Norton not Cutting

Ok - I have done something wrong.

I have a relatively new Dovo Best quality - about 60 shaves.
I wanted to touch it up so I got a Norton 4000/8000 and Norton lapping stone. Had some success with that (not great but enough to get the blade shaving again). As a side note, I think my stropping has been rounding the blade - but that is separate issue.

I added a Norton 220/1000 and lapped both side of that was well. i am lapping by making the pencil marks and working till they are all gone. I done "touch up" of the lapping each time I have tried the stones.

At this time the stones are essentially removing no metal. The white Norton 4000 is still white after 30 strokes. Snow white looking.

I tried lapping the stones on 229 grit paper over a sheet of glass. It seems to lap and I see stuff clouding the water. I have also put the Norton lapping stone on the paper but that does not seem to make any difference.

what have I done?

Thanks,
David

Possibilities:

1. Is your lapping removing the pencil marks?
2. The 4K does require quite a bit of lapping to come into its own.
3. 229 grit sandpaper? Is that correct? I would have gone with 400 or 600 as a minimum.

Let's see
yes - the marks are completely removed - this has been done twice with several other attempts without the marks. I am fairly sure the stones are flat.
The surfaces do appear to be even and consistent from edge to edge of each stone.
Sorry about the 229 - it seems that the nine is next door to the zero. I picked that since the progress with 320 was slow ....

Just now - the 8k is removing more metal that then 4k - I am pretty sure that is not normal.

thanks for the help...

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Originally Posted by DavidinTexas

Let's see
yes - the marks are completely removed - this has been done twice with several other attempts without the marks. I am fairly sure the stones are flat.
The surfaces do appear to be even and consistent from edge to edge of each stone.
Sorry about the 229 - it seems that the nine is next door to the zero. I picked that since the progress with 320 was slow ....

Just now - the 8k is removing more metal that then 4k - I am pretty sure that is not normal.

thanks for the help...

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How are you determining how much metal is being removed? Viewing the metal on the hone itself would in my opinion be a poor way to determine this, and I haven't heard of that as a means to sharpening a razor, really. When you're setting a bevel and needing to do a lot of work on a razor certainly you'll see some evidence of the razor's metal on the hone, but it's probably a poor way to determine success.

I think checking out the actual edge of the razor; with a magnifying glass or even with the naked eye is a good way. I use only three tests, really. Firstly, the Thumb Pad Test. Using my thumb I gently rub it sideways against the edge. By this I can tell (by experience) if the edge is sharp at all. The edge 'catches' the skin of my thumb. Secondly, as I start the honing, I shave my leg hairs as a test. If the razor pops hairs easily I go from the 4/8 to the Shapton 16k. The third test is of course the shave itself. In my opinion and experience that's the only set of tests I need.

To reiterate, in my experience I don't see a lot of metal on the hone unless I'm doing a LOT of honing (setting a bevel).

It sounds to me that you are lapping correctly. I use the Norton lapping stone and although many talk of other options I find the Norton lapping stone adequate.

Hope this is of some help.

Carl

David, you might not be getting to the edge of the bevel.....yet. IMO, Dovo's come with a bevel which is way steep. You might need to do a felt tip marker test to see if you are getting to the edge, or just grinding down the top of the bevel. Paint the entire bevel with a marksalot or similar, lay the blade flat on the 1000 stone and go several strokes. Look at the edge carefully under magnification. If you see any remnants of the black on the very edge, I would say to tape the spine with a layer of electrical tape and get with the 1000 until this test is positive. Change the tape frequently. As the ink disappears, the bevel is reaching the edge! Then, and only then, will you be ready to begin. A new piece of tape and then begin. JMO

OK - to be clear - I am not using the metal on the stone to gauge the sharpness of the blade or to gauge the amount of honing i have done. But when it seems to take 100-200 strokes to get any kind of sharpness (based on shaving arm hair) AND I am not seeing any metal on the 4k - then I wonder what is happening.

i also tried marking the edge (red sharpie). the red slowly disappeared - reasonably evenly - but it took maybe 10 strokes.

It seems that I see much more metal on the 8k (yellow) than I see on the white (4k). Once I got to the 8k i have a nice, very shiny, edge. It shaves arm hair well. I plan to strop, gently, and test shave in the morning.

Once again - I appreciate everyone's help and ideas.

Also where did you get the razor from and or who has honed it before?

good point - I bought the blade from Vintage Blades LLC - so I understand that it should have come to me in good shape. It did seem to work well - until my poor stropping caused an issue.

Sorry don't have any experience with them. But good starting point for you would be to email them and see if they used tape to originally hone the blade. If so you will have to ether use tape or reset the bevel without tape.

The swarf on my 8k (and 1k and pretty much everything else) becomes noticeable faster than it does on my 4k as well. That's normal. It's odd that the white one doesn't show swarf as well, eh?

Rub the spine/toe corner of the razor over part of the stone - if it leaves a line, you're cutting metal.

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Originally Posted by HNSB

The swarf on my 8k (and 1k and pretty much everything else) becomes noticeable faster than it does on my 4k as well. That's normal. It's odd that the white one doesn't show swarf as well, eh?

Rub the spine/toe corner of the razor over part of the stone - if it leaves a line, you're cutting metal.

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My 4 k turns black with swarf almost immediately upon beginning honing. If I go to the 8 k and I get any blackening I know I havent' finished on the 4k. I lap the 4 k with a DMT 325 and it's good to go.Perhaps you actually aren't hitting the edge and just getting the top of the bevel. The magic marker idea is a good one.

