge how well a stone has done at honing but if you are on the right track and done have burr's and other anomalies. (glen please correct me if I am wrong/misinterpreted your post)

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An observation is an observation, regardless of where it was observed from. I agree that it doesn't mean squat until proven by putting steel-to-face, so it's a given that people should take it for what it's worth. I think the OP was just sharing what he found...nothing more.

One thing that I always like to see with pictures is the other side of the bevel..........

Agree that the lighting and angle can change a lot of the perception.

Follow up comments regarding any particular pics of the bevel from a particular stone and their correlation to shaving with that bevel would be nice. But then you have to take into account all the individual variabilities and preferences.

To me, always worth the exercise for that individual.

Have fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Str8RazorSerg

Boo!! Can we give a thumbs-down to comments??

The guy is only expressing an observation. Never did he state that his observation is a direct correlation with quality of shave/hone. Let the man share his observation.

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I think you just did,,, Which by the way is excatly what I did, but somehow you didn't like my observation :( just like I didn't agree with the OP's observation...
Mostly because it isn't his work so he has no basis to compare these edges, which makes them just pretty pics that mean nothing to honing...
But when you toss the pics up, you get responses like in post #7 from another newer guy who just assumed he needs to go back to the hones and try for a mirrored bevel... Which won't make a bit of difference to how the razor shaves...
Then you get respones like mine and Mainaman trying to clarify the situation which you didn't like :shrug: ...

I often use a 10x and 20x loupe to check the bevel during honing. But can never really see the edge which when perfect disappears from view.

My college science classes help me to appreciate that light microscope images like these are tricky to obtain. These are very nice depictions of the bevel and edge, albeit from one side. An electron microscope is even better. The Complete Guide to Sharpening by Leonard Lee confirms results similar to these optical images. The electron microscope revealed that the 8000 grit followed by CrO was near perfect on chisels. Yes, the woodworking guys are almost obsessed with sharpness as we SR guys.

These and other images confirm that there is a difference in the results expected from various stones. However, I bet in experienced hands most can yield good shaving results. I for one welcome more objective evaluation of blade sharpness. Thanks for sharing Lynn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

2. The scratch pattern means nothing to the shaving comfort
4. The sides of the bevel are only a very small part of the equation
5. Once you strop on linen and leather all this changes

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I agree completely with what Gary says in 2,4 and 5.

My comments were directed to the edge on the C12k and the Cro2.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

One thing that I always like to see with pictures is the other side of the bevel..........

Agree that the lighting and angle can change a lot of the perception.

Follow up comments regarding any particular pics of the bevel from a particular stone and their correlation to shaving with that bevel would be nice. But then you have to take into account all the individual variabilities and preferences.

To me, always worth the exercise for that individual.

Have fun.

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And by way of kissing up, I agree with Lynn also.

Above all, as has been pointed out by so many others in the past. It's your personal experience with the shave after honing and stropping.

I have a tough face and almost never get a rash or tenderness, but I am a baby if I feel the blade pulling on the hairs.

I am magnification man. I post this link in all microscope threads!

http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...ent-light.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Str8RazorSerg

Boo!! Can we give a thumbs-down to comments??

The guy is only expressing an observation. Never did he state that his observation is a direct correlation with quality of shave/hone. Let the man share his observation.

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"The guy" has shared his (or rather someone else's) observation (with appropriate attribution I might add, but someone else's work nevertheless). Now others are sharing their observations to help put the original observations into context.

James.

EDIT: OK, I see I am late to this party. However, I fail to see what the hoo-haa is. This is a forum, things get discussed. Rather than discussing how we discuss things, why don't we try debating the actual thing itself? For example, are any of Glen's points invalid? If so, why?

On the topic of whose work is whose, the OP, IME, gave very fair and open attribution to Zowada and never claimed the pictures as his own. His wording might not have been as clear as it could have been, but when read carefully (not just reading the title and jumping to the pics) he has referenced the originating author of the material appropriately.

This has been in our library since February, 2009: Bevels produced by various hones - Straight Razor Place Wiki

[QUOTE=Jimbo;891844why don't we try debating the actual thing itself? For example, are any of Glen's points invalid? If so, why? [/QUOTE]


I agree :)

So in the spirit that the thread was intended, allow me to comment on those pics.

I have seen these before some time ago. I believe Zowada posted them here at SRP when he did them actually, IIRC. First, stating the obvious, one side does not a sharp edge make. These are magnified pictures of one side of an edge of one razor, and if I needed proof of which of the actual honing media Zowada owns gives me a nice side of an edge of one of his razors under those lighting conditions, angles, part of the blade, specific microscope, day, water type, atmospheric conditions, etc etc. I need look no further than these glorious pictures.

