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Let me start off by saying I'm new to honing. I needed a touching up stone and after watching a bunch of videos I figured it was between the Naniwa ss 12000 or Shapton 16000. I went with the Naniwa and it arrived today. I opened the box expecting to see a pinkish stone but it was white and said "New Ceramics". Is this Naniwa's response to the Shapton 16000?
Attachment 106507
Looks like mine. Pull the sticker off, throw some water on it for a minute or two, flatten it, and enjoy.
They work quite nicely!
It is NOT a ceramic hone, I think perhaps it is 12k ceramic bits in a matrix. It will form a slurry for you, trust me.
Ok thanks. I guess they just changed it's color.
Mine came attached to a little stand...
I have both the above mentioned stones and I perfer the ss to the shapton. And the SS is much cheaper.Quote:
Originally Posted by rcavazos1922
Stingray
I don't think ceramic or not has anything to do with the slurrying ability. It has to do with the type of abrasive in the stone. Ceramic alumina is a tougher abrasive than aluminum oxide used in older stones.
At the risk of butchering exactly what the difference is between all of the abrasives:
* aluminum oxide is a term thrown around, but there are a lot of different types. it's a sharp abrasive that at least in some versions is friable
* ceramic alumina is a type manufactured by a process that makes it very tough
What makes a stone "ceramic" or not is probably whether or not it uses ceramic alumina. The binder will be resin (like a shapton), magnesia (like a chosera), or maybe even vitrified (old norton india stones are vitrified, but they are not ceramic alumina as far as I know).
So if you put ceramic alumina in a resin or magnesia stone that has a soft binder, it will still slurry. If it slurries fast, one would wonder what the reason would be to have such a tough abrasive, because it won't be around long.
My comment was based on my concern when I received my stone that it was a solid brick of ceramic like the Spyderco hones which do not slurry at all...they are not a water stone, they are a solid ceramic.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
While solid ceramics can be nice, I was expecting a water stone...and that is what I received in spite of the appearance and initial concerns;)
Yeah, they are a super smooth stone. Like a notch up in fineness and feel vs. the other softer stones that are the old clay binder type.
Actually, I have no idea what the binder is in a superstone, but I did have the 12k for a while for woodworking (Before razor use). I wish I'd have kept it, it was a bit too soft for my taste for woodworking tools, but it had a great feel.
I was thinking the same thing. I thought it was going to be like the rods on the Spyderco Sharp Maker "correct name?"
I love my Naniwa SS - got a nice feel and have been quite easy for me to get to grips with them. I, too initially had the 12K to maintain the edge of shave ready blades, although I had to get the lower grit ones after a while.
BTW my 12K is also white.....
Ash
Interesting. I've just ordered my whole Naniwa set. I went for the Chosera 1K, then SS 3K, 5K, 8K and 12K. I got them from a website in germany as naniwa supply them with stones without the plastic holder which is normally glued or screwed in. I've bought a stone holder so it means I should be able to use both sides prior to getting the truing stone out.Quote:
Originally Posted by turando72
I've not honed yet. Where would you advise I start? I've got around a dozen shave ready razors so do you think I should start with those on the 12K or the 8k?
Bevel setting and all that i will do in the future. Just wanted to get the whole kit in.
Do you know if the stones are ready to go or do they need lapped? really looking forward to giving them ago.
Cheers
John
I just got the 1k, 3k and the 8k. Definitley lap them. I did the checkerboard with a pencil and all three stones were humped in the middle. If I were you I would keep one pro honed razor untouched so you have something to compare your honing to it.
Yes, I've also ordered the Naniwa flattening stone; I think it can be used with the aluminum oxide powder or just water. I dont want to go near any of my vintage razors until I have some idea in what Im doing. But buying cheap eBay 10quid jobs to practice on will probably require bevel setting, but I've got to start somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scookum
Is it true the Naniwa stones just need a little water, as oppose to soaking them for 15mins like the Nortons?
John, in my opinion, if your razors are/were shave ready it might not be necessary to go down to the lower grits initially. They probably just need touching up with the 12k. Given that you know what shave ready is, I guess you can then tell if the 12k is doing the trick or not. If not, I would then go to the 8k.Quote:
Originally Posted by postmastergeneral
Having said that, I'm no expert but it seemed to work for me (beginner's luck maybe?)
