Coticule help please

I'm new to the forum, and new to straight razor shaving in general. I bought a nice coti from the superior shave and a slurry stone. I've done lots of reading and watching videos, and practiced on my rock with the dilucot method every day, with mixed results. After having a little trouble reaching that keener edge, I emailed Jarrod at Superior Shave to see if he could tell what kind of rock I got. He said it appeared to be a La Grise, or possibly a slow dressante. I've read a lot about the la grise being a tough nut to crack, and being on the slow side. I practice with a Dovo SS olive wood and an old Melchior Brother carbon steel, and I have trouble getting past a certain point. I can get both blades to play the violin consistently before stropping, and occasionally can get popping in certain spots of blades after stropping, but something just doesn't seem right. I feel like I should have a much keener edge, but maybe I'm wrong. They shave fine, but I don't have anything to compare to except how my Dovo was when I bought it new from the apothecary here in Chicago, and he said he honed on a Naniwa. I've tried switching up slurry thicknesses, numbers of laps and cycles, finishing with Norton honing oil, etc. I take my time and am very diligent with keeping the strokes good. I actually even tried the dilucot on my little slurry stone, and it seemed a little keener on that stone. Not sure what layer or vein the slurry stone is. I tried the unicot method tonight on my main hone, and I just can't seem to get the edges keen enough to pop hair a lot with HHT. Could be my HHT method or the hair from my head not being good for the test. Sorry for the long post -- I guess I have 3 questions for anyone who would like to chime in. Does my bout look like a la grise to you, and if so, any tips that might make it different to hone with? Also, I know that an HHT is not the most definitive test, but should it definitely be popping hairs when ran across the blade to give a decent shave? Also, does the fact that the Dovo is stainless make it hone differently? Thanks in advance friends

Hi John, Welcome to SRP. Coticules in general , no matter which vein, take some 'getting to know'. This is why I feel lucky to have been started off with the old tried and true Norton 4/8 combo along with a 1k bevel setter. I was able to learn to hone on a stone that is consistently the same no matter who is using it. So for example when I asked for help there was a huge data base of experience to draw from.

Anyway, it takes practice and patience. I bought a lot of cheap vintage razors to practice on. Good but cosmetically nothing to look at. Also bought some pro honed to have something to compare my own efforts with.

I've done a lot of honing on coticules. I like them but I prefer getting up to speed on the Norton 4;/8 and then going to a coticule or an escher to finish. Going from square one on a coticule can be done by a knowledgeable honer ....... with a lot of time to waste .... but I'd rather bring it up to the finishing level with the 4/8. When you can get good shaves and HHT with the norton 8k you're ready for the naturals and the other synthetic finishers. AFAIC anyway. :gl:

I have no where near as much experience as most on here, but I have a vintage coticule combo that I have honed on. I have gone from 1k-bbw-coticule and 1k-norton 4k-norton 8k-coticule with great results, but I have also done the same and got not so great results. All I can say is coticules seem to have a mind of there own on what razors they want to make shave ready. From what I have seen and read it takes time to learn a particular coticule. I am still learning mine. As stated above practice and patience is key with honing any razor, but IMHO even more so with coticules that you haven't got the hang of yet. Good luck

The fact that you said your shaves are fine tells me one thing. your honing your razors well enough to say its a proper honing technique. the way I see it, don't fix something thats not broken. so if your shaves are fine, keep doing what your doing :)

Thanks for the replies, I actually noticed there was a seperate honing forum -- probably should have posted this there. I probably got a little anxious when I bought my coti, but after reading about how good of a mellow shave they gave, when it came time for me to buy a hone, I couldn't help but get one. I just hope that the one I have is not too difficult to get a decent edge with

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Originally Posted by sleekandsmooth

The fact that you said your shaves are fine tells me one thing. your honing your razors well enough to say its a proper honing technique. the way I see it, don't fix something thats not broken. so if your shaves are fine, keep doing what your doing :)

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Appreciate that, thanks! I guess that's the reinforcement I needed to hear, just to keep me from going out and buying a different set of hones to get a "shavable" edge. If it shaves and doesn't irritate, I guess that will do until I can get proficient with the coticules.

