what finishing hone should I buy?

Good day,
my name is Dan. I hone my razors on norton 4k/8k then I progress to Chinese natural 12k (thick slurry then thin the slurry and finally water for a total of about 400 strokes!) then I do a few laps on Chromium oxide pasted balsa strop, then 0.35 micron diamond on felt (don't feel this does much though unfortunately). and finally 60 laps on steerhide leather strop.
this gets my razors shave ready but not as sharp and smooth as disposable blades. ( I have tried Gillette nacet and feather and my straight razors are not that sharp).

I was wondering just how good are japanese natural hones (I know each one is different) but in general how much sharper can you go with a Nakayama asagi as opposed to the chinese 12k? then there is ofcourse the problem is with my cnat being extremely slow I don't even feel progress as the blade gets sharper.

I looked at some of the hones at thejapanblade.com and I am thinking of getting a stone but I am not sure yet.

how about eschers? are they much better than my current finishing lineup? I am trying to get to the sharpness level of a "feather" disposable blade.

how about coticules? I heared they are very versatile stones but versetility is not exactly what I am looking for right now I need a good finisher. I read somewhere that their "grit" is 8000 and with slurry it goes down to about 5k. on paper 8k is not high enough of a finisher.

Please help me I am perplexed.

Dan

Dan, IMHO, a naniwa 12k superstone, or a shapton 16k would probably be more apt to get you to a similar feel of a feather or a gillette blade. That is assuming you have the hand to get the most out of the stone. The naturals are variable whereas the synthetics are all the same. I'm not knocking naturals. I use eschers but I don't want a straight razor that feels like a feather blade. I want more smoothness and that is what I get from the escher. I was taught to first get a good shave , on a regular basis, honing up to the 8k level. Once I had the skill set to do that I had confidence that I was not moving up the grit ladder prematurely. I thank Randydance for giving me that instruction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danielghofrani

Good day,
my name is Dan. I hone my razors on norton 4k/8k then I progress to Chinese natural 12k (thick slurry then thin the slurry and finally water for a total of about 400 strokes!) then I do a few laps on Chromium oxide pasted balsa strop, then 0.35 micron diamond on felt (don't feel this does much though unfortunately). and finally 60 laps on steerhide leather strop.
this gets my razors shave ready but not as sharp and smooth as disposable blades.
Please help me I am perplexed.

Dan[/LEFT]

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Dan

Just for the fun of it, next time you hone a blade, stop honing when you are finished on the CrOx balsa. You may be overdoing it with the diamond on felt. Try a test shave after the balsa and do not press too hard when stropping. Give it a try.....

Jerry

Jimmy tells ya right, Daniel.

On finishing, a member communicating w/ Heribert Wacker's son mentioned that HW thought anything above 10k was a waste. Glen will often say that anything above 8k is all subjective personal preference. You start shopping naturals, and you're gonna part w/ some money. And it won't guarantee you'll have a good stone - or that you'll know how to use it well. Plus, you're going to run into blades/steels that don't like your nice new natural. Having the synthetic finisher gives you a reliable fallback position. Nani, Shapton - Lynn has posted favorably about the Sigma 13k. When a blade gives me fits, I reach for the Nani. I may use some CBN after that, but the edge from the stone is quite respectable.

400 strokes, as in 200 laps, on just the PHIG?????

Or are you talking 400 laps on the PHIG (people's hone of indeterminate grit) that is between 400 and 800 chances of messing up that super fine edge with 1 mis-stroke...

What kind of razor???

Finishers don't really impart sharpness they do smoothness, or at least should :)

Too many questions :p

Dan, the equipment you already have is more than ample to get the edges you want. Your skill level is simply not there yet.
Patience & practice is what you need. Buying expensive Jnats & Coticules at this stage will still perplex you but in a more expensive way :)

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Dan, IMHO, a naniwa 12k superstone, or a shapton 16k would probably be more apt to get you to a similar feel of a feather or a gillette blade.
....snip.....

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A feather is a tough act to follow.
The Na12K is a good recommendation it is
the first hone that got me close to a feather.

You have a Norton 4k/8k and a natural hone.
I might suggest you drip any slurry from your
Norton 8k on your C12k for a while and hone
with that then water. Just a bit to make washing
any swarf and glaze off easy.

