No, thank you Alx. The link I posted I sourced from your site which I consider a primary source of information on Japanese natural stones. Thank you for the information on this thread as well, very useful,
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No, thank you Alx. The link I posted I sourced from your site which I consider a primary source of information on Japanese natural stones. Thank you for the information on this thread as well, very useful,
You are very welcome, and I hope you get a chance to read my somewhat controversial blog everyonce in a while. AlxQuote:
Originally Posted by Bayamontate
As always Alex, thanks for sharing your knowledge and work expertise with us. I not only enjoy your blog I enjoy gazing at the amazing stones in your online inventory.
Sorry but that is quite big misinformation there !!Quote:
Originally Posted by alx
there is many Ozuku kiita Shoubu Kiitas at 5000 USD and even more !
I Personally seen some other then Nakayama stones was sold at much more then Nakayama
For the gray stones also, believe me i have seen Gray stones sell for more then yellow stones. So it is not as simple as you describe !
Level 5+++ stones is charged by some that knows Jnats, for beginners in japan or newbes yes they cherish more lv 3 stones, Different stones for different tasks !
Why so Nakayama Kiitas Lv 5+++ almost 150 % more expensive then softer Kiitas
For the kava all recommend to lap it down stones over 1k USD and up usually come with skin gone or laped down !!!!!
No one in Japan can recognize stones by skin or Kawa that is quite of the biggest lie i ever have heard !
Even some of the biggest stone collectors in japan i have asked and all miners include Ohira miner told me its no way to tell !!!
You can only tell by testing the stone! Only couple of people in japan can do that !
Again a lot of misinformation and confusion
All the time, my pleasure.Quote:
Originally Posted by alx
LOL if you know what those stamps mean then you will not be so curious
To much information may confuse you even more
We can get into what the stamps mean later, that would be useful information, but you'd figure that a professional Japanese barber would lap the stone before he used it, therefore removing the stamps.
It is stamped after he have used it by someone els.
Only thing it say that it is Jnat and its for razors :)
And BTW did you not read my copyright at the button of my page ?
Maybe i wrong here but it is quite offensive to copy something without even asking
My apologies, OK, it was stamped afterward, it is a beautiful stone.
Actually his use of the screenshot is not a copyright violation.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxim207
It does not fall under copyright, it's fair use!
2nd!
One reason I've chosen to leave the j-nats to the high rollers. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by maxim207
Attachment 119266
Sir:Quote:
Originally Posted by maxim207
You do have some very strong opinions about stones, and I can appreciate that. To suggest that some stones you have seen sell in japan for this or that is fine. I believe you and what you have seen.
On the other hand, if I am not mistaken, I believe you have called me a liar. This I do not appreciate, and in fact I am quite offended by your tone.
Sir, you would do well to provide the best information you have at hand regarding these posts, and do so in the most positive way that you can. Counter the information with better information. That is all any of us are looking for.
Alx
JimmyHAD, Come on, you can cheat a little on the side can't you?
I won't tell! ;)
Alx
I borrowed a nakayama kiita from a friend that he bought from you. I have been looking on you site for a long time now, but i have to say it is a quite high price on the stones I want :(
My stone from Maksim (Ozuku mizu asagi nashiji) was under $400 and came with a set of 3 asano naguras and a wakasa tomo nagura and produces an insanely sharp velvety edge. If i were to buy an escher that is 8X3, approx the size of my stone, or even a select grade coticule I'd be paying just about the same and I find this set up to be more versatile thanks to the naguras.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
OK :) If you read my post above i actually do.Quote:
Originally Posted by alx
But here you go a longer version
Did you know that Shoubudani mine is super close to Nakayama and many stones from Kato and Maruichi was actually from Shoubudani and not Nakayama.Quote:
About all of these Ozuko & Shobudani stamped stones. Those mines closed about a hundred years ago, those miners never even thought of stamping their stones, they only sold them by the 100 kilo to the wholesalers. There never were copyrighted stamps for Ozuko or Shobudani when the mines were open so all these stones you guys are buying are just newly slabbed up rock from storage and stamped with newly make up stamps. Notice that they are all fresh ink. The stone is millions of years old just like the other mines but the product is fresh. No one owns the Ozuko mine and this is why the stamps are being used.
Like i mentioned before there is plenty of Kiitas that is more expensive then from Nakayama. Kiita color is just popular because its looks not performance !Quote:
The kiita stone that Stefan mentioned at $5,000 is not a new thing in Japan. But I can assure you that there are no Ohira kiita at that price, or Ozaki kiita or Ozuko kiita or Shobudani kiita at that price. Why?