Your Bout does look very much like La Grise, in most cases they are good finisher's, not very good cutters. I wouldn't try to set any bevels with it. It's doesn't look like Dressante to me.

The last time I spoke to the folks at the quarry, All they were producing was "La Grise".

Also, given the fact that your stone is smaller, You'll have to do more work than normal to produce results. Each Coticule is different, and it will take time for you to learn yours.

It should be good for touch up's and finishing.

P.S. I totally agree with Jimmy. I'd get proficient with the Norton 4/8 before moving on to the naturals. Once you can get a good edge off the Norton 8k, Try a few laps on the Coti, using it as a finisher.

Unfortunately, I think you will have to buy some synthetic stones, and see if you can make any different headway with them. I can't tell you which vein it's from. Nobody has convinced me so far that it matters in the least which vein a coticule is from. I think MY razors should definitely be very easily cutting MY hairs at any point along the edge. But that isn't something that'll help YOU with YOUR razors. Which is something you already had figured out. Some say that stainless blades are more difficult to hone. Others say there's no difference except for time on the stones. I'm of the opinion that stainless razors are more difficult to get a good edge on. But that might change as I hone more stainless razors. I guess the theme is:YMMV. I hate to do that, but I really feel like it's the truth of it for all three questions. Coticules are so different, one from another, even within veins. There might be ten guys that say they have a Dressante, and it's the bees knees. Guy eleven buys one, and it'll never do anything for him. The ten guys will say it's his fault, or they'll throw out the common thing about each one being unique. Well if they're all unique, then we may as well toss the vein names. But for some reason...we don't.

So if my rock is indeed a la grise, it might be a great finisher for my blades that are already pretty close. I do know that the rock makes slurry pretty easily. The grains turn bright white and really stand out just from running water over it. Also, I can almost get slurry to form even with just water by doing half x strokes with a lot of pressure

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

Unfortunately, I think you will have to buy some synthetic stones, and see if you can make any different headway with them. I can't tell you which vein it's from. Nobody has convinced me so far that it matters in the least which vein a coticule is from. I think MY razors should definitely be very easily cutting MY hairs at any point along the edge. But that isn't something that'll help YOU with YOUR razors. Which is something you already had figured out. Some say that stainless blades are more difficult to hone. Others say there's no difference except for time on the stones. I'm of the opinion that stainless razors are more difficult to get a good edge on. But that might change as I hone more stainless razors. I guess the theme is:YMMV. I hate to do that, but I really feel like it's the truth of it for all three questions. Coticules are so different, one from another, even within veins. There might be ten guys that say they have a Dressante, and it's the bees knees. Guy eleven buys one, and it'll never do anything for him. The ten guys will say it's his fault, or they'll throw out the common thing about each one being unique. Well if they're all unique, then we may as well toss the vein names. But for some reason...we don't.

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Yeah, I see what you're saying. The guy at the apothecary that honed my blade after I bought it said he'd never heard of coticules, but would look into it. He sells and uses Naniwas, among other things. To be honest, I used that edge for two months only stropping, and I can't really say whether it was sharper or not -- I never did an HHT with his honing edge, just shaved with it. I'll keep at it with practicing the coti edge, but I may end up buying a new hone soon if all else fails. I wish I wasn't so quick to try and hone my Dovo now

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Originally Posted by PipefitterJohn

Appreciate that, thanks! I guess that's the reinforcement I needed to hear, just to keep me from going out and buying a different set of hones to get a "shavable" edge. If it shaves and doesn't irritate, I guess that will do until I can get proficient with the coticules.

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One thing you need to remember is that if you are only going to be maintaining a razor/razors, you don't need a full set of stones. what I mean by a full set is, a stone that starts with a low grit as well as more stones that gradually go up in grit rating sometimes even all the way up to 16k or higher. A full set like that is only needed if you are having to set bevels and work your way through the grits to get a shave ready razor. usually only people that like to restore razors or hone razors as a job for customers will need all those stones. in your case, you have 2 razors that are shave ready by the sounds of it and as long as you take care of them properly and strop them, you really only need one high grit stone such as your coticule too give the razors a little touch up once in a while if they need it. you shouldn't have to buy more hones really......sorry i am blabbing on here lol, just hate to see people thinking that they need so many different hones to maintain a straight razor. I'm sure you will come to love your coti very much and will be able to maintain and keep a great edge on your blades. I hope all goes well for you, cheers!
shayne.