Yes, I know I am being heavy-handed here, but what does one replication on one day tell you about anything? Would you infer the efficacy of a drug for the entire population based on a single experiment of its effect on one person on one day? Of course not. And I for one do not see why we should not try to apply a similar level of rigour to what we do, or at least make people aware of lack of rigour and its implications.

Don't get me wrong, I think that this kind of exploration is excellent and potentially quite useful, and I would encourage continuing endeavours along these lines - it is all more data, after all. But as it stands it is very inconclusive and rather ambiguous.

James.

I think Tim did an excellent job of making the lighting as consistent as possible for these pictures. Of all the microscope pictures I have seen here (my own included), these seem to be the best for consistency.

Maxim did something like this too and he compared many finishing stones.
Was good, but the light angle or something was different between a few
pictures. Sometimes the bevel was very shiny whereas in others it was like
there was very little reflection.

Sharpman

As a new guy, seeing the pics was nice, but hearing all of your opinions on it was what made it value added.

I think that everyone will agree here, when we are talking about natural stones, even synthetics, between two stones of the same type, be that ohira, C12k or thuringian, the edge they give vary a lot. For thuringians, coticules and C12k their estimated grit may vary between 8k to 15k. For the ohira between 5k and 50k etc etc. Looking at one picture of one razor honed on one stone will not bring you closer to the holy grail of the ultimate edge.
The other thing I have observed is, there are some slate type hones like yellow lake or everkeen. When I hone with them with water, they give what appears to be a mirror finish, and the edge magnified looks very fine. And they shave fine. When I switch them to oil, the scratch pattern worsen, but the feeling while shaving improves. What you see under magnification is not by far a guarantee that you will have a pleasant shave.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gammaray

I often use a 10x and 20x loupe to check the bevel during honing. But can never really see the edge which when perfect disappears from view.

My college science classes help me to appreciate that light microscope images like these are tricky to obtain. These are very nice depictions of the bevel and edge, albeit from one side. An electron microscope is even better. The Complete Guide to Sharpening by Leonard Lee confirms results similar to these optical images. The electron microscope revealed that the 8000 grit followed by CrO was near perfect on chisels. Yes, the woodworking guys are almost obsessed with sharpness as we SR guys.

These and other images confirm that there is a difference in the results expected from various stones. However, I bet in experienced hands most can yield good shaving results. I for one welcome more objective evaluation of blade sharpness. Thanks for sharing Lynn.

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Im fairly new to straight razors honing but experienced in the woodworking sharpening for many years,you can put a mirror finish on a chisel even a dollar store chisel but it wont last long, the same on a Witherby will last, but they will look the same.
So once again the pic are cool but to many variable, the more and more im into honing the only way is to test shave.

Once again, I'm late to the party... Please don't make more out of these photos than what they are:

This is not meant to be a definitive study of the honing qualities of various stones. Rather, it is just meant to give me a basic idea of what's going on.

I originally posted them because I thought they might be useful to someone else. I've learned a lot about microscopes and edges since then. Mostly, that you need at least 1000x to really see what is going on, in terms of whether the edge will be a good shaver. That is getting in to electron microscope territory. Especially if you want good photos.

Lynn is right, the best and easiest way to decide what you like is to shave with it (my paraphrase).

Someone, with good technique, can make a fantastic shaver with an 8000 grit hone. Nerds, like me, like to tinker...

Tim Z.

Fortunately, posting thes pics did as I intended. They sparked healthy debate. I may be a new guy but I do research and I don't take things for granted. The pictures were enough to help me decide to get even more information. I mentioned this same quote when I posted.

Quote:

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This is not meant to be a definitive study of the honing qualities of various stones. Rather, it is just meant to give me a basic idea of what's going on.

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Tim my apologies I did not get your permission before posting them.
I still enjoyed them Thank You. :-)

Mr Tim, I have to ask, where did you find this Chinese stone from the photos? Seems a bit finer than most of the Chinese hones out there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

Mr Tim, I have to ask, where did you find this Chinese stone from the photos? Seems a bit finer than most of the Chinese hones out there.

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They vary wildly, I have two bought from the same seller, one is average and nothing special, the second is awesome and can hang with some darn nice expensive finishers.

I know. I have 4 so far. I thought that his seller might have higher standards or something like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HNSB

This has been in our library since February, 2009: Bevels produced by various hones - Straight Razor Place Wiki

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Funny, I was thinking the same thing

"Everything old,is new again"



Unless you use the search feature.:shrug: Or read the wiki :shrug:

Membudo - Don't worry about it. They have been part of the wiki for a long time. Just don't try to draw too many conclusions from those photos.

Vasills - That Chinese hone came from Woodcraft. It is the large size. The thing to remember is all hones need to be properly lapped before use. The Chinese hones are especially bad from the quarry. Lapped to 2000 grit, they make a pretty good finish hone. Don't plan to move much metal with them though...

Tim Z.