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Hones, Stones, Grind-stones article From Museum, Register, Journal, and Gazette 1835. Very interesting description and uses of different hones.
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It looks like it was copied right out of holtzappfel volume 3.
Thank for sharing this info Martin,
also if is curious that at points 15 and 16 are described the belgian coticule caractheristics, but named German water hone.
I think there was a bit of confusion in the past.
Not quite since this article was published before volume 3 came out.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Perhaps holtzappfel copied it, the descriptions for some things are word for word. Or maybe he provided it, since he was deceased prior to the publication of the first edition of III in 1850.
I would think it's discussing what we call coticule also. Have never seen the term "old rock" described for thuringians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushdoctor
Well, coticule are called so from Roman times !Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
The description matches a coticule but the region mention is Ratisbon, and that is the former English name for Regensburg and thats in Germany?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushdoctor
How many yellow thuringian stones have we ever seen that were glued to blue slate?
Maybe it's a case of the author relying on information from someone else and getting it confused.
Yes, is true. I think the people in the past drink a bit too much, but they have the fortune to live without our stupid modern laws.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin103
It came from where it says it did at the top of Martin's article - Richard Knight.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
He presented the Society of The Arts with a collection of hone stones and grindstones together with a descriptive catalogue. Richard Knight (1768-1844) was a founder member of the Geological Society of London (Sir Humphrey Davy was another founder member). The Society received its Charter from King George IV in 1825.
Knight was the son of an ironmonger who became a well regarded chemist and equipment designer and instrument maker in his day - he developed the first method of making platinum malleable, which had profound results on the work into alloys of Faraday and Stodart.
Regards,
Neil
Neil, what do you think about the coticule or thuringian confusion for the "German water hone" description?
Has there been convention in the UK to call coticules something else?
I'll tell you what irritates me .... the description of the Turkey stone. The greatest thing since sliced bread according to more than one writer from that era. A friend of mine in Missouri went on a mission buying Turkey stones both vintage and lately harvested. He had a mess of them and all he found out was they break easily and he never found one that surpassed the known naturals in the straight razor world. What were those folks, back then, finding coming out of Turkey ? :hmmm:
I gathered from the discussion of stones that the virtue of the turkey stones was that it was friable mixed among a sea of stones that weren't much so. either holtzappfel or somewhere else there was a description that led you to believe that a cutler or cabinetmaker may have flattened a turkey stone several times in the same session.
If you were sharpening turning tools, cabinetmaking tools, carpenters tools, etc, and forced to use only a charnley forest, an idwall or a hone slate, you would greatly appreciate the extra speed that you'd get from a friable stone, especially if some of the tools were on the hard side.
But for the final finish on a razor, friable in natural abrasive sizes is bad, right? They just couldn't be that fine, just like any other natural stone that sheds itself uncontrollably.
The later version that describes the washita stone would lead a razor user to figure that it is an ideal single stone, but they are just slightly too coarse for regular razor use. They are fantastic for carbon steel tools in the often presented fantasy dilemma of only being able to have and use one stone for complete maintenance of cutting tools. Probably would make a nice prep stone for a translucent on a razor, and I'm sure you could shave off of one, but it would be more of a challenge to see how you could do it rather than the hope that it would present itself as an ideal stone, right?
Sham has told me several times they are around 8k level only...Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
What we have to remember is that as recently as the 60’s & 70’s information was not as readily available and certainly not in the wealth and depth it is today. A lot of misinformation existed because the knowledge base just did not exist to dispute it.
Information was passed word of mouth and in books, so you had to buy the books or go to a library that had them. People used what was locally available and I’m sure vendors would say or brand whatever they could get away with. Like the internet… just because someone wrote it down does not mean it was true or accurate.
As of the 70’s Arkansas stones were, here in the US thought to be top of the line by most. An 8X3 Translucent or Black commanded 30-40 dollars, big money in those days, for a rock. Honing information and supplies came from your Barber, your information was limited to how much your barber knew or who his source was… the salesman.
Sham evidently has not tried enough of them, then. I think my views about some of his views are well known, so I'll say no more...
Regards,
Neil
The main thing here is defining what a 'Turkey Stone' actually is - or was. Even it's origins are obscure - The Levant, Crete (known as Candia in ancient times, hence 'candia' stone), Naxos/Oxa stone (Crete again - Naxos was a city on the Oxa mountain), Naxos (the Greek island, the eastern side was a source of emery in ancient times), Smyrna, etc, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
The older stones come in several shades, mainly black, dark grey and white. Among these the finest finishers - in excess of an 8k equivalent stone are found, as I know from experiments performed on very many of these stones.