You know what? I take it back! I forgot that my credo is never to ever encourage anyone to buy more hones. Have that fellah at the apocathary hone a blade for you on the naniwas again, and test against that first. That'll be like 20 bucks I'm guessing. Gotta say I'm a little surprised that someone at a razor place wouldn't know anything about coticules. That's damnable in my book. :p

There are differences in Coticules even within Veins, as mentioned. Dressante, La petite blance, la grosse blance, Les Let are all supposedly great all around coti's, but these are natural stones. No two are exactly alike. Each vein has different layers, etc....I'm no geoligist, but I do have quite a few Coticules, Heck, I used to sell them. I can tell you they differ from stone to stone, and can be daunting to a new honer, much like Jnats.

Usually the harder stones are better finishers, and softer ones are better cutters. You can scratch the surface with your fingernail, If you see nothing, it's hard. If you see it very distinctly, it's soft, etc...This test makes more sense when you have handled many coticules.

Raise a slurry, and do your half strokes, see how long it takes the slurry to darken, that's a good indication of it's cutting speed. Darkening slurry usually means metal is being removed.

Wow, you guys are really a big help. Yeah, I was surprised when the guy at the store wasn't familiar with coticules either, but could be that he has a system that works and he figures that it's good enough. It's a great place though, they have all the good soaps and a plethora of other European grooming products and such. I think I will turn off panic mode and just hold off on a new hone for a bit and work with my coticules. When I scratch the surface with my fingernail, I can see a white scratch mark pretty easily. Also, I think it cuts pretty well, as I get a good grey slurry pretty quickly. Maybe I should try less laps when I'm diluting or more water to see if maybe I've been overhoning the ede.

it is practically impossible to overhone a blade with a coticule.

take your time from beginning to end. try honing it without raising a slurry and using a bit of dish soap mixed into your water.

it takes a few strokes to hone a straight razor and one bad pass to ruin your edge.

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Originally Posted by Wajiro

it takes a few strokes to hone a straight razor and one bad pass to ruin your edge.

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So true. My coticule is 1.5" wide and took alittle practice to get used to. There was a couple times where I got right to the last few strokes and tried to rush and I tilted the razor and ended up running the edge along the corner. Needless to say I ended up having to redo everything after that. I found if I started to want to rush or was honing for awhile and was getting tired of doing it it was better to stop and walk away and let myself cool down for awhile before going back. Patience, patience, patience that is key.

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Originally Posted by PipefitterJohn

When I scratch the surface with my fingernail, I can see a white scratch mark pretty easily.

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Yeah, your stone looks just like mine which is a La Grise. It's a softer stone & will give a nice mellow edge, but they require a lot of patience. I know that when I first got mine, I was convinced that coticule honing just wasn't for me; could not get a decent edge to save my life!

Then slowly but surely, I experimented with circles, varying the pressure & dilutions, and everything started to click. It takes a while though; definitely not something you can just sit down and do....don't worry though, you'll get there! :)

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Originally Posted by PipefitterJohn

I think I will turn off panic mode and just hold off on a new hone for a bit and work with my coticules.

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There's been a lot of good feeback, but I think this is the best piece of advice of all so far - and you've given it to yourself. Here's WHY I think it's the best advice so far:

The very first thing you said in your opening post was "I'm new to straight shaving and to honing." Then, just a few lines later you stated you seem to be getting decent edges and decent shaves, 'but don't have anything to compare to except my Dovo when it was new'

In essence, you're aiming for a goal (HHT) with...

• no honing experience...
• on a type of hone that is absolutely wonderful but can be one of the most time-consuming to learn...
• AND, you're trying to do it without any real baseline/foundation to work from. i.e. you've only experienced one 'shave-ready' edge from one person

I'm not saying the apothecary can't put a good edge on a razor. But while his may not be a bad edge, it may not be a great edge either...