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Originally Posted by DavidinTexas

good point - I bought the blade from Vintage Blades LLC - so I understand that it should have come to me in good shape. It did seem to work well - until my poor stropping caused an issue.

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David, If you haven't been taping the spine, and as you said, doing hundreds of strokes you can put a lot of wear on the spine, especially if your using pressure. If you get uneven wear on the spine it can be a real headache to fix. I recommend you use tape on the spine while learning to prevent the wear. After you've honed for awhile and become fairly proficient, then decide if you want to continue taping or not.

For right now it might be a good idea to send it out to be professionally honed again. You can find those services listed in the classifieds and vendors section, both linked below.

If you decide to continue, the others have given some good advice.

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Originally Posted by Castel33

Sorry don't have any experience with them. But good starting point for you would be to email them and see if they used tape to originally hone the blade. If so you will have to ether use tape or reset the bevel without tape.

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Vintage Blades LLC has Lynn do their honing, so tape wasn't used and I'm sure it was shave ready and correct to start.


:gl:

Best Regards,
Howard :)

Edit: Here's a link to gssixgun honing videos. You'll find videos on most all the different hones, including the Nortons. Hope it helps.

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Originally Posted by DavidinTexas

...OK - to be clear - I am not using the metal on the stone to gauge the sharpness of the blade or to gauge the amount of honing i have done. But when it seems to take 100-200 strokes to get any kind of sharpness (based on shaving arm hair) AND I am not seeing any metal on the 4k - then I wonder what is happening...

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Set a bevel with the 1k, using circles. Don't progress to the 4/8 until you think it passes the TPT and shaves leg hair. When you progress to the 4/8, choose a system (aggressive pyramid, for instance) and don't stray. Pyramids are good for beginners. At times, I've found if you don't follow a system, you simply end up floundering all over the place doing this and that getting progressively more frustrated. A pyramid keeps you on a track.

When I first started I expected to see more metal or evidence on the hones. Then I concentrated on the technique, the wave being pushed by the edge, and the look and feel of the edge.

That's what it comes down to, actually; technique, the wave, the look and the feel. There is nothing else. But I know nothing really, in comparison to many...

I found I really needed to 'get into' the whole experience to actually hone. It really is a very simple but fully immersing thing; very Zen like. I don't mean to sound condescending at all, I know you have probably experienced this, just saying...

To all - once again - thank you for your help and support. Nice to feel that you are not alone.

I was trying to focus on the technique as Carl mentioned - but I was very concerned as it looked like nothing was happening. It actually took a couple of hundred strokes on the 4k before the blade would cut arm hair.

The 8k was very "zen" like for me. I got into a pattern where the blade just glided along - almost felt like it was not touching the stone - but it was as evidenced by the metal showing up and the very shiny edge that developed - almost looked like a mirror. i decided to stop there and waited until I could shave with the blade.

I did that this morning and it cut nicely - no more tugging and pulling. May have been the best shave to date with the straight - surely the most satisfying!

I think I will spend some time studying up on lapping stones - that should, if nothing else, make be feel better about the whole thing.

Thanks,
David

Well, David, sounds like success to me! Well done! Try not to over think it too much. Also, even though you've had great success at this stage, I think it's worth mentioning that you haven't touched up the edge at all. I once went on a ridiculous journey with e Norton 4/8 that ended in 610 laps and also a sharp razor, but in hindsight, and had been pointed out by those who know, there were some edges in there that would have been undone. (The pyramid is below. I post it only so you can have a laugh, not as a recomendation :o)

I feel a touch up is normally far less than what you've needed to do, and one thing you may need to ascertain is why you needed to do so much. It may be that you've created a new bevel (not that there's anything wrong with that) or indeed that it wasn't TOO bad to start with but that your honing actually degraded the edge somewhat when you started.

Anyhoo, all's well that ends well ;)

4k 8k
20 20 40
19 20 39
18 20 38
17 20 37
16 20 36
15 20 35
14 20 34
13 20 33
12 20 32
11 20 31
10 20 30
9 20 29
8 20 28
7 20 27
6 20 26
5 20 25
4 20 24
3 20 23
2 20 22
1 20 21

610 total

Thats no ordinary pyramid, Carl! :D



That's the GREAT PYRAMID OF MOUNT TORRENS!!:dropjaw:

After a year of honing and many many frustrated hours, I learned that I almost always do to many strokes, leaving a real nice edge behind in the dust and wondering where I went wrong!

I blamed my Norton for a long long time....:banghead:
Eric

Indeed, the old 4/8 is like a good dog. Beat on it all you want, but it will still be your best friend! ;)

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Thats no ordinary pyramid, Carl! :D



That's the GREAT PYRAMID OF MOUNT TORRENS!!:dropjaw:

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Yeah, coitenly is, Ollie, cointenly is!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Thats no ordinary pyramid, Carl! :D



That's the GREAT PYRAMID OF MOUNT TORRENS!!:dropjaw:

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Yeah, coitenly is, Ollie, cointenly is!

I can get quite a bit of black swarf on the 4k. After a set of circles and x-strokes the surface is pretty swarfed up.

Michael

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Yeah, coitenly is, Ollie, cointenly is!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Yeah, coitenly is, Ollie, cointenly is!

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Excuse me, Stanley! I believe you have double posted!!:rofl2:




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