The modern type - yes, there is a source and many people use them - are an inferior stone. This is the type that Sham tested, as I well remember from the pics of the stones he had. Used with water, with a heavy slurry, they set bevels and cut quickly. As the slurry is worked it becomes finer, and in effect you pass through several grades of stone. Many people from the old Coticule.be website use this type of turkey stone in conjunction with a coticule, finishing with the coticule. As I would (again, from very, very many experiments) average out a mid-range coticule as being equivalent to at least a 10k stone, then I can well believe the newer turkey stones top-out at 8k or less. However, if steeped in oil for a few weeks (olive oil is fine) and then used with oil, they cut a bit finer.
The modern type is not as prone to fracturing as the old type - I have large slabs of it that show no sign of fracturing at all. The older type seems very prone to fracturing, usually comes in odd-sized pieces due to its propensity to crack, and is often confined tightly in a tailor-made wooden base to prevent it separating. Every old one I have seen has been used with oil.
The name seems to have become a blanket-type designation for fast-cutting hones leaving fine edges. In time the practice of calling any such hone a 'turkey stone' was adopted, no matter where it came from. There are instances of welsh hones being called turkey stone (as well as 'grecian') as well as arkansas hones, even though the originals appear not to be novaculite (nor slate-like, for that matter).
Regards,
Neil
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
I'm not sure, Dave. As you say, there is a lot of confusion. The only different names used in the past for coticules were 'old rock' belgian hone and belgian yellow stone. In the time I spent in art departments learning screen and intaglio printing, the suppliers catalogues always mentioned german blue and grey polishing stones.
What is for sure is that there is/was extensive quarrying in Regensburg/Bavarian area. Regensburg, BTW, is the same as Ratisbon. Hugh Murray (1779 - 1846) in his Encyclopaedia of Geography mentions many of the rock types from the region and includes gneiss. horneblende, lydian stone, clay-slates, silica-slates, garnet-bearing rocks, slate-whetstones, sandstones, marbles, limestones etc, etc. There is a sample of ratisbon hone in a US museum that has been analysed and found comparable with the belgian coticule. An 1892 volume of The Mechanical News says that the ratisbon razor hone and blue polishing stone may be found as an outcrop in a river bed in the area - Ratisbon is in Bavaria at the joining of the Danube and Regen rivers.
Until it is proven otherwise, I have no especial difficulty in trusting that there was indeed a yellow ratisbon razor hone. Note that the early sources say 'near Ratisbon' so it is probable that Ratisbon was a distribution centre for german-mined products.
Regards,
Neil
wow that was a great read i didnt know that the liyn idwall and the cutters green stone come from snowdon . both stones are green i wonder if the cutters green is really a liyn idwall stone ?
Thanks for that explanation, Neil. Interesting that there was an accumulation of garnets somewhere other than where coticules seem to come from now, unless I'm misreading that.
We're on the same page about what a turkey stone is, at least from what I was talking about - the soft friable ones from greece, and not any of the number of stones called turkey stones later. I've seen several brownish arkansas stones sold here as "turkey" stones, don't know where that comes from but they definitely weren't what I was expecting when one person told me they'd mail me a "turkey stone" if I'd like to try it.
Lots of interesting information in this thread! Those who found those hone descriptions informative might also enjoy this link I stumbed across recently. The hone descriptions start on page 15.
(1895) Essay on Barbers' Razors, Razor Hones, Razor Stropes & Razor Honing
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Originally Posted by MattW
This is also in our Wiki.......
Here a couple more mentions of the Ratisbon yellow hone from germany.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
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Just found this old post and only wanted to add my personal interpretation. From what i found till now it seems there is no „Ratisbon Razor Hone“. Its mentioned several times in older literature, also there was an old thin cut copper engraved in one if the older books.
What i found is for sure that sharpening stones and razor hones have been sold in Regensburg / Ratisbon from several suppliers. It often appears that hones are sold under other names then they normally should from their origin. This means often countries which imported the stones from another country did a marketing that way that the stones have been quarried from the country where those were sold in.
Its all a game of wrong labelling and wrong marketing....the history wrote down its own version of things which must not be 100% on the correct side.
I found Coticules being sold as German Hones, i found thuringians sold a British Hones or „british made“ i found Coticules names as German Hickory Hones.....
Holtzapfel mentions a German yellow Razor Hone which was known as „Old Rock“ so here we actually can see its total bullshit and nonsense. As a view from Holtzapfel himself it probably was reality at this time, or it was the only information available for him. But as we can see the reality is different!
It reminds of what Neil would have said....'Rubbish!'