Cheers,
Ash
I soak mine for about 5 minutes. Some just spritz water and go. I just figure its a wetstone a should stabilize in water before using but thats just me.
I soak mine for about 5 mins before useQuote:
Originally Posted by postmastergeneral
The Super Stones are not ceramic, the grit is resin bound.
Ceramic is a very broad ranged word and can mean quite a few different materials.
When talking about ceramic it can mean a clay based material, a form of glass, or aluminum oxide. A true 100% ceramic whetstone is usually aluminum oxide sintered just under aluminum oxides melting point fuzing the particles together but keeping it's abrasive form.
It's like the word whetslate, a term used for any natural rock good for making whetstones (an old term).
I would like to hear from someone who owns the pink 12k SS and the "new ceramic" 12k SS to see if they are indeed different or not.
The super stones have always been resin bound no matter the colorQuote:
Originally Posted by xMackx
So, how does it differ from say, the Shapton GS series. I guess you could use it between the 8k and 16k GS?
I've read, in recent threads, of synthetic wetstones developing cracks or wandering out of flat from repeated soaking and drying. It's probably worth a little care to keep them away from temperature extremes, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scookum
I'm a little concerned about this too. Could someone knowledgeable please post the does and don'ts regarding the correct (safe) treatment of Naniwa SS and Chosera stones?
From what I can recall (the instructions are in japanese on the stone, I don't read japanese).Quote:
Originally Posted by CatMan
* soak choseras for 15 minutes or so, but never more than an hour. Allow them to try in a "normal" temperature environment, keep them away from hot areas and direct sunlight, and don't let them freeze.
* superstones, generally splash them when you want to use them. They are not hard enough to need to be soaked. I don't know what their binder is, either - probably a soft resin binder, but the choseras are magnesia.
Don't let either of them soak indefinitely and don't forget about them even for several hours. Don't subject them to wild temperature changes.
And don't worry too much about the instructions, just think of them as "don't soak your stone forever and don't use or store them in hot or sunny areas"
Hi Catman / DaveW: I've just bought a set of stones from this German outfit as they sell them without the plastic glued holders, something that is not available here in the UK. On their website they say this:Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
IMPORTANT NOTE on storage and lubrication: Chosera sharpening stones are bound with magnesium and so have more cutting particles per unit of surface than resin-bound stones. But magnesium-bound stones are much more sensitive to prolonged exposure to water as other types of stones. So Chosera stones should NOT be left to soak in water for prolonged periods and must be stored dry. If this advice is not followed the stones can develop hairline cracks or the binding material can be leached out of the stone. It is more than enough to pour a little water on the surface or briefly dip the stones in water, they do not need to be soaked. If you are not sure that you can keep this always in mind, perhaps because you have a number of different kinds of sharpening stones, it may be better to opt for the more tolerant Super Stones.
It looks like the Chosera's are more intollerable to soaking than the SS. I dont think I'll be soaking any of mine, unlike the Nortons.
Japanese Waterstones: Naniwa Chosera
I had crazing on my cho 10k before I sold it. Nothing that couldn't be lapped off and nothing you could feel with a razor.
But as far as dipping them real quickly, they are an entirely different animal with 15 minutes of soaking than they are with just a dip or splash, and for the better. I only have two left (the 400 and 3000), but both of those also respond so well to the 10 to 15 minute soak. the 3000 goes from a very blah hard feeling stone to one that is exceptional action with a 15 minute soak.
It may make no difference on razors, unless you're restoring, you'd spend no time on anything but the 10k, and even at that, not much time on it.
But for tools, the short soak gives them such a super feel compared to any other synthetic stone with that hardness.
I have had trouble with some vendors in the past, not being willing to tell me what's in stones. When I ask a vendor what type of binder a stone has, even in general terms, and they tell me it's a "trade secret" or "proprietary information"...well, i don't like that.
I sure have never asked stu tierney a question like that and didn't get an answer.
I like the choseras best of all stones I've tried for woodworking, but soaking a stone and remembering to get it out when you use a stone several times each session for woodworking is a recipe for disaster where I'll leave one in for a day sooner or later, so my choseras get spot duty while the shapton pros get used the most. Even the shaptons feel a little better with a soak, but they also cannot be left in water, and I rarely bother to do it.
Unless the vendor actually made the stones, or has a binding contract with the manufacturer, the only reason I can think for not telling what the binder is is that they don't know. Ancient Chinese secret, my a$$.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