My advice would be to:

1. Stick to your decision to 'turn off panic mode and keep the coticule for now'
2. As long as it seems to have a decent edge on it, use your Dovo as your regular shaver
3. Take $35 or $45 of the money you just 'saved' (by not jumping to the conclusion that you have to buy more hones) and pick up a cheap shave ready razor (or TWO) from the classifieds or someplace like Whipped Dog - i.e. from someone known on the forums as being a bit of a honemeister - and experience a second 'shave ready' edge so that you'll have a clearer, more defined goal of what a shave-ready edge can be
4. Use that cheap razor as your practice blade for learning how to release the full and magical potential of your coticule

If you give yourself a stronger, wider foundation to stand on when you take aim at your honing goal, you'll stand a much better chance of not only hitting it, but also recognizing that you've hit it.

Just my humble two cent, hope it helps...

Best of luck - keep at it and your efforts will definitely pay off.

For the record, I NEVER pass the hanging hair test. Not even with a razor honed by Gssixgunn

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Originally Posted by sleekandsmooth

in your case, you have 2 razors that are shave ready by the sounds of it and as long as you take care of them properly and strop them, you really only need one high grit stone such as your coticule too give the razors a little touch up once in a while if they need it.

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Totally agree. I've been maintaining my edges with a coticule that looks similar to yours (I bought mine from Jarrod too, about 6 months ago), and I've been getting great shaves off it. I never make a slurry; just do about 10-20 X-strokes with lather to refresh the edge.

I've also got a Norton 4/8, and I use the 4k side if the edge gets too dull. But normally I don't need to do that.

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Originally Posted by Magpie

For the record, I NEVER pass the hanging hair test. Not even with a razor honed by Gssixgunn

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Pretty much same here, although my razors were passing the HHT when they came back from Oz. Personally I'm not too concerned about any of the sharpness tests besides the shave test--i.e., the one that matters. :)

By the way, as others have said, that stone does indeed look like a La Grise. Your description of how it behaves would confirm that.
La Grise's are slow cutters: with a fast cutter the slurry would turn black soon, with the La Grise I used, the slurry never turned black but remained grey. By the way, when finishing on my La Grise (it auto-slurries as well), I rinse the stone a lot so there's no slurry at all on the stone

I have been honing my razors for about three years and here is what i have noticed and learned:

I learned on the norton set with a DMT flatener and progressed to the Shaptons, throwing in a few super stones and the such. I think I have mastered the synthetics for the most part. I continue to learn every time I hone but it is much easier to get an edge on the man made hones first because they are so consistent. I have sense gotten many natural stones and have found the learning is different in that they are all different. The etcher stones seem to be more consistant than the other naturals but still; every one slurries different and that tells me that they aren't the same.

With the coticules I find there is more differences in the yellow side than the BBW side. I have five coties and they seem all different in one way or another on the yellow side.

The way it sounds is that you have a system that seems to work for you, so you can play all you want and still go back to the tried and true if you have too.

Like Lynn says at the end of all his posts..."have fun"
Stingray

Thanks for all the help guys, a lot of great advice. I just shaved with my Dovo last night, after taking Gary's advice and trying to finish with a unicot edge after my dilucot, with 2 pieces of electrical tape. I was still getting same HHT results, only mostly violin with occasionally grabbing and popping on some spots pre-strop. I didn't try the HHT after stropping. The shave was definitely good -- I find that with the MWF I've been shaving with, the key is to just lather small parts of my face at a time, because my stroke is still kind of new and slow, and the Mitchell's dries out so fast. It makes a world of difference with the feel and closeness of the shave if I hit the sweet spot with the lather. Gonna try to hone the Melchior Brothers razor tonight, and experiment and see what kind of edge I get. My thumb pad tests are feeling much better just in the past few days.

Oh -- and I do notice that when finishing on water, my stone will indeed auto-slurry if I use enough pressure and pull enough of an angle with my x-strokes. I noticed that last night with the unicot, when I saw a little white residue on the electrical tape and looked closer at the water.