Once the surface of the C12K has smoothed
just use it with water. Building a slurry could generate
"chunks" that dull a good edge. i.e. In my opinion you do not need
a c12k slurry to finish the edge after the 8K norton.

My bet is that the C12K slurry is getting in the way.

Limit yourself to 20 hone strokes on the C12K you should
already have a good shave from the Norton 8k and just
want to polish it a bit. They are slow but that is what
you need at this stage.

C12K's are slow, but 200/400 is madness, there's no need for that many strokes/laps.
I tend to use slurry with mine, but a quite thin one, and as I dip the razor in the sink about every 5 laps, it's gone fairly quickly, and I usually end with 20-40 laps on clear water, it varies.

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I was taught to first get a good shave , on a regular basis, honing up to the 8k level. Once I had the skill set to do that I had confidence that I was not moving up the grit ladder prematurely. I thank Randydance for giving me that instruction.

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+1 on the above, you have more than enough stones to get great shaves already without looking for the holy grail. All the stones you mention also give great shaves but are just different and differ in terms of learning curve and skill and you'll just get frustrated and waste money.

Get all you can out the 8k and then move to 20-50 laps on the cnat on water and you should be good to go ;)

Dan hows the shave off the 8k ?

If you get a somewhat shave ready off the 8k, then moving to a perfectly lapped PHIG, with at the most 100 strokes should be
a very good edge, well at least it is for me and many others 400 makes no sense to me.
Instead of buying new stones make the one you allready have work for you.

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Originally Posted by eleblu05

Dan hows the shave off the 8k ?

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Thanks for the replies everyone.
the shave off the 8k is possible but it is not smooth.

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Originally Posted by danielghofrani

Thanks for the replies everyone.
the shave off the 8k is possible but it is not smooth.

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If you make your razor shave ready or shavable and smooth on the 8k then hit the finisher your in for a treat!!

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Originally Posted by pinklather

Jimmy tells ya right, Daniel.

On finishing, a member communicating w/ Heribert Wacker's son mentioned that HW thought anything above 10k was a waste. Glen will often say that anything above 8k is all subjective personal preference. You start shopping naturals, and you're gonna part w/ some money. And it won't guarantee you'll have a good stone - or that you'll know how to use it well. Plus, you're going to run into blades/steels that don't like your nice new natural. Having the synthetic finisher gives you a reliable fallback position. Nani, Shapton - Lynn has posted favorably about the Sigma 13k. When a blade gives me fits, I reach for the Nani. I may use some CBN after that, but the edge from the stone is quite respectable.

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+1 on the Sigma 13K

I should note that the Sigma is not better than
the Naniwa 12k but is different. If you have Naniwa
hones then the 12k is a good next hone. If you are
not adding to a pile of Naniwa hones then there
are multiple choices that are marked from 10k to 16k
and seem to be about equal except on the price...

After honing I do like a submicron pasted strop but
limit myself to 20--40 strokes. CrOx, CeOx, Diamond, CBN
only one pasted strop makes sense to me. Some folk strop 100
or more strokes but for me 40-50 light smooth deliberate
strokes is all I need.

Back to CrOx, CeOx, Diamond, CBN... I have come to the
opinion that these will condition the canvas strop and once the stropping
material picks up a load of steel the pasted strop becomes self
maintaining because the iron in the steel oxidizes and iron oxide is
as good a polishing agent as any. A production honemaster
like Lynn, Don, Glenn, etc will want more 'additive' because time is money.

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Originally Posted by danielghofrani

Thanks for the replies everyone.
the shave off the 8k is possible but it is not smooth.

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here it is the best advice anyone has given me is get the 8k down take the time to get the 8k right once you do that every thing after that will fall into place !

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Originally Posted by eleblu05

here it is the best advice anyone has given me is get the 8k down take the time to get the 8k right once you do that every thing after that will fall into place !

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This can be said of all the grits before 8k also but of course proceeding past 8k with a poor shavetest is a recipe for frustration.

IMO, the JNat I got from Alex at japanblade was well worth it. I picked up one of the smaller ones, but when it's used like a Barbers hone (finisher) size is not a issue.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

400 strokes, as in 200 laps, on just the PHIG?????

.................................... on the PHIG (people's hone of indeterminate grit) .............

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I see what you did there, lol.

Sharpman