First lets assume that the miners and wholesalers and the collectors and the carpenters who can build a house using only joints and were born and raised in Japan and can speak Japanese, might know a little bit more about stones then us here in the U.S.. Why? The reason is because by the experts the Nakayama stones have alwasy been regarded to be superior to the other mines. It is no mystery that some mine has to have better stones, and the experts in Japan have recognized that for hundreds of years. Just like Ferreri's are faster than Fords. Sure there are a handful of Fords that can compete but as a whole the Nakayama stones have always been better and it is just a fact of geology and geography.
And that is confirmed by many stone experts from Japan even Iwasaki san and Other stone miners
Kiita stones is only valuable because they looks and ease of seen mud.
Geology and Geography is just wrong as they are all same of the same Geological mountain and thats why they called Honyama stones.
In Japan many do not even care about mines and i have seen Honyama stones been sold for 3 mill yen and up without even mentioning the mine and the strata
Again wrong, as plenty of stones without Kawa been sold very expensive in Japan !Quote:
Back to the stamps. Hatanaka-san is trying to maintain his copyrights, but there are no owners of Shobudani or Ozaki or copyrights to defend, so there will be some stones that are stamped Ozuko that are not really Ozuko stones. They could just as easily be stamped Tommy's stone. Ozuku is not a mine or a place now, just a name of a memory. Any plain gray stone on all 6 sides is just that, a plain gray stone. If that stone has some kawa skin on one side or the back it can be traced to a particular mine with some accuracy. Ozuko is trendy now and ripe for false statements or stamps, but if it is just a hard gray stone its no big deal at $150-$500 a pop. When a stone goes over $1000 it should have some kawa to deciphor or of a particular strata that is easily recognizable like the strikingly lovely renge from Ohira, the diagonal grain of Mizukihara or the before mentioned kiita of Nakayama.
Actually the cleanest Asagis (gray stones is more valuable than Asagis with skin and uneven structure )
Yes rarity is important but so is looks of the stone thats what determined the price many times its not even performance, as i told in my previous post Carpenders that know Japanese stones they prefer those hard Gray stones you call waist. Many people like you just don't know really how to use them. And people that come carpenter background they prefer not to use harder stones.Quote:
Rarity is important in Japan but in the trades quality is king, every mine in the Atago area has kiita and renge layers, but some mines stand out above all others for particular strata. I can assure you that Nakayama has level 5+++ stones, it is just that in Japan those 5+++ stones are not well thought of, too hard-too scratchy-too slow. With a diamond nagura they can be used, or with Aichi nagura they make a great platform to sharpen with your expensive nagura grit but the stones provide very little action with just clear water. All the mines in Japan produced very hard gray stones and most of it has never been sold and now are in storage or were crushed into abrasive powder for polishing lenses and such.
Again here i hope we talk about stones that is for razors and not for tool ???
Also like i told before different stone for different purposes.
I been told in Japan that customers that go in and buy stones in many cases look for Beautiful stones and thats what they like. Thats why all the Kiita hype and thats why they are Rare now. They are called golden stones and the more pure they are the more they cost. If you find a Ozuku kiita that is so pure belive me it will cost as much as Nakayama kiita !
I do not have any strong opinions about jnats all my info is baist by talking with many many Jnat wholesalers, Japanese jnat users that use them every day in Japan
And some of the miners that is left.
Some of them lie or just not telling whole story. Thats why its important to ask as many as possible and collectors too.
And also do your own research instead of only ask one person from Ohira mine and think that all is beautiful truth :)
Sorry my mistake :D
This thread has steered quite a bit a way from my original questions. It seems that with my naive questions I've opened a can worms...
Anyhow, this morning I've shaved with a full-hollow 6/8 Solingen razor that I had finished on the Nakayama (slurry generated with light rubbing with a fine diamond plate as I'm lacking a tomo nagura) and it was really good :). Just as good as off my Oozuku or old thuri. So, it's a definately a good finisher, maybe even great (but not "magical:angel: ;), if there's such a thing...).
Best regards
Jörg
P.S. Now that there are so many experts present in the thread: Anyone able to translate the stamp? Thanks!
This is what happens when it comes to jnats...
Sorry I cant translate the kanji.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jollo74
It just say Honyama toishi from 330mate
Hello Jorg
You've proved your patience big time in waiting for your answer. The stamp reads from top down and the way the stone is stamped on the side it read from right to left with the 3 small rectangles being at the end. Also the useage is sort of tricky but I will explain that.