Hey, John.
'Glad you're getting good help here. I've done a little over 120 blades on 3 diff cotis, and only once or twice equaled the edges from the jnat or thuri. I could get shaveable edges every time, but only one or two that lit my face up w/ a big smile.

On the HHT. I'm w/ the guy that spoke of not getting HHT response from Glen's edges. Two reasons - both of which amount to not knowing what I was doing very well. Some hair will not work w/ HHT. Hair varies *ALOT*. My head hair averages (7 samples measured) at .0018". Chest hair avgs .0033". You're smart for recognizing the limiation of the HHT - but you may find ways to make it useful/helpful.

In my case, I suspect flaw(s) in my stroke but that doesn't square w/ the results from the thuri & jnat. One thing I did try on multiple naturals is doing last light finishing strokes in a spine-leading/stropping stroke direction. It made a difference in both sharpness and smoothness. Maybe it'll help. If it doesn't - don't continue. You already have shaveable edges, so you've nothing to lose by try lots of variations. Don't forget Lynn did a vid recently on coticule honing. His method is fast and efficient - mostly circles.

Every time I read of someone struggling w/ a coti, I'm ready to sing harmony. They were a bugger for me.

Jimmy's response is spot on & worth re-reading.

Your stone is auto-slurring, so I see no need in building a slurry before you start honing. When I was giving the coti my all, I learned about "slurry-dull". I still have a coti somewhere, but it surely has dust on it.

In closing, you will hardly ever hear an experienced honer recommend a coti or any other natural to learn honing as they ALL have a personality of their own. If they do, I would question their expertise. The normal recommendation from most of us is this: Once a baseline of knowledge of honing is gained off the synthetics, then work the naturals into the mix. I personally love natural stones, but most of my honing is still done on synthetics & only finished on a natural. WHen I was learning to hone I kept a razor honed by a pro so that I could compare the shave. Once I thought I was doing pretty good, I did some razor swapping and simply sent out razors to be evaluated by some that I knew had experience.

Enjoy the ride & as Lynn says...have fun!!

I agree with the above that a natural is not the best way to start, there is 3 variables in the honing equation, the hone, the razor and you!
If you can get it down to just 1 variable, you, then it will be much easier.

When I wanted to learn honing the first time, I listen to guys here advise me to start learning with norton 4k/8k,
I held on the temptation to buy naturals. And I'm glad that I been learning so much that way, after I passed the norton then I start trying chinese, then coti & thuringian . Listen & learn from folks that have experiences makes things easier for me

btw, from my experience the unicot does HHT better

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Originally Posted by sigit666

When I wanted to learn honing the first time, I listen to guys here advise me to start learning with norton 4k/8k,
I held on the temptation to buy naturals. And I'm glad that I been learning so much that way, after I passed the norton then I start trying chinese, then coti & thuringian . Listen & learn from folks that have experiences makes things easier for me

btw, from my experience the unicot does HHT better

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I would advise doing a unicot, pretty much down to the letter as it is explained here. It's pretty much a fool-proof method, depending on what condition your edge was in to begin with. If it's not convexed or microchipped it should work just like that.

It's not very difficult. Unicot is actually quite simple, and gives you good results pretty much every time. It'll also give you a sharper edge than dilucot, because of the increased bevel angle causing the abrasion to work at a slightly higher angle at the very 'edge of the edge'.

This one is not mine but it is exactly the way it is for me: I have never had a good shave with a razor that didn't measure out on my HHT after finishing. Ever. Even more: I have found that if it doesn't, it will most likely hardly cut anything at all.

I put a unicot edge on my Dovo over a week ago, and did not get a great HHT, but I shaved a couple times with that edge and did enjoy the shave. I've actually had pretty decent shaves with all the edges I've had as of late, but still not the kind of keen edges I'm sure most of you are used to. Definitely good close shaves with 3 passes though. I think it's my particular coti that is a real challenge. I've got one of my best edges yet on my carbon steel razor, using the ellipticot method. I think I'm going to keep that edge on there for a while and shave with it -- sending my Dovo off through coticule.be to get a professional coticule edge on it, so I at least have a known variable to compare to. I'll keep all you folks updated, of course.