Sei- (or Sho) true
Hon- original
Yama- (or Zan) mountain or temple
Hon- original
Kaku- real
Hin- object
Some of these words, according to my wife, have more than one meaning or even pronounciation. For instance the kanji for Yama is common for mountain, but it can also be read as Zan and used to describe a temple. According to her, the term HonYama by itself is not found in the dictionary, the term HonYama is a made up term used in the mine industry, sort of like BestBuy is used to describe the retail chain here in the U.S. We all know what best and buy mean but BestBuy means something more specific. Well the same in Japan with Hon Yama or some people will say Honyama. For instance, house wife in or a full time office worker might not understand the literal reading Hon Yama is referring to a stones used for sharpening things from a little valley near Kyoto, but would most likely think of it in terms of a temple.
Because Nakaoka-san of 330Mate is using this stamp over and over again it appears that he had this stamp made up and he might have even registered it with the Kyoto Toishi Union. The words in this stamp are not unique but because these ink stamps are handmade they retain certain imperfections or stylization like the boarder pattern or size that is unique to it and it alone.
Good luck with your stone, it really lapped up beautifully. What does the back look like, any kawa/skin?
Also I am glad that some fellows have broken out of the gate and are using a diamond plate for raising a slurry. I have always been a proponent. good luck, Alex Gilmore aka. Alx
Thanks Maxim and Alex for your reply and an extra BIG thank you to Alex for taking the time and effort for your extensive and fascinating explanation :D :D :D!
I'm travelling atm so I'll have to wait until Wednesday to load up a picture of the unlapped side.
With regard to using a diamondplate - well, it was more out of a necessety as I don't have a tomo nagura and don't want to cut a piece out of the stone. It does work, though I don't have any comparison.
Best regards
Jörg
I love the way "what does this say?" can turn into a full blown debate and knowledge brawl.
For a moment, I was worried that this thread was about to become toxic. :rofl2:
Diamond plates work great for slurry on Jnats as long as they are 1) high quality (no diamonds getting loose & mucking up your finish) 2) well broken in (so they don't tear out big chunks of stone, but rather rub away gently at the very surface 3) not used w/ too much pressure (or you can get chunky slurry that won't break down).Quote:
Originally Posted by jollo74
Especially on the hard ones as those will glaze over readily w/ swarf & broken down grit particles without being cleaned off regularly. This is probably why these hard stones work so well w/ nagura (the abrasive nagura removes the glaze on the surface). If you don't have nagura or find the cost too off-putting, then you really will need a diamond plate IME if you want to still get good results from a very hard stone.
As far as figuring on Jnats, I don't even begin to claim to know all that goes into pricing, but both nashiji & renge are supposed to increase cutting power & cutting power is prized (gets the job done faster).
I find the diamond plats give a to coarse slurry for a finisher, chunky slurry (good word, thanks).
I do however use a diamond plate on other lower grit stones and like it.
Here's a quick snapshot:Quote:
Originally Posted by alx
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46...psb5602039.jpg
@PA23-250: I'm using a fine very well broken in diamond plate with very little pressure so i hope it's OK - maybe one day I'll get some naguras, including a hard tomo to try it out.
Cheers
Jörg
The asano naguras, botan, tenjoyu and mejiro are working incredibly well for me! My tomo nagura is from a lvl 5 wakasa and takes quite some time to build slurry on my lvl 5+ Ozuku mizu asagi nashiji but does a wonderful job as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by jollo74
Apparently koma naguras are the finest but the difference between the mejiro and koma is insignificant, from what i've read; they are also quite expensive and nearly impossible to find.
+1 on Asano Naguras, they are a dream to use, keep everything clean and use them in order, it's really easy.
Go for the real deal stamped ones, then you know what you get!
If you later get any mystery white nagura you can always fit it in your system.
I've got a few that I would rather fit in a trashcan.
Koma... Ohh, I wish, but then it's not really necessary, it will fill the gap between Mejiro and Tomo but also give you one more time to clean everything.
Iwasaki recommends Botan Nagura and then either Tenjou or Mejiro, the gap between the two last ones are also quite small.
What Tomo Nagura works best om your stone you have to try out yourself, maybe you have any meetups in Germany that could take care of that.
Any Tomo will do the job but there is differences, it all depends on how it interacts with the base stone and how you want your edge.
Good luck and keep playing around with it, nothing beats hours on the stones!
I too thought that Koma wasn't necessary until I tried it, IMO, it does add a marked level of refinement to the edge. Can you go without it, of course, but if you get the chance to get one, do it.
I read that the old-school Japanese don't use diamond plates and that's enough for me, I don't use them on JNats. I do however like using them on synthetics.
Just to throw a spanner in the works, there is always a chance that a random hard particle is released from your nagura that will scratch just as there is a chance a random diamond pops off your diamond plate. I don't think are any statistics about frequency of these events occuring. Life is just plain risky sometimes. :)
